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JSmith

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That panel has a long life ahead :) 40,000-60,000 hrs at least

Or it could be classified as superseded technology and put out to pasture! It's only a 50" panel, small by today's standards.

And without wishing to add fuel to the still raging plasma vs lcd war, I personally never found the picture quality satisfying. Its gamma characteristic was such that it was a battle to get the set to display near blacks clearly. It wanted to pull near blacks down towards black. Also, for my eyes, flicker was in evidence, a great deal of the time, not as bad as 100Hz CRT flicker, but annoying all the same. At the time of purchase it did 3D well, with perhaps the lowest ghosting of all sets on the market at the time. So it was satisfying in that respect.

I'll keep it as an extra TV, for guests. Cheers.

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Seems you'd already answered that one yourself...

So OK in a room with the lights on is now "excellent" performance is it? Who would have guessed. :logik:

I dont consider top line Plasma blacks anywhere near "excellent" even though they are vastly better than LCD. The ONLY flat panel TV with "excellent" black is OLED.

It can be calibrated to correct standards.

If that where true there should be zero colour errors after calibration, and thats obviously not the case. No display can achieve that, but the VT60 and G9 Kuro are bloody close, not so the Sammy LCD.

That's edgelit for you...

Its not that simple. LCD panels dont transmit light evenly over their entire surface area so no matter how perfect the lighting system uniformity is never perfect due to the LCD panel its self.

There is also significant variation between panels, some are good and others can be dreadful, even with the same model and size of TV. Many people have received dud panels and had to return them in the hope of getting a better one with less clouding. Its a lucky dip and the lighting system is secondary.

My 2013 LCD is edge lit and its a lot more uniform then my older back lite LCD.

Local dimming introduces a separate set of problems and is not a cure for LCD uniformity and contrast limitations, its a patch up.

... not many people watch TV from the side Owen. We also have swivel stands and wall mounts with swing arms...

So the many people who complain about LCD off axis performance are wingers, they should sit dead center of get a swivel stand? How dare they want the sort of performance they where used to on an old CRT TV.

I sit 3m from my main TV and at that distance the person siting either side of the center seat is about 30 degrees off axis, that's enough to cause visible problems.

No one said you're alone Owen. But the simple fact is most consumers DGAFF... hence why manufacturers cash in on this apathy.

I couldn't care less what the average consumer cares about and I doubt most readers of this forum would either.

If a product is described as "excellent" it had better live up to it, no excuses.

No, just the pick of what is currently available. ;)

So a person reads a review of a current model TV and based on the "excellent" review goes out and spends $9k of their hard earned on the TV only to get it home and find out its not up to the standard of the TV they have been using for years that cost less than half as much. That will go down REAL well, the poor bugger would rightfully feel misled, and they would have been. NOT good enough. :no:

Edited by Owen

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NOT good enough. :no:

I don't necessarily disagree... however all people can do (including reviewers) is to compare what is currently available. There's not much point comparing to panel types that aren't available anymore apart from a feeling of nostalgia.

The ONLY flat panel TV with "excellent" black is OLED.

Exactly. :)

JSmith :ninja:

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I don't necessarily disagree... however all people can do (including reviewers) is to compare what is currently available. There's not much point comparing to panel types that aren't available anymore apart from a feeling of nostalgia.

Visual comparisons with older models are obviously impractical, BUT the test measurements from the older models are there for all to see. Proclaiming an aspect of performance "excellent" when the test numbers clearly dont support that description is unprofessional and downright misleading.

When reading reviews it pays to be very skeptical of any reviewers opinion or comments when its not backed up by proper measurement results.

Exactly. :)

JSmith :ninja:

So where are all those LCD TV's that deserve an excellent rating???? :blink:;)

Edited by Owen

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I personally never found the picture quality satisfying. Its gamma characteristic was such that it was a battle to get the set to display near blacks clearly. It wanted to pull near blacks down towards black.

That's why its so important to have 10 point fully adjustable gamma, without it you are stuck with the presets provided my the manufacturer.

Panasonic liked to push up the shadows, unlike Samsung which typically erred the other way. That was appropriate for brighter environments but not for a dimmer room.

With the VT60 it only takes a few clicks of the remote to fix the low end gamma and get whatever "look" you want.

