Ps50c7000 Ps58c7000 Ps63c7000 3d Ghosting / Crosstalk Issues

[andys]

I've contacted Samsung (and their head tech) to investigate this further. I think maybe Samsung have messed up in one of their recent firmwares (3002 or 3003), as that is also when they fixed up the '3d picture correction' option.

I think you might be on to something there. I was thinking in the back of my mind that it hadn't been quite the same since the 3000 updates. Let us know if you hear back from Samsung.

Andys.

[andys]

Just noticed there's a new fw version up on the Samsung website for the C7000 - version 3005.1

Andys.

[marauderxp]

Yeah the 3005.1 came out yesterday/today, but I already updated and made no difference to the 3d. In fact every single file is exactly the same byte size as the previous update, so don't know what's going on there.

Will post whatever info I get back from Samsung.

[marauderxp]

It's interesting to note that Samsung's firmware updates are released for the same series of both LED and Plasma at the same time, same version and everything. Maybe they've been using same code to reduce crosstalk for both LED and Plasma and it has made it worse for the Plasma?

[andys]

Yeah the 3005.1 came out yesterday/today, but I already updated and made no difference to the 3d. In fact every single file is exactly the same byte size as the previous update, so don't know what's going on there.

Will post whatever info I get back from Samsung.

You're right, it's made no difference and as you say every file is the same size at 3004. Maybe a placebo fw update.

Andys.

Edited December 7, 2010 by andys

[Tiles]

Tiles, I was hoping you could please contact the store and ask them to check what firmware version (will show under software upgrade) they are using? I'm guessing they may be on the older firmware.

I had my ps58c7000 replaced 3 weeks ago for something unrelated to 3d, and with this one I am noticing an incredible amount of crosstalk, something I never had on the old one. There were a couple of firmware updates made available around the time I had my tv replaced but I didn't update at the time. I updated this new one to the latest before I viewed any 3d content.

I've contacted Samsung (and their head tech) to investigate this further. I think maybe Samsung have messed up in one of their recent firmwares (3002 or 3003), as that is also when they fixed up the '3d picture correction' option.

This is all I can think of, as it's nothing to do with the panel, I can't see the board being at fault.

But it would be interesting to know what firmware that TV you saw in the store is on.

I'm running firmware 3004 but I raised this issue in another forum as before I had received the 3d bonus bluray player and starter kit, I did not update the firmware from original purchased end september, and had only watched the 2d-3d conversion on FTA and DVD's which actually worked well on HD shows like CSI etc. which became really sharp and created definate depth.

Then not long before I received the 3d bluray player I also updated the firmware to one of the 3000's and immediatley noticed the 2d-3d conversion was no where near as sharp and added no real depth to HD content. And for the first time I saw ghosting on the 2d-3d (before I could turn the 3d depth up to 10, although looking a little too much it still showed no ghosting).

Tried not to think too much of it until the 3d bluray player came and I was pretty dissapointed to see the crosstalk really bad on MVA's pretty much throughout the entire movie (except when the characters were the perfect sort of distance away then they were displayed without any ghosting). Even when played the bluray Knight and Day in 2d to 3d there was ghosting around characters with 3d depth set on 6.

As I've said before I'm pretty sure places like David Jones and Myer (which I have both seen to have no crosstalk at all) do not update there firmware as I was there a week ago to have another look in Myer and when I asked the guy who was trying to sell me the TV if I could check it out with the glassses, he came back with a pair of panasonic glasses and I had to explain to him the glasses need to match the TV lol.

Out of curiosity why was your tv replaced and how old was it? Starting to think I would not mind starting from scratch and never upgrade another firmware EVER!!! lol

One last thing on this huge post, how did you contact the samsung head tech as I only got the drone on the phone who repeatedly told me to update to the latest firmware after I explained to him I only got problems after upgrading to the latest? Then he booked me in a service call which still hasn't come. I wouldn't mind speaking to someone who knows what their talking about also.

