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snorri

Panasonic Plasma Time Bombs?

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Why would anyone expect an inexpensive and uncalibrated G10 or V10 Panasonic to have perfect colour accuracy? Even a Pioneer at double the price is not any better without calibration.

Current Panasonics are better and cheaper than any previous model but that’s not good enough apparently. No doubt the next models will be expected to be better and cheaper. :rolleyes:

A reality check is in order people.

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Why would anyone expect an inexpensive and uncalibrated G10 or V10 Panasonic to have perfect colour accuracy? Even a Pioneer at double the price is not any better without calibration.

Current Panasonics are better and cheaper than any previous model but that’s not good enough apparently. No doubt the next models will be expected to be better and cheaper. :rolleyes:

A reality check is in order people.

AMEN :D

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I've done exactly the same thing. The longer they hold out and pussyfoot around the questions (like they're doing), the more you start to think these issues do infact exist on the Australian models. It's pretty easy to say no they don't exist, but I guess a lot harder to say yes and deal with the consequences.

Andy.

Well Said

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Why would anyone expect an inexpensive and uncalibrated G10 or V10 Panasonic to have perfect colour accuracy? Even a Pioneer at double the price is not any better without calibration.

Current Panasonics are better and cheaper than any previous model but that’s not good enough apparently. No doubt the next models will be expected to be better and cheaper. :rolleyes:

A reality check is in order people.

This thread isnt about people wanting thier TV's to exceed thier potential (I didnt start the thread so do correct me if I am wrong OP). But about keeping an eye out for an issue that has come to light and to understand whether there is any substance to it.

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This thread isnt about people wanting thier TV's to exceed thier potential (I didnt start the thread so do correct me if I am wrong OP). But about keeping an eye out for an issue that has come to light and to understand whether there is any substance to it.

Well Said

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But the thing is, there are no technical standards to say how it should look are there? So the argument could be "well, you cannot expect the performance of the set to be identical over its life period, however the design ensures that at end of life, the set is still producing exceptional results". So just because people measure a measurable difference after a certain time period is almost meaningless to how it looks after that time period? As far as I am aware, the Panasonic Plasmas even with this problem are still best of breed performance for black levels and colour reproduction, so how can the fact it may have changed a little be grounds for class actions and lynch mobbing and the junk I am reading here and somewhat over at AVS, especially when I don't think anyone here has proven they can even see this difference!??!?!?

This is going to end up like the gold plated $200 a metre speaker cable argument. People are going to insist they believe it sounds better with that cable because they read the cable was better, and double blind tests have shown that people cannot tell the difference between a coat hanger and this expensive cable, I think the same thing is now happening with the Panasonic, people are believing their set is now terrible because they read about this issue, without actually observing the differences for themselves. Psychologically they will believe they have been jipped and they have noticed a change, when chances are, these changes referenced in the 1st message of that AVSforum thread are extremely subtle, all because they read that all Panasonic plasmas have this issue.

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Seems to me there is a lot of speculation and little fact.

Who here in Oz has experienced the issue? Anyone?

(OK I am being lazy and not reading the thread in detail from start to finish)

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As far as I am aware, the Panasonic Plasmas even with this problem are still best of breed performance for black levels and colour reproduction

This is just not true. There is a noticeable difference when the voltage increase occurs at 1000 hours (or whenever it is) and this puts a whole lot of other products ahead of the Pana's in black levels. These would include the Samsung plasma's and probably also the Samsung LED's and Bravia's.

It is not good enough that the black levels rise from about 0.18 to 0.38 (if memory serves me correctly) over a 3-5 month period. These results are measurable and are real as posted on AVS by extremely well respected professional calibrators. What you see in the showroom before you buy should be what you see for a much more considerable time than a few months.

Psychologically they will believe they have been jipped and they have noticed a change, when chances are, these changes referenced in the 1st message of that AVSforum thread are extremely subtle, all because they read that all Panasonic plasmas have this issue.

These changes are not subtle. Blacks that were very black and are now grey is not acceptable and one of the reasons many chose the plasma technology over LCD/LED in the first place.

The longer Pana Aus, try to ignore this issue and treat their customers like morons the more they will ruin their brand. In an age when Pana are almost the last players in the plasma business, it seems stupid for them to not get on top of this and make a press release asap. Customers then would be a lot more forgiving if they could see the company doing whatever they could to rectify the issue. I have already put off the purchase of another Pana plasma because of this debacle and if this persists much longer will never buy another Panasonic product as long as I live. I think there will be a lot of damage done by this issue if it is not dealt with by Pana soon.

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Seems to me there is a lot of speculation and little fact.