Edited by Owen

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Also, for my eyes, flicker was in evidence, a great deal of the time, not as bad as 100Hz CRT flicker, but annoying all the same. At the time of purchase it did 3D well, with perhaps the lowest ghosting of all sets on the market at the time. So it was satisfying in that respect.

While I'm not as flicker sensitive as you, I found the move to fast phosphors in 3D capable Plasma TV's a significant retrograde step.

The first time I saw a 3D Panasonic it was a brand new set with very few hours and running in dynamic mode (flat out) the flicker was dreadful and made an old 50Hz Plasma look good.

In my days in the computer game when CRT monitors where the norm. The 60Hz used by most PC monitors drove me nuts but I was shocked at how few people could see flicker even when it was pointed out to them. I always cranked up the refresh to 75Hz or more on every machine I worked on but I dont remember anyone noticing the difference. :logik:

I was therefore concerned about flicker when purchasing the VT60, but it turned out that at the low output levels I run its not a problem and has improved as more hours are accumulated to the point I dont notice it at all. If I cranked up the contrast to levels I wouldn't use I have no doubt flicker would be intrusive on some scenes, yet on older non 3G Plasma TV's that I still get to see flicker is a non issue. Bloody 3D, its a curse. :winky:

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Was in JB Hifi over the weekend. Wanted to have a look at the OLED's. Only had the 55EC930T on display playing what looked like a looped section of a movie (it ran for about 20 minutes before starting off again).Unfortunately I straight away picked up some very nasty image retention in the bottom right hand corner. Looked to be a bluray menu or similar. This image retention was very noticeable on light backgrounds.

Bugger was hoping image retention would be a thing of the past, but looks like it may still be an issue under certain conditions. Obviously JB would be running high brightness and not being careful with static images, settings etc, but still a worry!! I left before returning to the store a few hours later to check for any improvement,. Sadly ZERO improvement the image retention was just as noticeable.

Hmmmmm I cant help but think of what nasty Fox sports and Win logos may do. I guess we will have to wait until more people have them at home!!.

Tried to take some pics of it on my mobile, will upload this evening.

Edited by wilsact

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This image retention was very noticeable on light backgrounds.

It's just IR, that is temporary. They have inbuilt systems to prevent any permanency.

JSmith :ninja:

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In my days in the computer game when CRT monitors where the norm. The 60Hz used by most PC monitors drove me nuts but I was shocked at how few people could see flicker even when it was pointed out to them. I always cranked up the refresh to 75Hz or more on every machine I worked on but I dont remember anyone noticing the difference. :logik:

60Hz close up to a CRT monitor drove me crazy too. And 50Hz on a distant CRT TV was a bit of a trial.

I was therefore concerned about flicker when purchasing the VT60, but it turned out that at the low output levels I run its not a problem and has improved as more hours are accumulated to the point I dont notice it at all. If I cranked up the contrast to levels I wouldn't use I have no doubt flicker would be intrusive on some scenes, yet on older non 3G Plasma TV's that I still get to see flicker is a non issue.

The VT60 appears to strike a good balance then, regarding phosphor decay rate.

Bloody 3D, its a curse. :winky:

:winky:

Those pesky close-up stereo pictures of Pluto that will eventually be assembled by Nasa from data being sent back to Earth by the New Horizons space probe are... so unnecessary.

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It's just IR, that is temporary. They have inbuilt systems to prevent any permanency.

JSmith :ninja:

Nothing can prevent burn in on any display that can suffer it. If you age one part of the screen more than the rest it will always be dimmer.

With phosphor based displays the rate of decay slows the more hours are accrued so the less used parts of the screen tend to catch up with the more used parts over time but never completely. I dont know about the aging characteristics of OLED, I suspect it is more linear than phosphor so the rate of decay may be more constant.

Image retention on a Plasma is different to burn in, it seems to have nothing to do with phosphor aging and is likely related to the Plasma drive system that excites the phosphor pixels. If IR was due to phosphor aging it would take a VERY long time to fade as phosphor does not recover as fare as I am aware, it sure didn't with CRT. Once its burn its burnt for good.

Having said the above, LG's OLED doesn't seem to be terribly IR or burn in prone in normal use, although retailers are nervous about them and tend to keep them in screen saver mode.