[marauderxp]

You're right, it's made no difference and as you say every file is the same size at 3004. Maybe a placebo fw update.

Andys.

:lol: true! from the new placebo firmware development department

Maybe needs placebo compatible model tv tho hmmm?

Well nothing back from Samsung today, but a case analyst from the Samsung service division (hopefully not the placebo division?) has assured me it is being investigated by the head tech.

I wouldn't mind at all if they just put the old firmware back up,done up in a new fw of course as fw on these current tv's can't be downgraded, only by board replacement with older fw loaded. That's actually what is in the works for me at the moment, local Samsung service centre organising for a board with the one before 3002. So if no fw fix is done soon, maybe you guys might wanna do the same?

[marauderxp]

Out of curiosity why was your tv replaced and how old was it? Starting to think I would not mind starting from scratch and never upgrade another firmware EVER!!! lol

One last thing on this huge post, how did you contact the samsung head tech as I only got the drone on the phone who repeatedly told me to update to the latest firmware after I explained to him I only got problems after upgrading to the latest? Then he booked me in a service call which still hasn't come. I wouldn't mind speaking to someone who knows what their talking about also.

Mine was replaced because it was showing quite a bit of colour bleed and the panel seemed brighter in some areas and perhaps slight burnin. It was actually a display model. It was only 4 months old.

lol about the store dude bringing out Panasonic glasses for it! At least it wouldn't have shown any ghosting whatsoever?

All you'll need is a replacement board with whatever firmware you want loaded, so yeah if they don't come out with a fix (which I'm sure they will), might be worth booking a service call. In fact maybe you should anyway just for them to come out and see it and report it. The more reports Samsung gets the quicker they might act on it.

With the head tech, I haven't contacted him directly. It was through someone at the Samsung resolutions team in the service division as I was contemplating a refund.

I'll PM you

[MLXXX]

Here's a review that blames authoring, sort of, but with more than a bit of backpedalling (Engadget 3DTV roundup - picture quality):

The funny thing is cross-talk seems to be related more to the content than anything else. What we mean is that if one TV had cross-talk exposed in the trees in the background of Open Season, the other models did too. Some scenes were worse than others which

makes us think it's more of a problem in the authoring

process than the display itself.

But one thing is for sure, the Panasonic and the LG sets seemed to be able to eliminate the cross-talk

in those problem scenes.

It surprises me that a review specifically on 3DTVs can be worded so vaguely, and reflect no follow up research on a crucial matter such as crosstalk. The review immediately goes on to remark:

This being said, while this is just as good of reason as any other to buy a 3DTV, we don't think the difference was big enough that we'd use it as our determining factor. Really, the ability of a 3DTV to eliminate cross-talk is a single aspect of a single feature and hardly a big deal.

Yes, it's only relevant when using the 3D TV to watch 3D...

I guess if crosstalk is only mild and occasional, it really isn't a big deal.

Edited December 7, 2010 by MLXXX

[marauderxp]

Well before these recent firmwares, I never remembered having any crosstalk at all. And it's exactly the same 3d footage as before. I recorded Origin 3d and the demo loops they were running. The perfect scene which shows the crosstalk is on the big 9 3d logo. Never had it before..

What threw me off track a bit was the cooincidence of me getting my tv replaced during all these recent firmware updates. But then I got thinking that the now greater crosstalk can't really be because of the panel or the board, and it's seeming definite now from others that it is firmware.

[MLXXX]

Hopefully a further firmware update will improve the crosstalk situation.

Edited December 7, 2010 by MLXXX

[Tiles]

I had never seen crosstalk instore or at home ever until after I got around to upgrading the firmware in late october I think it was.

Mind you I had only watched rugby league 3d and the afl and 2d to 3d but I had never experienced it.

Thanks Marauderxp for email address surely the more people they get documenting the problem they will really have to address it.

Each further firmware has not changed 3d at all.

