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Smacca

Digital Rollout: Bunbury & Kalgoorlie Next To Launch!

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Go for moe,

What date did I say that, because I would never have said that.

Alanh

You've suggested it multiple times.

http://www.dtvforum.info/index.php?showtop...t&p=1654356

"The DBCDE could save a lot of money by replacing the satellite receivers at some regional ABC/SBS transmitter sites with a pair of VAST receivers. Then less D1 transponders would be required. They are not doing this at the moment."

http://www.dtvforum.info/index.php?showtop...t&p=1545729

"The VAST specification includes MPEG-4 which is likely to be retransmitted in that form saving conversion to MPEG-2 at each transmitter site."

And I'm sure that DrP could find the specific post talking about Regional WA, but you've readily suggested retransmission of VAST at the transmitter site - as such I find it odd that now you are staunchly saying it is not for transmitters. Which is it?

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Out of interest, one of the facts of AlanH is 'New terrestrial digital services in regional WA will be based upon the new DTH satelite service', so does that mean Alan is now making the opposite argument he used to make? Or was right and now aims to change that to start misleading.

It means alanh is up to his usual flim flamming. Amusingly not too long after he made that claim (and also the claim that all new terrestrial services in regional / remote WA would be MPEG-4) several terrestrial sites came up using the D1 feeds and in MPEG-2 proving that 'all new services in' were in fact not based upon the new (and at that time not even transmitting) DTH service. For those in the know, this was not at all surprising as the networks had intended to do this for some time to appease the Federal government.

As pointed out in 'The Facts' the contradictory to reality posts were accurate (or perhaps that should be inaccurate!) at the time and things will no doubt change in time.

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Go for moe,

What date did I say that, because I would never have said that.

Alanh

Attempting to re-write history is another alanh specialty.

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Lets make a deal. If by the end of July you are proven wrong again you agree to stop posting these misleadng posts you seem so good at and post in areas you know, (Television in the 80s and 90s)

A very similar deal was put to alanh previously regarding VAST etc, and then the WA terrestrial sites using the D1 feeds came up. Not at all surprisingly, alanh continued to plough on as if nothing had happened.

Another similar deal was put to alanh regarding general terrestrial transmission of MPEG-4 AVC. Naturally it had no effect and alanh continued to plough along there too.

Edited by DrP

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Go For Moe,

So you did not find the quote you claim

All,

The history of WA satellite transmissions

HACBSS BMAC was an analog FM transmission systme which used Multiplexed Analog Component signals not PAL

Aurora is DVB-S and MPEG-2 compression for 4 TV programs

VAST DVB-S2 with MPEG-4 HD and MPEG-2 SD currently

lingesat VAST satellite listing as against the general list

With The ABC and SBS being part of VAST, see the link above, there will be on observable change to the viewers if the ABC & SBS's transmitter change over to VAST as a signal source with the exception of ABC 24 and SBS HD.

Both AS 4933.1-2010 Digital television - Requirements for receivers - VHF/UHF DVB-T television broadcasts requires MPEG-4 reception and AS 4599.1-2007

Digital television - Terrestrial broadcasting - Characteristics of digital terrestrial television transmissions allows the transmission of MPEG-4.

All PVRs on the market and most TVs (all?) state that they will decompress MPEG-4. STB manufacturers don't generally give this level of detail. All 3-D TVs can decompress MPEG-4.

By far the cheapest option for the ABC and SBS is to use VAST for distribution to digital transmitters, all that is required is a pair VAST receivers at each transmitter site and the decision to transmit HD channels using MPEG-4 directly. After doing this 6 transponders will not have to be paid for. This is many millions of dollars. It's the DBCDE's decision as to when to start saving money. The Victorian, and Tasmanian transmitters could easily be fed using the NBN when it rolls out saving another 4 transponders...

I predicted the use of DVB-S2 which was denied, however all VAST is DVB-S2 for SD and HD, where I was told by posters here than neither would be used and then only it be used only be used for HD.

