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Alcheringa

Anamorphic Lens Seminar

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The ony distraction I find in my HT is after I've forgotten I'd fed the dog BBQ Chicken for his evening meal...

It's at that point I'm not sure what's blurring my vision. The Wine, The Submersives shaking my spleen or Canine induced Chemical Warfare :wacko:

Blade

My only distraction is while sitting watching Apocalypse Now attack scene again the other day at Reference Levels, Huey's flying all around the room, Flight of the Valkyries blasting from the speakers, explosions rumbling through the seats, and then the door opens a crack and a little voice says "Daddy just wondering what you are doing, can you come and play now?" - My 4 year old son. :)

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The only distraction I find in my HT is after I've forgotten I'd fed the dog BBQ Chicken for his evening meal...

A valid, but much under-discussed anamorphic issue. Not quite what I meant by a "richer viewing environment".

Edited by Alcheringa

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Interesting. Haven't you always been a vocal advocate of the "extra" height (i.e. immersiveness) an untrammelled 16:9 screen/image lends the viewer? First time I think I've seen you suggest using a Scope screen masked in conjunction with Zooming.

Who said anything about a 16:9 screen?...I think you have on the odd occassion

So which is Owen? - 16:9 Screen masked for scope and retain the native 16:9 AR where relevant OR is it a Scope Screen masked and Zoomed and lose all that native 16:9 goodness you hold so dear?

For my own use I dont want CIH and dont want a scope screen as I have made clear in the past. I was simply pointing out that people who do want CIH and or a scope screen have options other than an “A” lens that can perform just as well if not better.

I dont see how pushing a button on a remote to zoom the image to fit the screen height is much different to sliding in an “A” lens and using the projector remote to put it in anamorphic mode.

Not sure what you mean in regards "true CIH" either. Everything I project is CIH.

Since video comes in a variety of aspect ratios content that is taller than scope and shorter than 16:9 will either have the top and bottom of the picture cut off with the “A” lens in place or not fill the screen height with it removed. So, if you want “true” CIH you have to zoom for some content, so why not do so for all?

I'm all for a brighter image. I must have missed your link. What is "DNP" as I want to do some research?

http://www.dnp-screens.com/DNP08/Products/...projection.aspx

­Distributed in Oz by Screen Technics

Edited by Owen

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My only distraction is while sitting watching Apocalypse Now attack scene again the other day at Reference Levels, Huey's flying all around the room, Flight of the Valkyries blasting from the speakers, explosions rumbling through the seats, and then the door opens a crack and a little voice says "Daddy just wondering what you are doing, can you come and play now?" - My 4 year old son. :)

"Can't you see I'm in the middle of a covert CIA Black Op to turn back the Communist Heathen here Son!?"

"btw - I'm almost outta Ammo, make yourself useful"

:lol:

Blade

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After so long, I decided to revive this thread as one of the tasks I had promised myself, I have now done.

About a year ago I posted this:

The last movie I went to was the new Predator thing (can't remember it's name). Had a couple of (male) muppets with me who wanted to see an action movie. We sat front third. Curved screen, large, but too high above the eyeline. Everything was warped from bottle distortion and the film was flat and grainy. Even the muppets said they'd like to see it again, but at home next time.

Last night we watched Predators at home in a cinemascope presentation.

My off-the-cuff observations were:

1. Clearer

2. Sharper

3. MUCH better contrast

4. Better sound

5. Better color

6. Almost no grain or other visual aretfacts.

What had been an "OK" movie to me at the cinema became quite an enjoyable one, so different from the original one to qualify as a "new" experience.

I've seen one other film at the cinema since, and then at home: The Descendants.

Observations 1-5 above apply to this too. The difference between Home Cinema and commercial cinema is so stark to me that I doubt whether I'll ever go to a commercial cinema again.

In the same time I've had another 38 of my lenses purchased (mostly by installers and HC dealer networks) here and in the US. Which leads me to wonder whether and when I should set out on a new production run.

So, my question is: what does the Forum think of the "future" of A-lenses?

How much has the current self-inflicted economic whingeing about how poorly we're doing economically (even though Australia is objectively just about the world's best economy) affected the Home Cinema market? And especially the market for discretionary add-on purchases like A-lenses?

I've seen some of my customers' Home Cinema rooms. Two of them are past "House Of The Year" award winners. The rest have been completely impressive to me as well. Without exception, all of them have been gob-smackingly ornate, expensive-looking and incredibly lavish.

Is the market only for high-end users to whom money is no object?

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G'day Alcheringa

I enjoy your contributions

I don't know if I'm a typical home cinema, who is?

My situation...