[marauderxp]

No probs

I was just looking at trying to modify/hex edit an older FW from October for TV to recognise it as updateable, but hmm very much encrypted and everything. Looked at the firmware hack guides on Samygo, but these are different type of firmwares

[Tiles]

This is a really dumbed down simple way for anyone is isn't quite sure what the ghosting is I'm talking about.

In Monsters VS Aliens 35 minutes 52 secs in (chapter 10) as they are all getting on the ship, press pause and have a look at the lights on the left of the boarding ramp.

Take the glasses off and you should see 2 white circles (the take off lights).

Now hold the glasses up in front of you so that you only look through the left lense and you will notice you can still see the left light fully lit but the lense partially blocks the right light so it is only half visible.

Now hold up the glasses so that you only look through the right lense and you will see the right light fully lit but the left light is now partially blocked.

Now slowly brings the glasses up while looking at the 2 lights and between the 2 there becomes 1 bright light with 2 partially visible lights either side of it.

I picked this light sequence as it probably demonstrates best how the picture is getting it wrong.

Also try 42 minutes 46 seconds, pause and try the same thing on the vertical cables on the bridge. Although fainter you can still easily see the same thing occuring.

Just my opinion but I think possibly the firmware upgrades have caused a problem with the shutter speed syncing between tv and glasses causing the glasses to slightly continue showing the image which should be blocked out completely.

Obviously I think there will be parts of 3d content where the transfer is to blame but not throughout the entire movie like it is especially when I can't spot it on the instore display models probably with old firmware.

Keep giving your feedback much appreciated

[marauderxp]

Awesome stuff (feedback). Yep exactly same kinda thing I saw with Avatar 3d.

And from what I've gathered, it seems the worsened crosstalk issue is with all recent TVALDEUC firmwares (europe, oceana etc - all the PS models). Somewhere I read people in eur reporting increased ghosting recently.

All PN models - TVALAUSC (US etc) firmwares seems to be ok and sounds like their recent fw reduced crosstalk a little more for them.

Another idea to add to yours... I wonder if they've tried to fix up the loss of sync issue with the glasses that was always there from the beginning? Well I think everyone had that prob anyway? where on scenes where changes in brightness, glasses would lose sync for a moment. I discovered long ago that a piece of electrical tape covering 99% of the IR sensor on the glasses fixed it up. But yeah wondering if that might also be related?

Edited December 7, 2010 by marauderxp

[Tiles]

Awesome stuff (feedback). Yep exactly same kinda thing I saw with Avatar 3d.

And from what I've gathered, it seems the worsened crosstalk issue is with all recent TVALDEUC firmwares (europe, oceana etc - all the PS models). Somewhere I read people in eur reporting increased ghosting recently.

All PN models - TVALAUSC (US etc) firmwares seems to be ok and sounds like their recent fw reduced crosstalk a little more for them.

Another idea to add to yours... I wonder if they've tried to fix up the loss of sync issue with the glasses that was always there from the beginning? Well I think everyone had that prob anyway? where on scenes where changes in brightness, glasses would lose sync for a moment. I discovered long ago that a piece of electrical tape covering 99% of the IR sensor on the glasses fixed it up. But yeah wondering if that might also be related?

yea good thinking as ive noticed same complaints on uk sites which we obviously have shared the same firmware updates but havent found any real similar problems on the US sites which they obviously receive different versions for their sets as i think there last was nov 22nd version 1032 or something like that. Just hope they fix it shortly as its probly been 1.5 months since the bad upgrade and samsung arnt even saying they are working on a the problem. Ill try n check out myers firmware version if i get a chance

[Tiles]

Dropped in David Jones where I actually bought the tv from and checked out what firmware they were running on the 58 and 63 I had watched at length in the past and they were the 28th May 2010 version 1013 which is what I thought they haven't upgraded the firmware since new.

I'm sure going back to that firmware there would be things you'd run into that have been updated in newer versions but the 3d as far as I could tell was always great with genuine pop and zero ghosting and watching the soccer in HD today looked great also.