MPEG-4 is being used for all VAST HD transmission

In WA there are currently no community retransmission of VAST signals so we will have to wait and see what compression standard will be used for HD programs.

Nationally Aurora reception was always only been restricted to remote area reception and areas where terrestrial reception in regional and metro areas is not possible. VAST is following the exactly the same licencing policy. The only difference is that if a community organisation does not wish to pay to replace their 4 analog transmitters with 5 digital transmitters, the DBCDE will subsidise the purchase of satellite receivers to use VAST instead.

Lastly remember that regional WA does not have to be ready for DTV until the middle of 2013, with the analog switchoff at the end of 2013.

AlanH

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Thanks for the long-winded, unneccessary history lesson, Alan. But it still doesn't change the fact you're wrong about the DVN. :)

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You know, its quite hillarious to see alanh demanding other people produce links to posts where he allegedly (there's nothing alleged about it, its a fact he said it) said something but when it comes to him producing posts where he claims others have said something, its the silent treatment and off he slinks, because he can't produce the links since what he claims a person said that person never actually said.

Here's a few links to alanh's posts, relating to random subjects in "The Facts".

Foxtel transmits only MPEG-4 AVC

MPEG-4 AVC video is faked with icons and the audio is midi

Communities of 10,000 or less will not be connected to the NBN's fibre network

MPEG-2 I frames can be empty if there hasn't been any content change from the last P/B frame

Each item in "The Facts" can be linked back to one of alanh's posts. Each and every one. Am I going to bother? No. This random smattering of links should be sufficient to convince most forum members of "The Facts" accuracy.

Let's see if alanh can do the same.

I predicted the use of DVB-S2 which was denied, however all VAST is DVB-S2 for SD and HD, where I was told by posters here than neither would be used and then only it be used only be used for HD.

Links to posts where people told you that DVB-S2 would not be used please. Links to posts where people told you that MPEG-4 AVC would not be used please. ^_^

Edited by DrP

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Community retransmission sites from VAST

The cheapest option is to receive the demodulated but still compressed and muxed signals and feed this signal into a DVB-T transmitter. If this is done the HD channels of 7Mate, GEM, One, ABC24 and SBS HD will be received normally by most new receivers. For those who do not have MPEG-4 decode capability, they will get an error message just as what happened during the 3-D trials.

Since some of these sites have had no digital then a new receiver is likely and the viewer is none the wiser.

As for DVN, you can see that the only VAST commercial signals currently are GWN7, TEN Perth WIN and 7 MATE there is no evidence that the DVN is not going to be used as is is in all other states. The distance to far North Qld from Ingleburn is roughly equivalent to going to Bunbury and WIN is terrestrially fed.

The main thing that is forgotten is the price of labour for local insertion of advertising along with the price of the automation system (which have already been paid for in the east) to do the inserting a small amount of extra hard drive space and the hire of DVN is cheaper than satellite and labour. Since all the ABC, and all the commercials are being DVN fed in Perth, what makes Bunbury special?

AlanH

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Am I going to bother? No. This random smattering of links should be sufficient to convince most forum members of "The Facts" accuracy.

Exactly, don't bother. We all know Alan is full of poo. But like I always say, he's allowed to because he is the King of the Forums. Nothing gets past Alan without his consent, and nothing can ever be debated. Do you honestly see anyone else here starting their posts with "All,"? He is delusional. He thinks he runs the joint.

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Community retransmission sites from VAST

The cheapest option is to receive the demodulated but still compressed and muxed signals and feed this signal into a DVB-T transmitter. If this is done the HD channels of 7Mate, GEM, One, ABC24 and SBS HD will be received normally by most new receivers. For those who do not have MPEG-4 decode capability, they will get an error message just as what happened during the 3-D trials.

Since some of these sites have had no digital then a new receiver is likely and the viewer is none the wiser.