My presumption is I spend less than the typical Home Cinema enthusiast.

I also presume that people who buy A-lenses either have a schit load of money or are enthusiasts.

Although I am in the long-winded process of building a home-cinema, I don't have a schit load of money and I am researching and doing some of it DiY

I already have:

AVR, HD-DVD, Blu-ray, STB etc

4 year old BenQW5000 which I am not looking to replace

130" fixed OzTS screen

A Mark T Mk-II A-lens which I have never used due to its size. I am now looking to use it or a Mk-III in the current Home Cinema build

I have purchased & instaaled the doors

I have purchased the seats

I will build the riser

I will build the front speakers

I will build the bass bins, I have purchase the pro amps, & I am yet to purchase the digital cross over

I will do the 12V lighting

I will do the painting

I will pay a plasterer

I will pay an electrician

So, even though I will/am do/doing quite a bit of work, it will still cost me some amount of $$$

That said, I would look to replace my projector before buying a SoTA A-lens. Not that I don't want one! :)

I presume it would be easier to convince someone with more cash and less knowledge to buy a SoTA A-lens; than an enthusiast with less cash & more knoweldge/desire.

Kitchens & bathrooms are supposed to be the most expensive rooms in the house. Not any more me thinks.

Dunno if this answers your question

Hopefully others will also contribute.

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An A-lens has always been a big purchase and I suspect price has limited the market to enthusiasts and/or those building a showpiece.

On the plus side, affordable HD projectors have seen home theatre move from the hard core enthusiast to a much broader uptake and it looks like this segment will continue to grow. Commercial cinemas are in a death spiral - the combination of pathetic picture (dirty lenses, dirty screens, out of focus), poor sound (too loud, too quiet, uneven frequency response) and too many unwashed, rude, thuggish clients has eroded the sense of a day/night out.

The emergence of powered lens memory on projectors has provided a low cost alternatives to an A-lens, even if it doesn't deliver the same brightness on a scope screen of a given size. I suspect the price/performance available from powered lens memory projectors is going to limit uptake of A-lenses unless there's a cost breakthrough on the latter.

The emergence of a handful of native 'scope projectors (currently all high end) also suggests that if these become affordably priced then A-lenses will not have a high volume future.

FYI, I own an A-lens and am very pleased with it.

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Good to see you still around Tony and I hope you're well.

From my perspective and experience any hobby you choose can be expensive. HT is no exception and can be very costly. It comes down to what you deem important and what you want from your HT (And how much work you do yourself). Do you want to replicate Mann's Chinese Theatre or simply have a basic dedicated room you can relax in without bothering others in the house? It's entirely up to the individual and so is outlaying a large sum of money for an A-Lens.

A dedicated A-lens User recently posted his desire to use a large 16:9 screen and mask down for 2:35.1 (Top and Bottom). With this method he won't restrict the size of a native 16:9 picture (i.e - It's not CIH) and he won't need a Lens. I think it was calculated that a 138" 16:9 screen would give him the same sized 130" 2:35.1 he now enjoys. It's an interesting approach and one I cannot ignore. Suffice it to say, it's given me something to think about - use a large 16:9 screen that will give me the same size Scope image I enjoy now, without a Lens and with lateral (Top/Bottom) masking. I don't compromise the native 16:9 image either (i.e I get that "extra" height missing from a CIH solution).

In my dedicated room I'll be spending much larger sums of money on the physical structure/acoustics and EQ than I will on the Projector/Lens solution as I place a higher importance on SQ. Having said that I've booked in to see the Sony VPL-VW1000 4K Projector @ Audio Trends so that might change ;)

Blade

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After so long, I decided to revive this thread as one of the tasks I had promised myself, I have now done.

About a year ago I posted this:

Last night we watched Predators at home in a cinemascope presentation.

My off-the-cuff observations were:

1. Clearer

2. Sharper

3. MUCH better contrast

4. Better sound

5. Better color

6. Almost no grain or other visual aretfacts.

What had been an "OK" movie to me at the cinema became quite an enjoyable one, so different from the original one to qualify as a "new" experience.

I've seen one other film at the cinema since, and then at home: The Descendants.

Observations 1-5 above apply to this too. The difference between Home Cinema and commercial cinema is so stark to me that I doubt whether I'll ever go to a commercial cinema again.

In the same time I've had another 38 of my lenses purchased (mostly by installers and HC dealer networks) here and in the US. Which leads me to wonder whether and when I should set out on a new production run.

So, my question is: what does the Forum think of the "future" of A-lenses?