Checked Myer but they have no samsung glasses left for demo despite still running MVA's in 3d, so I went to HN where I couldn't watch the c7000's but I did watch the 9000 LED I think it was for like $8K??.. All I can say is wow, I thought mine was showing ghosting? This thing was awful even through the really bright colour sequences, you didn't need dark colours to see the ghosting it was that bad. Only watched a bit of a demo disk showing bit of MVA's and some other stuff like fish swimming and the Black Eyed Peas concert so can't comment on proper movie but it made me feel better about our problem (and the extra $5,500 in the pocket).

[marauderxp]

HEy good info again to share, thanks!

And yeah I sort of feel better too knowing about how bad it is with the LED's. I think Samsung have tried hard lately with firmwares to try and get it best as possible on the LEDs. Maybe they increased it on Plasmas to make people with LEDs feel better? just kiddin of course.

I think a firmware like 2004 would be good. Yeah 1013 is a bit TOO old hey. That's probably back with the loss of HDMI input problem which is what I had a couple of times when I first bought mine.

I think they need to go about their firmwares a little differently, maybe releasing it as a beta version first and allowing us the time to test but also having the option to go back to the last final firmware through the 'alternative software' option in the menu. I have a feeling they don't do much testing of new firmware.. ?

In the meantime, I'm still going to pursue a board replacement with earlier firmware loaded. Trouble is, when new updates come out, I'll always be worried about updating lol.

[marauderxp]

deleted my post

thought I had struck another idea but was clutching at 3d straws!

Edited December 8, 2010 by marauderxp

[marauderxp]

Got an email regarding the board replacement with downgraded firmware. They said that it can't be downgraded lower than the previous version which sucks. I sure hope then that the firmware development guys are working on the problem. Was thinking maybe all it is is that they've increased the seperation to try and maximise the 3d effect?

I actually also requested a buffer scan board replacement as the line bleed/banding is a bit worse on this TV than the last one.

[Owen]

The down sides of updating firmware are rearing their ugly head.

A wise man ones said, “If it ain't broken don’t fix it.”

Edited December 9, 2010 by Owen

[marauderxp]

Got a call from Samsung earlier today asking a few questions about the crosstalk problem as he was preparing a report to send to HQ in about 5 mins. He said he himself tested it out by updating firmware and noticed more crosstalk too. He said HQ were "jumping up and down about it" and want the problem fixed. So hopefully next week some time we might have a firmware fix.

Edited December 10, 2010 by marauderxp

[Tiles]

Got a call from Samsung earlier today asking a few questions about the crosstalk problem as he was preparing a report to send to HQ in about 5 mins. He said he himself tested it out by updating firmware and noticed more crosstalk too. He said HQ were "jumping up and down about it" and want the problem fixed. So hopefully next week some time we might have a firmware fix.

sounds good i emailed that address you sent me and he said he's onto it so yea hopefully samsung are getting the message. Got a tech coming tuesday so not really sure i want him poking around changing boards and what not if theres going to be a fix shortly (wishful thinking). I dont know if its my eyes or what but ten hd (ONEHD) looks **** now normally the NBA and NFL looks really sharp and clear but to me looks like SD now? Think im losing it haha

[marauderxp]

lol, yeah I know what you mean.

Maybe we're just paying a lot more attention to the pic than we used to because of the increased crosstalk with 3d now.

One thing I've gotta do is stop being obsessed with checking the firmware page for an update lol. I see they updated the 'power consumption gude' yesterday. That's of little use hmm

[Tiles]

2 weeks and i havent had another call back from service dept (they said 1 or 2 days) to organise service appointment so i rang them again and they booked in tuesday 3:45 which came and went yesterday with no sign of them. Ive tried calling samsung several times but no one seems to know anything, all just drones who "aren't qualified to answer that sorry". Unless there is a firmware update shortly which actually addresses the 3d ghosting i think i mite push for a refund and get the panasonic. Hope it doesnt come to that but my experience with samsung has been nothing but shite! You guys had any luck or updates??