As for DVN, you can see that the only VAST commercial signals currently are GWN7, TEN Perth WIN and 7 MATE there is no evidence that the DVN is not going to be used as is is in all other states. The distance to far North Qld from Ingleburn is roughly equivalent to going to Bunbury and WIN is terrestrially fed.

The main thing that is forgotten is the price of labour for local insertion of advertising along with the price of the automation system (which have already been paid for in the east) to do the inserting a small amount of extra hard drive space and the hire of DVN is cheaper than satellite and labour. Since all the ABC, and all the commercials are being DVN fed in Perth, what makes Bunbury special?

AlanH

Spoken like a true idiot. That brick must have crushed some crucial parts of the old noggin there, Alan. :)

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Guest stump_1100
As for DVN, you can see that the only VAST commercial signals currently are GWN7, TEN Perth WIN and 7 MATE there is no evidence that the DVN is not going to be used as is is in all other states. The distance to far North Qld from Ingleburn is roughly equivalent to going to Bunbury and WIN is terrestrially fed.

AlanH

That comparison is a bit pointless because of the microwave link infrastructure on the East Coast, that option doesn't exist going West so we use a different method to transport the data.

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Wow - just sifting through all the personal attacks trying to find anything relating to the topic.

I can now see why people don't bother comming here anymore, too much crossfire, surely there's another website all the personal he said/she said school yard tactics can be aired and just keep this thread on the subject.

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Wow - just sifting through all the personal attacks trying to find anything relating to the topic.

I can now see why people don't bother comming here anymore, too much crossfire, surely there's another website all the personal he said/she said school yard tactics can be aired and just keep this thread on the subject.

Well, this is what you get when there is absolutely no moderation of the forum. It shouldn't be up to us to fight off this nonsense, it should all rest on the moderators.

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Wow - just sifting through all the personal attacks trying to find anything relating to the topic.

I can now see why people don't bother comming here anymore, too much crossfire, surely there's another website all the personal he said/she said school yard tactics can be aired and just keep this thread on the subject.

I was going to say the same thing...But in a slightly less diplomatic fashion :)

So, any news yet as two how the installation of the new transmission equipment is going and when we might see the new stations broadcasting?

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So, any news yet as two how the installation of the new transmission equipment is going and when we might see the new stations broadcasting?

Going very well. Still a couple more weeks for satellite feeds to be sorted, but still July 30 deadline.

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Phew , finally back on topic... I rushed home from work & rescanned digital .. sighh, then come on here , new info which is great!

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The Kalgoorlie allocations that Baja quotes have been in the Get the best reception WA transmitter list for a few years. They have been left unchanged because they fit the digital dividend channel groupings.

Any new antenna installations can now be Band 3 Yagi-Uda only as UHF is only used for analog.

In this case the usual channels 9 and 9A are usually reserved for DAB+ digital radio have been used for DTV. This leaves channels 6, 8 and 11. One is reserved for future use.

The Mt Lennard allocations have been changed by the ACMA to match the second group of UHF channels 34 - 39. Channel 38 is reserved for future use possibly community TV.

A band 4+ Yagi-Uda is the best replacement for a band 2, 4+ antenna. Since there is high powered FM being picked up by the band 2 antennas it can cause excessive error rates due to interference. In these cases it's best to replace the antenna with a band 4+ antenna and use the old antenna for FM reception.

AlanH

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In this case the usual channels 9 and 9A are usually reserved for DAB+ digital radio have been used for DTV. This leaves channels 6, 8 and 11. One is reserved for future use.

ACMA have stated that the 9/9A channels can be allocated for digital television in remote areas, as it is unlikely that interference will occur over the long distances between actual DAB deployments - so I wouldn't expect these to be altered after analogue switchoff, not that it really matters antenna wise.

Otherwise, good to see that the block planning is already taking effect with these new digital deployments, it will ease the pain later on.

Hopefully we'll have those switched on next week. Are the WA VAST versions of Mate, Go, Eleven, etc. on the sat yet? Or is there still a chance the testing could begin with the D1 channels?