Those nasty Foxtel sports channel logos will sure test OLED and time will tell how they stand up. It will be interesting to see how LG respond if there are problems.

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The VT60 appears to strike a good balance then, regarding phosphor decay rate.

The balance is still waited to 3D and means the VT60 is not at all suited to rooms where it needs to be driven hard. I recon Samsung struck a better compromise with the F8500, it can be driven much brighter for a given level of flicker making it a better all round TV for the masses. The VT60 was for enthusiasts with dim rooms who wanted the best blacks and colour accuracy available, Panasonic's version of the Kuro.

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I don't know about the aging characteristics of OLED...

Well that's helpful... :blink:;)

JSmith :ninja:

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Samsung yesterday introduced two new eye popping 55-inch OLED displays, one being a mirror and the other a transparent display (seen above).
Seemingly straight out of the future, the displays will initially be positioned for retail use, with Samsung boasting that the displays will help transform personalized shopping with a more visually engaging experience.

"Together with jewelry company Chow Sang Sang Samsung exhibited the two display in an exhibit that shows the promise of such displays in the commercial and retail markets."
Interesting...
JSmith :ninja:

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It's just IR, that is temporary. They have inbuilt systems to prevent any permanency.

JSmith :ninja:

Yes fair enough hopefully not permanent, but it is something that would probably detract from enjoyment of the tv, especially in this price range.

This wasn't image retention that disappears after a few minutes, it was still on the display many hours later without showing any improvement. Whether this is an issue in home use away from the shops torch mode settings remains to be seen. Hopefully it is like plasma, in that towards the end they were very hard to permanently burn an image in. Time will tell.

I have to go back to this store this weekend so will have another look and see if any improvement etc

Ummm can anyone please assist as to how do you add photos to a reply??? :hmm:

Edited by wilsact

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Ummm can anyone please assist as to how do you add photos to a reply??? :hmm:

Best to just upload then to a hosting site such as www.tinypic.com and drop the link straight into the post.

If it's a pic on a website just copy/paste it or open pic in new tab and copy/paste into the post reply.

I'd imagine the IR you saw was from torch mode instore... some interesting comments from owners here.

JSmith :ninja:

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10f0qom.jpgkexhjp.jpg141349z.jpg

Best to just upload then to a hosting site such as www.tinypic.com and drop the link straight into the post.

If it's a pic on a website just copy/paste it or open pic in new tab and copy/paste into the post reply.

I'd imagine the IR you saw was from torch mode instore... some interesting comments from owners here.

JSmith :ninja:

Thanks!!

Have to go to JB this weekend so will check out this same tv and see if it has improved at all. It also looks much worse in person unfortunately (will try and get better photos :D )

Edited by wilsact

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I predict that nothing will have changed in a week.

You are not the first to notice burn in on an OLED in a retailer, its not unusual. If driven hard with the wrong image they can be damaged.

What we dont know is if the newest models have improved in that regard, and if so by how much. Any increase is specified panel life would suggest an improvement.

There are two parts to LG's W-OLED life, the OLED's them selves, which are all white on the LG, and should decay at the same rate, and the colour filters that are used to get red, green and blue. The blue filter goes off the fastest.

If you never had burn in issues with a Plasma TV OLED should be fine if treated the same way.

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I predict that nothing will have changed in a week.

Did you read the link I posted from AVS with user reviews on IR?

The blue filter goes off the fastest.

Have you a link to verify this information? From what I recall the only issue with blue was with Samsung OLED panels and it was with a specific blue OLED. I believe it was doubled in size due to it's faster decay. Why would a filter decay?

JSmith :ninja:

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I never find LCD could produce realistic colour that a plasma can produce. My plasma is now about 5 years old now, But in that time frame I still have not seen a LCD TV that can produce the shadow detail and colour accuracy of a plasma. Plasma may have been a superseded technology but LCD is not the technology that produce display that surpassing the quality of plasma and the only advantage I see is it is cheaper to run.

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I never find LCD could produce realistic colour that a plasma can produce. My plasma is now about 5 years old now, But in that time frame I still have not seen a LCD TV that can produce the shadow detail and colour accuracy of a plasma. Plasma may have been a superseded technology but LCD is not the technology that produce display that surpassing the quality of plasma and the only advantage I see is it is cheaper to run.