Who here in Oz has experienced the issue? Anyone?

(OK I am being lazy and not reading the thread in detail from start to finish)

+1

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Bertzz, Have you seen any significant change in the black levels in your plasma to date ?

C.M

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Bertzz, Have you seen any significant change in the black levels in your plasma to date ?

C.M

No, mine is fairly new and has less than 1000 hours on it, but I am in the market for another set and not prepared to buy from Pana until I know what the outcome of this is. Some might say, just sit back and enjoy until something affects you and it may never. But with the evidence presented on AVS it is very worrying and common sense tells me that this will not be a US only problem. In addition, in this very thread here in Aus have mentioned that they have noticed the change and that it was very noticable.

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But with the evidence presented on AVS it is very worrying and common sense tells me that this will not be a US only problem.

Common sense don't always work.. E.g. my ex BD player BD-P1500 is different here in AUS and in UK (no idea if US has this model). In fact models in Australia itself behave differently... People bricked their WDTVLive but I have no problems with upgrading firmwares (*touch wood*)..

The best approach is to wait for something concrete (whatever results the US has done is irreverent). When a problem develops, contact Panasonic and have it checked out. Don't go calling Panasonic and bombard them with "is this true" type of questions. What kind of answer do you expect? Instead, wait for users in this forum to come up with something concrete (and proof).

No speculation, no propaganda (I'd be very surprised if there aren't competitors in here trying to mud Panasonic :ninja:), just solid facts. And armed with facts, Panasonic has to address this issue, if there is one.

That's what a forum should be used for (sharing of knowledge), not to fuel fear/paranoia and result in potential lost sales to Panasonic (don't really care myself but I'm just worried they may sue)..

As the AVS thread seem to indicate, when it happens, it will be impossible to miss.. So sit back, relax and pray hard :ninja:.... Actually one don't have to be that religious since a reset can easily fix the problem (an no bad consequence AFAICR)...

Life is short. Don't worry about something that may or may not happen.... 1000hrs is a short wait, enjoy it and wait for it. Why stress now?

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No, mine is fairly new and has less than 1000 hours on it, but I am in the market for another set and not prepared to buy from Pana until I know what the outcome of this is. Some might say, just sit back and enjoy until something affects you and it may never. But with the evidence presented on AVS it is very worrying and common sense tells me that this will not be a US only problem. In addition, in this very thread here in Aus have mentioned that they have noticed the change and that it was very noticable.
I agree with Treblid.

Too many different variables between USA and Aust. Different power, PAL vs NTSC, possibly a different source for the electronics, etc etc.

I'd like to hear concrete evidence.

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I'd like to hear concrete evidence.

There is concrete evidence as posted here in this very thread in earlier pages of people with G10 and V10 seeing a noticeable difference. They may not have posted actual black level measurements but I dont need that to be convinced there is a problem with sets here. If you must see these readings for yourself in person to be convinced then thats fine, but I dont.

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There is concrete evidence as posted here in this very thread in earlier pages of people with G10 and V10 seeing a noticeable difference. They may not have posted actual black level measurements but I dont need that to be convinced there is a problem with sets here. If you must see these readings for yourself in person to be convinced then thats fine, but I dont.
In Australia?And it can't be fixed by a reset?

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There is concrete evidence as posted here in this very thread in earlier pages of people with G10 and V10 seeing a noticeable difference. They may not have posted actual black level measurements but I dont need that to be convinced there is a problem with sets here. If you must see these readings for yourself in person to be convinced then thats fine, but I dont.

There is no concrete evidence. Bradles seem to have a problem. so did torana355. Both may or may not be real.. Because somebody else raced down and had a look at his plasma and still see it as black as ever. Hell changing a light bulb or wall colour will probably change the colour.

Never trust your eyes and ears. Both need time to adjust to the surroundings.. Use an instrument to take the reading, take pics if necessary (and if you know how).

And modern TVs nowadays have "smarts", e.g. changing video settings accordingly to the level of brighness in the room.

Maybe that's buggered, could be anything, could be nothing.

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There is no concrete evidence. Bradles seem to have a problem. so did torana355. Both may or may not be real.. Because somebody else raced down and had a look at his plasma and still see it as black as ever. Hell changing a light bulb or wall colour will probably change the colour.

Never trust your eyes and ears. Both need time to adjust to the surroundings.. Use an instrument to take the reading, take pics if necessary (and if you know how).

And modern TVs nowadays have "smarts", e.g. changing video settings accordingly to the level of brighness in the room.

Maybe that's buggered, could be anything, could be nothing.

