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petetherock

The Divide Across The Ocean - On Cables And Amplifiers

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Firstly, discussions on cables and amplifier differences tend to cause a lot of heat and it's not my intent to do so, I am just asking for opinions on this.

I have noticed in looking up US forums versus those in UK, Australia and elsewhere, that there is a divide in the opinion of regarding whether there are differences in cable performance, be it power cables or speakers or interconnects, and some also think that if you equalise the levels of amps, there is no difference there either.

The Americans tend to think it's total hogwash, this is a bit of a stereotype as some there do believe it, but in general, the opinion is that, there is no need to get another more than bell wire or a kettle cord.

IMHO, I have heard some differences, but I tend to subscribe to the 10% rule and limit my expense on cables / HDMI etc to that amount. I have also heard difference in amp quality and I am happy to pay more for it. Higher grade amps will also sound better due to their better power supplies and the potential increase in dynamics.

What do you think?

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I hope everyone can approach this evenhandedly, instead of getting too heated up on this..

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Well I don't know how objective it is, but I swopped between a monoprice and a Audioquest Cinnamon cable and the difference was obvious.

I also look at Double blind tests, but I don't feel bad spending some money on cables. Others may differ and that's ok with me.

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Others may differ and that's ok with me.

Pretty much sums up my attitude as well. Not fussed what anyone spends their own money on but I tend to treat subjective assessments with a grain of salt.

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I hope everyone can approach this evenhandedly, instead of getting too heated up on this..

What is the definition of "same", and the inverse "different" anyway in audio?

People gets heated over this because everybody have different ideas of what is the same, and what is different. Once people sort this out, folks will begin to discuss this rationally... :P

I'd just like to see the objective evidence.

As above, objective only comes when "same" is defined and agreed by all...

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As above, objective only comes when "same" is defined and agreed by all...

One of my biggest frustrations with this conversation is the obfuscation, vagueness and excuses. "Same" means "same", "different" means "not same". It's never been hard to pin that down, not now, not then, not ever. You don't need to be able to describe in exhaustive detail what Orange juice tastes like to be able to test if Orange juice tastes different to Apple juice - you just need to compare them.

For there to be a "result" all there needs to be is a finding (of whatever kind) that is reliable, repeatable and verifiable.

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One of my biggest frustrations with this conversation is the obfuscation, vagueness and excuses. "Same" means "same", "different" means "not same". It's never been hard to pin that down, not now, not then, not ever. You don't need to be able to describe in exhaustive detail what Orange juice tastes like to be able to test if Orange juice tastes different to Apple juice - you just need to compare them.

For there to be a "result" all there needs to be is a finding (of whatever kind) that is reliable, repeatable and verifiable.

+1

It's not easy to be exactly the same, and hence the different sonic signatures. eg, how do we equalise a silver and copper cable?

Use an external resistor to fix the resistance difference?

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Bell wire the same as appropriate gauge copper, I certainly don't prescribe to that. With speaker cable I believe there are differences but once you get the right gauge and of reasonable quality there is probably not much (if anything) to be gained by going further. Interconnects - good quality connections are important so it is a tight fit and no noise is introduced into the system, but interconnects are short generally so again I think a reasonable quality is good and then afterwards diminishing returns. Power cables I think have been done to death.

So I guess I prescribe to the theory that there is crap cables, there are good cables, and then there are cables that give no more than the good cables but cost a packet.

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+1

It's not easy to be exactly the same, and hence the different sonic signatures. eg, how do we equalise a silver and copper cable?

Use an external resistor to fix the resistance difference?

First thing's first though. Show that there is an audible difference created by the different cables (ie not psychoacoustic). Do that and you'll have the whole world sitting up and paying attention.

Then you can work out what causes it.

(EDIT) FWIW - don't take this as my insitance that you need or have to do this to satisfy me. I stand by what I said originally, I really don't care what anyone spends their money on, I just apply the "grain of salt" filter to any conclusions that people want to draw.

Edited by ajm

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Then you can work out what causes it.

I like folks who describe audio as a journey.

Think of driving a car from point A to point B. Folks have different appreciations to the journey, some

1/ likes to be chauffeured all the way

2/ likes to enjoy the scenery along the way

3/ Likes the short long straights where they can go at full speed

4/ likes the bending curves

5/ likes the solitude so will drive the slowest possible route

6/ likes time trials and want to get to point B in the quickest time

Trying to argue amps, caps or cables sound the same/different is pointless as everybody has different needs and things like this is impossible to quantify objectively as it's 100% subjective. i.e. you can't make everybody happy (at least I don't think it's possible). Trying to find the "cause" when everybody behaves so differently is impossibly complex...