... and what's your opinion of OLED jliang rather than LCD based panels?

JSmith :ninja:

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I never find LCD could produce realistic colour that a plasma can produce. My plasma is now about 5 years old now, But in that time frame I still have not seen a LCD TV that can produce the shadow detail and colour accuracy of a plasma.

I think it depends a great deal on the plasma panel involved. My 50" Panny 2010 year VT20 has very indistinct shadow detail. It always has had, from day one. My 65" Sony 2013 X9004A UHD LCD has far clearer shadow detail (and, as I've mentioned, much darker blacks).

Jliang, I have to take your reported perception of colour realism for your eyes of certain plasma displays vs certain LCD displays at face value. If that's what your eyes tell you, that's what they tell you!

However as I've mentioned before on this forum, I myself am quite conscious that there is no red on a plasma or LED display to match certain reds we see in everyday life. I find the topic of "realism" somewhat artificial in these circumstances. In a particular hypothetical case, it may be possible to calibrate display A to within 4% of Rec 709, and display B to within 2% of Rec 709, but if Rec 709 itself falls well short of accurately defining certain reds and greens, the colour will necessarily fall well short of realism for both display A and display B. (Here's a Wikipedia page that includes a Rec 709 diagram: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rec._709 ).

The most true to nature greens I can recall seeing on a display were on a Sony SXRD rear-pro (using the technology of an ultra high pressure lamp, with its broad spectrum output filtered down to ranges of Red Green and Blue wavelengths). I was stunned when I saw the greens. They reminded me of nature, rather than a mere electronic screen attempting to approximate nature.

[Edited:] I think most people would agree that there currently is little chance of mistaking a colourful scene displayed on a television screen for looking through an open window out onto reality. That degree of realism is something we may hopefully get to enjoy some time in the future.

Edited by MLXXX

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... and what's your opinion of OLED jliang rather than LCD based panels?

JSmith :ninja:

OLED is a superior technology to LCD base panel, I would not touch LCD as it just does not produce colour accurately enough for me. I will only buy a LCD when my current plasma dies and OLED is out of my budget.

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I think it depends a great deal on the plasma panel involved. My 50" Panny 2010 year VT20 has very indistinct shadow detail. It always has had, from day one. My 65" Sony 2013 X9004A UHD LCD has far clearer shadow detail (and, as I've mentioned, much darker blacks).

Jiang, I have to take your reported perception of colour realism for your eyes of certain plasma displays vs certain LCD displays at face value. If that's what your eyes tell you, that's what they tell you!

However as I've mentioned before on this forum, I myself am quite conscious that there is no red on a plasma or LED display to match certain reds we see in everyday life. I find the topic of "realism" somewhat artificial in these circumstances. In a particular hypothetical case, it may be possible to calibrate display A to within 4% of Rec 709, and display B to within 2% of Rec 709, but if Rec 709 is itself well short of displaying certain reds and greens, the colour will necessarily fall well short of realism for both display A and display B. (Here's a Wikipedia page that includes a Rec 709 diagram: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rec._709 ).

The most true to nature greens I can recall seeing on a display were on a Sony SXRD rear-pro (using the technology of an ultra high pressure lamp, with its broad spectrum output filtered down to ranges of Red Green and Blue wavelengths). I was stunned when I saw the greens. They reminded me of nature, rather than a mere electronic screen attempting to approximate nature.

I think you would agree there currently is little chance of mistaking a colourful scene displayed on a television screen for looking through an open window out onto reality. That is something we may hopefully get to enjoy some time in the future.

Since you mentioned a lot about calibration, have you actually calibrate a TV to ISF standard ? Just because display technologies falling short of near perfect it does not mean one type of display can display a more accurate and in many people's opinion more realistic picture than another display type. This is similar argument are been made in audio and hifi. Yes, we have TVs that have their short comings but it does not mean there is no difference in viewing experience when comparing display that is calibrated by ISF standard compare to preset setting on TVs.

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Since you mentioned a lot about calibration, have you actually calibrate a TV to ISF standard ? Just because display technologies falling short of near perfect it does not mean one type of display can display a more accurate and in many people's opinion more realistic picture than another display type. This is similar argument are been made in audio and hifi. Yes, we have TVs that have their short comings but it does not mean there is no difference in viewing experience when comparing display that is calibrated by ISF standard compare to preset setting on TVs.

