Oled

[JSmith]

The whole thing seemed to be biased to AV nuts watching content in a dark room.This is not how 98% of people will be using there TV so the votes mean nothing to real world people.In any environment where the lights are on or it's daylight conditions the advantage of OLED v LCD in perceived black level is bugger all and one is double the price of the other.Pay twice as much but you have to watch it in total darkness to achieve any real benefit.It's your money so you decide if it's worth double the price.

I agree, but then there is that allure of knowing it's capability but not necessarily using that capability all the time...

JSmith

[TomW1503561432]

Really insightful discussion!

How does Panasonic's TX-65CZ952B compare with motion? http://www.panasonic.com/uk/consumer/viera-televisions/led/tx-65cz952b.html

[cwt]

I agree, but then there is that allure of knowing it's capability but not necessarily using that capability all the time...

JSmith

Oh but then you have to go back to ordinary j ; far too hard to take Seriously when you take into account the cost premium for a short lived superiority in HDR [ through dolby vision if the discs turn up] and WCG before hdmi 2.1 is introduced for better dynamic HDR metadata for everyones oled;uled and led ; I would tend to go with the best value as many would . And if it was only 65" maximum when theres bigger..

Nothing worse than to see depreciation hit your expensive panel With any luck uhd bluray will make a quick transition from 24p to 60 [if certain directors get their way] so judder wont be a factor for those who perceive it ; so many things in flux atm..

[Shankman]

Really insightful discussion!

How does Panasonic's TX-65CZ952B compare with motion? http://www.panasonic.com/uk/consumer/viera-televisions/led/tx-65cz952b.html

According to this review, looks to be the same as LGs current line :

Motion resolution 650 with [iFC] engaged; 300 otherwise

http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/tx65cz952b-201601044222.htm

It also references Sony's OLED broadcast monitors and the use of "rolling scan" instead of BFI. Maybe something LG and Panna can implement for future models.

"Sony’s OLED broadcast monitors, instead of blanking the entire screen, disrupt their native sample-and-hold nature by featuring a “rolling scan”. In these displays, a chunk of rows of the panel are set to black, meaning that every line on the OLED is not illuminated at once. Of course, this causes some flicker and decreases the light output of the display. Unlike a plasma which had to flash its pixels in various different configurations at ultra-high speed in order to draw a single 60, 96 or 100 Hz video frame and could therefore insert a very short, controlled burst of black, current OLED displays refresh at 120Hz, which is apparently too low a refresh rate for flicker-free, controlled dark frame insertion.
"

[sero]

The Sony 75" looks the goods

[Owen]

The whole thing seemed to be biased to AV nuts watching content in a dark room.This is not how 98% of people will be using there TV so the votes mean nothing to real world people.In any environment where the lights are on or it's daylight conditions the advantage of OLED v LCD in perceived black level is bugger all and one is double the price of the other.Pay twice as much but you have to watch it in total darkness to achieve any real benefit.It's your money so you decide if it's worth double the price.

The "dark room" tests where actually conducted in a dimly lit room that many people would use at night, not total darkness.

Most consumers dont give a rates about black level or contrast, if they did LCD would have died out long ago. They typically buy on price, physical appearance and features.

As long as the picture is bright and over colourful they are happy, picture accuracy and true image "quality" is not understood or appreciated by the masses.

[MLXXX]

This years VE shoot out between top fald sets and oled ; notwithstanding the samsungs qc problem ..

http://www.avsforum.com/value-electronics-2016-tv-shootout-results/

Further details now appear at http://www.avsforum.com/forum/138-avs-forum-podcasts/2501826-value-electronics-tv-shootout-2016-a.html#post45085818 . (I haven't had a chance to go through the material myself. I'll be interested in how colour accuracy was tested and assessed, when I do get a chance to look at the material.)

[MrC]

The "dark room" tests where actually conducted in a dimly lit room that many people would use at night, not total darkness.

Most consumers dont give a rates about black level or contrast, if they did LCD would have died out long ago. They typically buy on price, physical appearance and features.

As long as the picture is bright and over colourful they are happy, picture accuracy and true image "quality" is not understood or appreciated by the masses.

... and one of the reasons why the Pioneer Kuro did not sell well to the masses. Mine is still going strong. Heaven forbid if my 60" Kuro died ... Owen what would you recommend for me if this did happen. One of the OLED's ?