How much has the current self-inflicted economic whingeing about how poorly we're doing economically (even though Australia is objectively just about the world's best economy) affected the Home Cinema market? And especially the market for discretionary add-on purchases like A-lenses?

I've seen some of my customers' Home Cinema rooms. Two of them are past "House Of The Year" award winners. The rest have been completely impressive to me as well. Without exception, all of them have been gob-smackingly ornate, expensive-looking and incredibly lavish.

Is the market only for high-end users to whom money is no object?

After so long, I decided to revive this thread as one of the tasks I had promised myself, I have now done.

About a year ago I posted this:

Last night we watched Predators at home in a cinemascope presentation.

My off-the-cuff observations were:

1. Clearer

2. Sharper

3. MUCH better contrast

4. Better sound

5. Better color

6. Almost no grain or other visual aretfacts.

What had been an "OK" movie to me at the cinema became quite an enjoyable one, so different from the original one to qualify as a "new" experience.

I've seen one other film at the cinema since, and then at home: The Descendants.

Observations 1-5 above apply to this too. The difference between Home Cinema and commercial cinema is so stark to me that I doubt whether I'll ever go to a commercial cinema again.

In the same time I've had another 38 of my lenses purchased (mostly by installers and HC dealer networks) here and in the US. Which leads me to wonder whether and when I should set out on a new production run.

So, my question is: what does the Forum think of the "future" of A-lenses?

How much has the current self-inflicted economic whingeing about how poorly we're doing economically (even though Australia is objectively just about the world's best economy) affected the Home Cinema market? And especially the market for discretionary add-on purchases like A-lenses?

I've seen some of my customers' Home Cinema rooms. Two of them are past "House Of The Year" award winners. The rest have been completely impressive to me as well. Without exception, all of them have been gob-smackingly ornate, expensive-looking and incredibly lavish.

Is the market only for high-end users to whom money is no object?

Hi Tony,

I agree with most of your comments above with the only real deterrant for lenses now being the 4K e-shift machines offered by JVC and the new Sony 4K machine.

Having said that however, my last customer who purchased your lens needed it for brightness as he was going 160 inch scope. There is still a market for lenses and as others have noted - projectors are priced agressively today which means more folks can and will buy them.

I put your lens in front of the JVC X70 a few weeks back and compared brightness, there is a gain there for sure. Resolution, I couldn't see any difference as I had the e shift feature on (can't even see pixels at 1 metres). With a normal 1080P panel it's more noticeable.

The only thing I'd be keeping an eye on is the 4K resolution projectors and their apparent brightness or lack of. That and like Quark stated, native scope projectors might put a dent in lens sales around the world. But since the world is run on greed, these machines will stay at the top end where money doesn't matter, for now anyway.

38 lenses! wow that's impressive mate. Given that isco could only manage 60 in the UK in 2008 when the market was much healthier!

I'd keep going with them tbh. There is still a market.. as soon as we all get over the carbon tax and associated doom and gloom, things will pickup again... oh but then the world's going to end.. damn I forgot about that.. holiday perhaps? :hyper:

Went to the cinemas the other day. Really noticed a large hot spot in the centre of the screen, brightness dimished going from the centre to all 4 corners and sides. Even my wife noticed it and she couldn't care less about it.

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FYI. After speaking with Prior (Chris) today. I've decided to go with a much larger demo room, around 9-10 metres long. This will handle the krix theatrix speakers - the scope screen will be around the 175-180 inch mark and the CM5E will going in too! Should be a corker of a room. Big thanks to Chris for helping me spend even more money haha.

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38 lenses! wow that's impressive mate. Given that isco could only manage 60 in the UK in 2008 when the market was much healthier!

That's in addition to what had been sold before. So I guess it's working out to be a good experiment.

Went to the cinemas the other day. Really noticed a large hot spot in the centre of the screen, brightness dimished going from the centre to all 4 corners and sides. Even my wife noticed it and she couldn't care less about it.

I've noticed this too. Someone said it might be that they all have higher-reflective screens for 3D, hence the hot spots. Most annoying... compared to a beautiful, even illumination at home. Quite garish colors too.

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I have tested the JVC X70 zoomed to fill a 140" scope screen with 4k wobbulation switched on and I preferred the native PQ thrown by the projector compared to an A lens. No pin cushioning or screen door effect for that matter. best of all a new X70 can be had for about 6-7k. Guess technology has finally caught up...

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I can't find a way to edit the original post, so for the moment I thought I'd put in a rough index of topics covered here for the moment:

Some topics, like Lens v. Zoom and Owen v. The Rest :queen: permeate throughout this seminar.