+1

And also the reply from Panasonic is that is you think you have a problem (as shown by previous email responses) :

" If you are experiencing these issues, your product will need to be inspected by an Authorised Service Centre "

So if you have the problem do that, if you do not then do nothing. There is sfa else you can do and no point even worrying about it. You might have a car accident when you next drive also but presumably you do not worry about that possibility either.

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Yeah I wouldn't stress.

It's almost like if a GM vehicle from the US was recalled, & you start worrying about your Holden here.

Though I guess making Panasonic Australia aware of the problems overseas can't hurt.

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I use a HD test card for setting up monitors and TV’s.

It will easily allow you to see if the blacks on your TV are changing over time.

http://www.descargasvideoedicion.org/.desc...d-test-card.png

Just save to hard disk and transfer to SD card then insert card into Panasonic.

This explains what the patterns on the test card mean and how to make use of them when adjusting the TV controls.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/bbcinternet/200...from_the_h.html

Here is a pic of the test card being displayed on a Panasonic TV.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v621/rec.../HDtestcard.jpg

That won't tell me if the amount of light emitted at black is changing, without using my eyes, which automatically adjust. The problem reported is that even at full negative brightness, the black (or 0.0.0 RGB) is not as dark as it was. Ie. black pre 1000 hours might be 1 candle power, post 1000 hours its 2 candles, or lumens, or whatever.

I can make use of that card during my testing in combination with a fixed exposure that doesn't automatically adjust, however I was planning on using a solid black background from my HTPC using HDMI.

I had better get to it soon! Just over 100 hours left...

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The black level issue would appear to be a deliberate design choice on the part of Panasonic as is the THX colour issue, its very unlikely that these design choices are different on the US models.

If a Panasonic owner with 1000 plus hours on their set has a good digital SLR camera take a photo (with fixed exposure settings) of a TV displaying video black in a dark room (with the brightness control turned well down) and compare it to a photo of a new set taken under the same conditions. Black level in the photos can be compared in a photo editor that shows digital levels in the image. Alternatively a sensitive light meter can be used, colour meters used for colour calibration (that don’t cost thousands) are not typically sensitive enough to take reliable and repeatable measurement at very low levels.

The THX colour issue was addressed by a firmware fix back in August-September and it is very unlikely that Panasonic would not use that revised firmware in TV’s produced after that time for US or AU models. Some simple measurements with reliable test equipment would settle the issue once and for all.

Since Panasonic owners are not all complaining about colour in THX mode its reasonable to assume the problem is very minor and probably does not exists at all in sets made after September.

Don’t expect Panasonic to be proactive on these issues as 95% of customers will never notice any problem and never complain, Panasonic will only deal with customers who make a fuss and have a legitimate problem.

So if you people are interested in knowing the answers get off your back sides, get together and make it happen rather than complaining and waiting for someone else to make the effort. There must be at least one Panasonic owner who has had their set professionally calibrated by someone like Aaron, get onto him and ask about the colour issue.

Edited by Owen

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So if you people are interested in knowing the answers get off your back sides, get together and make it happen rather than complaining and waiting for someone else to make the effort. There must be at least one Panasonic owner who has had their set professionally calibrated by someone like Aaron, get onto him and ask about the colour issue.

+1... Well said...

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I have a THX Mode colour issue on a TH-P54Z1A.It simply looks bloody stupid to me like everything goes pink so my solution to that is never use it :P .I couldn't give a rats about THX i can ajust my own set to get it looking good but if i lose the deep blacks i have now in a few months time i will be spitting chips i can tell you that.I will certainly be taking pics now and on constant alert for any change in black level performance in the coming months.

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The last couple of posts express reasonable views as to how these "possible" issues should be pursued, and I would also accept that certain levels of debate / whingeing / or venting, is ultimately fruitless. However, surely the guys here are entitled to post these views.

Certainly I am interested in aspects of the posts and an happy to discard those parts that I do not see as beneficial, so I know I appear to contrary (especially to Owen recently - although I would say thank you to him for the 'caveats' included in his recent explanations), but I for one, and I am hoping I am not alone, would not want anyone to deter these posters.

(of course if I AM alone.. I apologise for being so selfish).

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I was just wondering if this might be a mistake in measurement, where the measurement of .038 was inadvertently taken where 'image retention' may still have existed on the screen. This would certainly give rise to error in a comparative measurement of black levels.

C.M

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And also the reply from Panasonic is that is you think you have a problem (as shown by previous email responses) :

" If you are experiencing these issues, your product will need to be inspected by an Authorised Service Centre "

So if you have a warranty issue are you meant to call Panasonic first or do you just take it direct to the authorised service centre?

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