No, like 99.9% of the general population I have not performed myself (or procured, i.e. arranged for someone else to do) a precise instrument assisted calibration of a TV. Certain earlier model sets of mine lacked controls permitting such an exercise. My latest set, an Australian Sony 2013 year 65" 4k LCD (model 9004A), is capable of being calibrated but I find its performance so good anyway, I haven't bothered to go to the trouble of trying to get the last drop of measurable accuracy out of the set. (It would be a somewhat complicated exercise too, given that the set has different display modes it launches into, depending on the type of source material it detects.) I have made various adjustments on the sets, to tweak the picture, but not with instrumentation.

The following is from a review of the United States version of my 65" 4k Sony LCD TV:

Delta E is a figure of merit indicating how close the color comes to the D65 HD standard at each point in the brightness range. Values below 3 some experts say 4 are generally considered visually indistinguishable from ideal.

In the Sony's Warm 2 Color Temperature setting, the average pre-calibration gray-scale Delta E was a fair 5.02, with a low of 1.67 at 20 percent brightness increasing steadily to a high of 7.95 at 100 percent. Post-calibration, the average gray-scale Delta E was 0.50, with no value higher than 1.20.

If post calibration Delta E averaged only 0.50, peaking at 1.20, and if experts agree that a Delta E below 3 (or some say 4) is considered "visually indistinguishable from the ideal", then it would appear that the calibrated grey scale performance was very good indeed.

The review continues, with detail relating to the colour Delta E [hard to measure because of the set's refusal to display a blue test pattern at full brightness for more than about a second]:

As with the earlier KDL-55W900A, a 2D blue test pattern automatically faded in brightness after a second or so, producing an unreliably high blue color Delta E reading. With blue included, the average post calibration color Delta E was 7.76, but none of the colors apart from blue had a color Delta E higher than 3.23.

It appears the post calibration underlying colour Delta E was around 3.23, another very good result, and arguably "visually indistinguishable from the ideal".

I note that these days it is quite usual for calibrated performance to lie within what is described as a range visually indistinguishable from reference. (And it is quite usual for uncalibrated ("out of the box" ) performance to be streets ahead of what was usual in the past.)

However, Jliang, I note again your position:

I never find LCD could produce realistic colour that a plasma can produce.

The part of the review I have quoted above, and on the same page a colour gamut plot, appear at http://www.soundandvision.com/content/sony-xbr-65x900a-3d-lcd-ultra-hdtv-ht-labs-measures#iG6jvu2vBZFoTUAo.97

From inspection of the graphs, it can be seen that the departure from D65 of the uncalibrated grey scale performance consisted almost entirely of too much red (i.e. a warm look). This was not all that surprising given that the setting the reviewers chose to examine was actually the Sony "Warm 2" setting!

Here are some brief anecdotal observations I have of the standard of colour to be seen in showrooms for flat panel displays over the years:-

In the Standard Definition years of flat panel displays I was very disappointed at the "comic book" type of colour to be seen on both the plasma and LCD displays I saw in showrooms. The advent of the High Definition colour standard (Rec 709) was a big step upwards but I was still seeing a sea of comic book colour when I entered showrooms. [However during that era, in Dec 2006, the Sony SXRD rear-pro television stood apart for my vision as having superior colour that was not "comic book" in appearance, but strikingly realistic. I bought one!]

As each year rolled on, displays kept improving (well the leading brands and models anyway). It got to the point that the colour looked extremely similar as between the different makes and models, and even between plasma and LCD technology. For my eyes, the main distinguishing characteristics between plasma and LCD screens in the showroom were in the realm of minimum black level, the gamma treatment of near blacks, the peak white level, and -- particularly after the advent of 3D - the extent of distracting flicker.

As an exception to the basic homogeneity of the appearance of display panel colour in recent years, I found some of the early UHD panels had particularly intense colour; interestingly, a look I had also noticed with the Kuros years before!

Edited by MLXXX

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HN staff tell me that in QLD the 65" LG OLED is on display in Toowoomba, at Bundall (Gold Coast), and at Oxley (Brisbane Southside).

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