Owen's contributions have been superb. While you might not agree with all his conclusions (or perhaps, assumptions) he certainly brings a depth of knowledge and clarity of reasoning to this thread. I'd like to personally thank "The Big O" for his erudite contributions and the links he has supplied to back up his thinking. I learned a lot from them, and continue to do so.

Other contributors - Blade and Hi-Jinx come especially to mind - have given us the benefit of their experience and thinking on the subject. But there are many others who have taken the time to pen thoughtful mini-essays and commentary. To all of you I extend my sincere thanks and appreciation. You've all helped make this thread well-behaved, on-topic and informative.

The Index (topic followed by page):

Throw Ratio 1

Pincushion 1

Prism v. Cylindrical Lenses 1

Vignetting 1

Quality Loss through Anamorphic Lenses 1

Owen on the importance of MTF 2

Human Angular Resolution Discussion (HAR) 2

Grid Distortion and what can be done about it 5

ANSI Contrast considerations 5

Curved Screens: not always a panacaea 5

Bottle Distortion 5

THX Specifications and whether we need them 6

Advantages of anamorphic lenses 7

Focus and Astigmatism Issues 7

More MTF Links (Owen) 7

"What the director intended" 8

The lens design rocess 10

Virtues of the Scope format 10

Early Scope 12

Matching Camera and Projection viewing angles 14

Lens stand and mounts - fixed and motorized 17

Differential distortion across the screen 19

Scope Aspect Ratios 20

HTPCs (Owen) 21

Media Players 22

Special Screens 28

The Future of Anamorphic 29

Not an exhaustive index, nor 100% accurate, in that some topics pop up at all kinds of times as late posters wade into the debate.

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Thanks for the list Alcheringa it now makes it alot easier to find the info I need ... :phone:

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Black Diamond Screens

About a year ago I posted this:

FYI: The Australian distributor for the Black Diamond screen is Network Audio Visual in Manly (or Mona) Vale (not sure which). Just spoke to them on the phone. They have a demo room. And they do 2.40:1 Black Diamond screens (pricey, upwards of $6k). Then again, compared to others of the imported variety, competitive. I'm trying to organize a look-see when the Sales Director comes back from o/s in a couple of weeks. This would be the 1.5 gain version.

There had been some discussion about these screens.

Well, I finally went and had a good look at the Black Diamond screen (1.4x gain) at Network Audio Visual in Manly Vale (Sydney) and came away very impressed after an hour's intensive examination in a one-on-one scenario (no vulgar crowds!)

Network Audio Visual demo'd the Black Diamond using a very impressive calibrated Runco LS-1 (Network are Runco importers).

This screen does everything its publicity claims. The difference between "House lights ON" and "House lights OFF" is very little. With lights "ON" contrast is still excellent. Viewing angle is very good. You can stand well to the side of the screen and observe very little hot-spotting or (conversely) dimming.

"Speckling" - color flecks when your viewing angle is incident to the projection angle - is very low, about what you'd expect with a greater than unity gain plain white screen. I would assume that the 0.8x gain model of this screen would be even better (although one was not available for demo yesterday).

With no light projected onto it the screen looks approximately like an LCD flat panel monitor turned off: a dark, warm grey look that suits a room more than a bare white screen. Quite sexy, actually.

With an image on it the contrast jumps out at you. Perhaps a better word than "contrast" would be "richness". The image is seriously enhanced by the screen multiple layers of reflective material without affecting either shadow or highlight detail adversely.

I can see a screen like this being ultra useful in a mixed viewing environment, perhaps one where the Home Cinema has stray light from, say, a bar (we all have built-in bars don't we?) or in a family room (i.e. where you don't have either the opportunity or the inclination to build a bat cave).

That is not to say that it wouldn't look completely in place in a formal, dedicated cinema. In fact I think it would look pretty sensational.

What should also be remembered is that the screen not only rejects much of the ambient light in the room, but it also does not spill light from the screen out to the room. That is, it works in reverse as well. This is a great feature where you don't want to paint your Home Cinema black or in dark tones. It gives you a much wider gamut of choices in room decoration without the downside of having to account for reduction of contrast due to light spillage.

These are not inexpensive screens, but neither are they all that expensive either. Won't get into price talk here, but it does seem that inflation has not affected last year's indicated price, and (for once) the high dollar has helped.

Scope screen come in sizes up to 140", and there are curved models available.

I was very impressed indeed. It would make any light loss from the 1.33x expansion of the anamorphic image quite negligible. You wouldn't need a light cannon to light this screen up to the point where you almost need sunglasses (useful for 3D active too).

You really have to see this screen in action to believe it. VERY well worth a look.

Edited by Alcheringa

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