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snorri

Panasonic Plasma Time Bombs?

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I have only one way of measuring it that I can think of (without buying a testing rig) - a Canon EOS dSLR set at a certain exposure at a certain ISO with tight control on the amount of external light.

Lets say a 1/50 exposure equals black today, and in 4 weeks it equals grey, I will be concerned. But I have to admit that it has never been as black as the bezel in darkness, more like a shade of "light black" lol (I came from a 76CM Panasonic HD CRT which was, errr, blacker - ie it didn't emit any light)

Having said that, I think I will only test after the 1000 hours if I notice a change with my eyes. There is no point in pixel peeping at a few pics just to feel ripped off if I don't even notice anything with my naked eye. Time will tell...

Edited by bigjezza

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I have a September 09 50V10 and I had noticed a change in the blacks before I read this thread. I thought maybe I was imagining it but perhaps there is something going on here. To my eyes, the blacks really look nothing like they did during the first few days/weeks. I'm not sure how many hours the set has done; I haven't checked that yet.

At the moment I still think the blacks are very reasonable, but if there is a valid issue here I hope Panasonic can remedy it with a firmware update

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300-ish hours here 50G10 and 1 month old..almost, seriously i wouldn't have bought the thing if I had known and I cannot fathom anyone buying one with this solid knowledge the web has given, better brands to buy that will outperform this TV in around 3 months time.

It will cost us $733 per month for a tv that we wouldn't freely choose to own at 4 months, now that's an expensive TV! and who would buy it for what it should be worth at 4 months, 6m, 12m (1000h) old now!

Panasonic did us over like a dinner.

I bought 2 50G10 since Christmas one for my nephew and his wife IF this fading of blacks to gray is correct I am / will be pissed off. Panasonic spent money picking up Pioneers Kruo team and some of the patents I would have thought good blacks would have been a priority for Panasonic. cheers alan

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The change in black levels is inevitable, when the set is brand new the pixels are hyper-sensitive and naturally have a wider dynamic range for light transmission, which results in a higher contrast ratio than after years of use.

As the phosphors 'wear in' their sensitivity must also decline over time with the subsequent loss of brightness. As the dynamic range of the pixel's phosphor decreases so to will it's ability to reproduce the grey scale within its capable working range before 'blooming'.

Increasing the brightness or the contrast settings will not have any effect on this inevitable change in pixel sensitivity and the resulting loss of contrast and black levels......it's just 'wear and tear'. Also if the screen is worked too hard with high brightness and contrast settings in game playing the gas contained in the cells for the pixels will be overworked and this could also lead to loss of brightness and contrast.

So to offset this 'wear and tear' somewhat would be not to run the screen at too high a contrast level, which tends to be the case when one first gets it out of the box and views the screen for the 'run in' period.

A CRT monitor will lose its 'vitality' in presenting a high quality image with years of use to one where the image is simply washed out by the loss of contrast, this being caused by the loss of pixel sensitivity and beam current. Pixel size also has its part in it, the smaller the pixel the harder its working life ...the shorter its life span. It is all a matter of compromises in engineering.

It's 'wear and tear' and it may just happen faster in plasma panels than it does in CRT's.

Now as to whether Panasonic is actually engineering this outcome artificially before its time is debatable but it does not make good business sense to be found doing this if this should be the case.

C.M

Typo

Edited by Tweet

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Its normal for phosphor based displays to loose peak light output over time as the phosphor ages, but its definitely NOT normal for black level to increase, in fact one would expect black level to drop over time.

Plasma pixels have an idle state where the pixels are kept just on, this is why they cannot produce true black. As the phosphor ages it produces less light for a given input and since the drive at idle normally remains the same over time black level should improve.

Why Panasonic feel the need to increase idle drive over time remains a mystery.

Edited by Owen

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Why Panasonic feel the need to increase idle drive over time remains a mystery.

seemingly the intention was good but the execution was bad. Panasonic US have acknowledged the fault and are looking at resolving it via a firmware update.

at least we know the full reset returns the display to normal until the real fix is delivered.

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seemingly the intention was good but the execution was bad. Panasonic US have acknowledged the fault and are looking at resolving it via a firmware update.

at least we know the full reset returns the display to normal until the real fix is delivered.