[cwt]

Further details now appear at http://www.avsforum.com/forum/138-avs-forum-podcasts/2501826-value-electronics-tv-shootout-2016-a.html#post45085818 . (I haven't had a chance to go through the material myself. I'll be interested in how colour accuracy was tested and assessed, when I do get a chance to look at the material.)

Was a little surprised when Joel Silver said he expects 4000nit by cedia time in a few short months then a trickle down effect for cheaper sets and describes the current players as ''entry level HDR sets'' . They had no time for gamuts and % of p3 for HDR signals but some panels had more peak luminance in HDR than others just using a light meter ..

I liked it when he said wheve gone from orange/reds to red reds with dci -p3 at about 32:39 on the podcast

Edited July 2, 2016 by cwt

[MLXXX]

Orange reds has been my gripe for a long time, cwt. I could never see on the screen some of the reds I routinely see in real life. It's a long video and I've only had a chance to watch the first half hour of it but I did note that *after calibration* colour was measurably very good on all of the displays.

Edited July 2, 2016 by MLXXX

[PLANT]

Yeah Owen what is your current setup?

[MLXXX]

Well I've now watched the whole of the YouTube video of Scott Wilkinson's interview of Robert Zohn who hosted the shootout sessions and Joel Silver, the presenter at the shootout sessions. There were remarks right at the end of the video to the effect that the after calibration differences for Rec 709 between the sets were minor. All of the sets performed well.

However differences for HDR were noticeable, not least because the HDR performance was out of the box, i.e. not calibrated. It's still early days for HDR.

Here are some of the remarks made at the end of the video:

Scot WILKINSON
1:09:12
scores to me... had a somewhat wider range than I might have expected given that so many people said they looked so similar to each other

Joel SILVER
1:10:05
this was a tough thing to judge, so minute differences became magnified

Robert ZOHN
1:10:19
when we demonstrated Rec 709 they looked almost identical

but in HDR you could see a difference

we need to be able to calibrate HDR and wide colour

[Owen]

... and one of the reasons why the Pioneer Kuro did not sell well to the masses. Mine is still going strong. Heaven forbid if my 60" Kuro died ... Owen what would you recommend for me if this did happen. One of the OLED's ?

Don't worry about it until you have to. The longer you can hold off the better IMHO.

[Owen]

Yeah Owen what is your current setup?

I'm a projector guy and use a JVC X900 for all movie viewing. Bluray source only.

As for TV's, I have a 65" Panasonic VT60 that I use for watching the ABC and SBS and the occasional Netflix, which I really should unsubscibe because we just don't watch it. Can't get the wife off Foxtel.

There are also three Samsung LCD's, one my wife uses daily and the other two are just there gathering dust, probably the best use for an LCD TV.

[metal beat]

The Sony 75" looks the goods

The top of range Sony 75 inch is the goods. And well cheaper than the LG.

My 940C has been faultless.

[Blackman1503561291]

The top of range Sony 75 inch is the goods. And well cheaper than the LG.

My 940C has been faultless.

I will settle for nothing smaller than 85 inch. Its impossible to go from 100 inch projection to a 65 inch LG OLED and I don't care how good it is. As it stands i'm trying to stand clear from projection for my next 4K display. Even the JVC X9000 (yes I know its eshift) is only a suggestion but not set in concrete.

Decisions whilst we save our money.

[jmone]

I agree with Blackman.... well I really want a 100 inch TV

[miata]

Well I've now watched the whole of the YouTube video of Scott Wilkinson's interview of Robert Zohn who hosted the shootout sessions and Joel Silver, the presenter at the shootout sessions. There were remarks right at the end of the video to the effect that the after calibration differences for Rec 709 between the sets were minor. All of the sets performed well.

However differences for HDR were noticeable, not least because the HDR performance was out of the box, i.e. not calibrated. It's still early days for HDR.

Here are some of the remarks made at the end of the video:

Scot WILKINSON

1:09:12

scores to me... had a somewhat wider range than I might have expected given that so many people said they looked so similar to each other

Joel SILVER

1:10:05

this was a tough thing to judge, so minute differences became magnified

Robert ZOHN

1:10:19

when we demonstrated Rec 709 they looked almost identical

but in HDR you could see a difference

we need to be able to calibrate HDR and wide colour

Well the software now has a standard that it can follow, so hopefully it's being written already. http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/bt2100-201607104318.htm

[Shankman]

Interesting that the standard has set minimum peak luminance at 1000 nits with no alternative for OLED.