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... Trying to find the "cause" when everybody behaves so differently is impossibly complex...

We're still at trying to show a difference - at least one that is repeatable *yawn* ....

oh who give a fu**

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One of my biggest frustrations with this conversation is the obfuscation, vagueness and excuses. "Same" means "same", "different" means "not same". It's never been hard to pin that down, not now, not then, not ever. You don't need to be able to describe in exhaustive detail what Orange juice tastes like to be able to test if Orange juice tastes different to Apple juice - you just need to compare them.

For there to be a "result" all there needs to be is a finding (of whatever kind) that is reliable, repeatable and verifiable.

But thats comparing apples to oranges! :hyper:

Sorry, please resume normal programming.

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IMHO

The construct of a cable matters to pass these electrons ..

But not so much to change sound as to make sure the signal passes through properly. Hence I will spend on a well made cable and I believe difference materials have different conductance, so the sound can vary.

As for amps, it's the same thing. Good amps are well built, able to supply the current I need and not clip, but I can't see myself going into the exotic stuff for now.

Sensible is the key word.

I still believe speakers make the most difference, but I also believe cables and amps sound difference.

Once we get into digital processing, such as in AV amps, now I truly believe in differences. Because in the AV amps, you can emphasise different frequencies more.

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We're still at trying to show a difference - at least one that is repeatable *yawn* ....

My point above is you can't quantify the difference properly without a proper agreed reference...

How can you objectively show there is a difference when everybody has their own version of a reference?

Is this point too hard to understand?

oh who give a fu**

How about trying to discuss this in a non heated manner?

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My point above is you can't quantify the difference properly without a proper agreed reference...

How can you objectively show there is a difference when everybody has their own version of a reference?

Is this point too hard to understand?

See my point above about (oranges vs apples).

1. Take 2x "things"

2. Compare them (in whatever way you chose).

3. Are they the same or different?

[edit] - you seem to be focusing all the reasons you think differences can't be explained or understood. I'm trying (for some inexplicable reason) to try and get you back to steps 1 to 3.

How about trying to discuss this in a non heated manner?

It was meant to be flippant rather than heated. By the same token, there are only so many ways you can muddy this and try and make it complicated. The thing is I really cannot be bothered waiting to see if you can exhaust them all.

Edited by ajm

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This thread is gonna need more Panandol.

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See my point above about (oranges vs apples).

1. Take 2x "things"

2. Compare them (in whatever way you chose).

3. Are they the same or different?

Orange:

Kingdom: Plantae (unranked): Angiosperms (unranked): Eudicots (unranked): Rosids Order: Sapindales Family: Rutaceae Genus: Citrus Species:

C. × sinensis

Apple:

Kingdom: Plantae (unranked): Angiosperms (unranked): Eudicots (unranked): Rosids Order: Rosales Family: Rosaceae Subfamily: Maloideae or Spiraeoideae[1] Tribe: Maleae Genus: Malus Species: M. domestica

By kingdom they are the same. By species they are different. So what's your point?

We draw the line at species to draw the conclusion they are different. The references are proper and defined. Even down to the same species, researchers in their respective fields still manage to find differences as they need to identify individual animals for their research.

"Same" and "different" with apples and oranges have _relevance_ because there are clear references.

The same cannot be said for hifi.

It was meant to be flippant rather than heated.

And that's how things can eventually get heated.

Once you have a reference, then you can compare for same, and work out the different (or vice versa).

And only then, we can look for cause and effect....

The internet is full of folks who argue for the scientific method, but the very folks don't even know the difference between a scientist and an engineer....

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This thread is gonna need more Panandol.

And we haven't started on (Double) Blind Testing yet! :lol:

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And we haven't started on (Double) Blind Testing yet! :lol:

I think I kind of tried to but without using the actual term ;)

Doesn't anyone else wonder why companies that make massive promises about performance (and ask massive prices in return) make no attempt to back this up with some kind of solid testing? How hard could it be?

Edited by ajm

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This thread is gonna need more Panandol.

some might prefer to slip in this form :lol:

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[quote name=:)' timestamp='1352090186' post='1843304]

some might prefer to slip in this form :lol:

Oh dear! :no::yes:

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No offence Pete but waste of time even considering anything resembling a common sense discussion on the subject matter, ends up another trollfest and already proven by one attendee already..............

Sorry but I was just trying my best ;)

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[quote name=:)' timestamp='1352090186' post='1843304]

some might prefer to slip in this form :lol:

Post of the year! :rofl:

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