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Baja,

These channels will have to be installed as part of providing the additional programs above just a single SD program from each commercial network.

As for DAB+ it is not suitable for remote areas except for the Kalgoorlie/Boulder only. A much more approprate digital radio technology is to use DRM30 which will have a range of AM and more. This will be a great sound improvement on AM.

AlanH

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Thankyou Smacca. I have long suspected that alanh had been granted rights to change his posts without the 'edited' tag line appearing and you have just confirmed it.

Yes on a few occasions I've found a post of alanh's growing longer from when I start a reply to it to when I complete and post my reply, but without alanh's amended post then bearing any edited tag. Some of his posts this year do bear the tag, as can be readily discovered on Google using the search string: "has been edited by alanh" site:www.dtvforum.info

I recall that another person whose posts would sometimes change without the edited tag appearing was momaw. He had special access which he used to update a pinned thread.

And I recall that for a short period, perhaps for a week, I think this was about 3 or 4 years ago, the forum gave me an optional "edited by" box to tick when editing. I suspect this was a forum experiment. I presume alanh has such an optional "edited by" box available to him all the time, and his practice is not to tick it when making edits a short time after making a post. [Or it may be the opposite; i.e. that you have to tick to suppress.]

Whilst on the subject of edit privileges, for many years I had the ability to edit my posts only within 24 hours of creation. I think that is the norm for most forum members. However for some months now I've found I've been able to edit any of my posts regardless of their age. But if I do so I have no option available to me of suppressing the automatic generation of an edited tag. I have assumed that the 24 hour restriction has ceased to apply because of my high total post count and resulting "senior member" status.

This will be a great sound improvement on AM.

I think alanh is suggesting that DRM30 if adopted could provide a more satisfying sound than medium wave broadcast band AM at medium to long distances under conditions where noise and interference disturb the AM transmission.

It would be dangerous to assume that DRM30 would give "a great improvement on AM" close to the transmitter, given that DRM30 encoding parameters may be set to maximise reliability of reception at long distances, rather than to give a high quality audio bitrate for local reception.

Edited by MLXXX

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OK it's the "Next Month" in Bunbury...... WHERE are the new DTV channels???? Come on TV Station.... enough waiting....

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OK it's the "Next Month" in Bunbury...... WHERE are the new DTV channels???? Come on TV Station.... enough waiting....

July 30 is still a month away.

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MLXXX,

It's horses for courses.

DAB+ only has to cover a small area with 50 kWerp Brisbane DAB+ coverage

Compare this to ABC FM 6kW erp

Even more so compare it to 6GF ABC Goldfields 2kW AM. 6KG Radio West has the same transmission power.

As you can see the coverage area from band 3 DAB+ is totally insufficient in remote areas.

The DBCDE is yet to release its decision into what form of digital radio is to be used. The only choice is to stick with AM or use DRM30 so that the hundreds of km² to be covered.

You also forget that higher bit rates can be used if the power remains the same rather than reducing it by a quarter for an equivalent coverage to AM. Interference is not much of a problem in this area.

AlanH

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You also forget that higher bit rates can be used if the power remains the same rather than reducing it by a quarter for an equivalent coverage to AM.

"Also forget"? Your attempt at transcontinental mind reading, alanh, is remarkable for its ambitiousness.

I'd reiterate my original point: the local reception audio quality of DRM30 would depend very much on the encoding parameters adopted; and more specifically whether the parameters favoured long distance reception reliability at the expense of audio bitrate. As you have pointed out, a relevant factor would be the chosen Effective Radiated Power.

Anyway I believe this thread is titled: Digital Rollout: Bunbury & Kalgoorlie Next To Launch!

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July 30 is still a month away.

OH! then the B Mail should have said the week before last ... Bunbury to get DTV by the END of July and not Bunbury will get DTV next month which implies 1st July. I know it is just a word game but misleading for anyone who has been told time and time again ... soon, soon, soon, by December but never what year...:)

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