Not sure what impact this will have for OLED calibration?

[cwt]

Well the software now has a standard that it can follow, so hopefully it's being written already. http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/bt2100-201607104318.htm

And hopefully with hdmi2.0b in place the hdr10 metadata can be precisely dynamically mapped to this calibration standard and not get the hit and miss we have now with hdmi2.0a static metadata

[MLXXX]

Interesting that the standard has set minimum peak luminance at 1000 nits with no alternative for OLED.

Not sure what impact this will have for OLED calibration?

One issue is that OLEDs may use an automatic brightness level control that throttles back substantially the brightness of a full white screen. Perhaps that will be ignored in a calibration context: it will be enough if a reasonable fraction of the screen area can be operated at full brightness.

Another issue is the potentially significant rate of brightness decrease of OLED panels as a function of hours of use. A lot of effort has been devoted to improving this aspect of OLED performance. It was a serious issue several years ago. I'm not sure what representations manufacturers are making now as to how long their OLED panels can be expected to be operated before the maximum brightness drops to, say, 50% of the performance when new.

[As an aside, and in a very different context, I am often disappointed by the drop in brightness of compact fluorescent domestic lighting. Promoted as environmentally friendly and cheap to operate, I've found that these costly light bulbs tend to dim with use to such an extent that after a while they are less than 50% of original brightness and need to be replaced. I'm not sure how much cheaper they really are overall!]

Edit: If a particular screen can't reach 1000 nits it would not be the end of the world. It should be possible to apply a compromise calibration that gives a reasonable approximation to "reference" HDR performance. Presumably suggestions as to how that could be done will be forthcoming.

Edited July 12, 2016 by MLXXX

[IviewHD]

The B6 model is now listed on the LG website and with JB Hi Fi.If you take off 20% from the opening rrp it gives you a realistic street price of $6.4k for the 65" model.I had a play around with the E6 model last weekend which seems to have the same specs as the B6 with a harmon kardon soundbar added along the bottom edge.This is the first OLED i have tested to pass the minimum standard required to qualify as a genuine replacement to my Samsung F8500 plasma in that it has a consistent image across the screen in both light and dark test material.If we can get a bit of down would pressure on price LG may be poised to kill off LCD as a premium product and banish it to a bargain basement technollogy.

[MLXXX]

This is the first OLED i have tested to pass the minimum standard required to qualify as a genuine replacement to my Samsung F8500 plasma in that it has a consistent image across the screen in both light and dark test material.If we can get a bit of down would pressure on price LG may be poised to kill off LCD as a premium product and banish it to a bargain basement technollogy.

The thing is though that you would currently be in a minority in having an issue with what you've described as "a consistent image across the screen in both light and dark test material". The average consumer is not a videophile.

For the general public, LCD screens have been more appealing than plasma screens for some time, judging by the dwindling sales figures leading up to the time of the demise of plasma. It remains to be seen when and if OLED will become so much more appealing to the public than LCD, that high-end large screen LCDs will be forced down to bargain basement prices.

I think LCD technology has some time left yet. The move to HDR is a technological and marketing challenge for OLED. Will OLEDs be able to consistently deliver the very high light output that has now been specified for HDR?

It'd be great too to see OLED sets in Australia beyond those manufactured by LG.

For active glasses 3D, I'd be very interested in an OLED set that could offer rapid alternation between left and right (at least a 144Hz true alternation rate for a 24fps 3D source) to minimize the time offset between the left and right views, and clean (virtually instantaneous) switching between the views to minimise 3D crosstalk. In theory this should be possible with OLED. This matter has been a difficult challenge for flat panels in the past because of the significant phosphor persistence times of plasma subpixels, and the significant grey to grey transition times of LCD subpixels.

Edited July 22, 2016 by MLXXX

[sero]

Unless every manufacturer starts making OLED panels they simply wont take off. It doesnt matter how good they look or perform. The general public is simply not interested in better blacks and all the other goodies that we all crave. They want the biggest tv for the cheapest price they can get. Why do you think Kogan is a billionaire lol. They will be lucky to sell 5 OLED tvs in each store.

[duke]

So what is better between a 4K OLED without HDR and 4K LCD with HDR?