So what was the purpose of the firmware release on the USA Panasonic dated 26/1/10? Was this not the fix for the problem being discussed here?

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seemingly the intention was good but the execution was bad. Panasonic US have acknowledged the fault and are looking at resolving it via a firmware update.

at least we know the full reset returns the display to normal until the real fix is delivered.

The intention good or bad doesn't change the fact that executing a change to a tv's operating performance at 1000 hrs without informing the customer that it will happen is deceptive marketing and i'm sure the accc is watching this thread with interest.

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The intention good or bad doesn't change the fact that executing a change to a tv's operating performance at 1000 hrs without informing the customer that it will happen is deceptive marketing and i'm sure the accc is watching this thread with interest.

it was a mistake. Panasonic have admitted the problem. products are rarely perfect, manufacturers make imperfect products all the time. you will also note that nobody ever says their products are perfect and will never need updates, repairs, whatever. it is how they handle fixing the mistake that is important.

are you going to break down their doors because their product isn't perfect, with no recourse to actually fix the problem? are you going to take them to court over it? if they refused to acknowledge the issue and/or fix it, then that is a different matter, but that certainly doesn't seem to be the case here.

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doesn't change the fact that executing a change to a tv's operating performance at 1000 hrs without informing the customer that it will happen is deceptive marketing and i'm sure the accc is watching this thread with interest.
boulderdash. TV sets for 50 years have circuitry in them to alter the set performance over time to accommodate degrade in various things. It is just whatever Panasonic has done in software here is way too aggressive, and obviously not well tested.

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The intention good or bad doesn't change the fact that executing a change to a tv's operating performance at 1000 hrs without informing the customer that it will happen is deceptive marketing and i'm sure the accc is watching this thread with interest.

ACCC has never heard of DTV and would not be interested. They chase bigger fish.

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it was a mistake. Panasonic have admitted the problem. products are rarely perfect, manufacturers make imperfect products all the time. you will also note that nobody ever says their products are perfect and will never need updates, repairs, whatever. it is how they handle fixing the mistake that is important.

are you going to break down their doors because their product isn't perfect, with no recourse to actually fix the problem? are you going to take them to court over it? if they refused to acknowledge the issue and/or fix it, then that is a different matter, but that certainly doesn't seem to be the case here.

Well if i just bought a tv because i was impressed with it's black levels and it changed after 4 months because some genious at Pana thought it was a good idea i would not only expect that genious to fix my tv that still had 8 months factory warranty on it but i would like a satisfactory explination as to why?

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I have rang Panasonic Oz on 2 occasions, one as a prospective customer.....got told "it's all crap" after the customer service bloke came back from consulting a tech:)

Second time as a concerned owner i got old "don't know anything about it".

So before anyone thinks Panasonic Australia (where our TVs live) has admitted anything at all they should ring up and confirm, as it is a complete cover up atm.

Here is a link to the ACCC, yes they would be very interested as they are the only buffer consumers have against company's that ride rough shot over people who have already paid their them money.

http://www.accc.gov.au/content/index.phtml/itemId/815215

Edited by snorri

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Is this actually a confirmed problem in Australia? Members here, how many actually have noticed this problem when it's over 1000hrs?

IIRC theres at least one member with this problem, take a pic, then reset the TV, take the pic again (using the same settings, so u prob have to do this at night with ligts off).. or some light meter readings..

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I would be happy to

swap my 50G10 for a NEW 2010 equivalent model

my panel is only just over 2 months old

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I would be happy to

swap my 50G10 for a NEW 2010 equivalent model

my panel is only just over 2 months old

Well hopefully you can come up with something... 2 more months to go (safe to do this since it seems this can be reset anyway)...

Needs more data, need actual numbers, and less speculation :ninja:...

Good luck, and hope all is well... I'd butt myself out now, and leave u guys at it to come up with something concrete to give to Panasonic.. :P

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I am sure it was an honest mistake by Pana engineers. Nobody could expect their products to be perfect either, but this crap that their Customer Service reps are saying that its not true or they dont know anything about it is not good enough. I would just expect Pana Aus to admit the problem like in the US and promise a firmware update that will fix it. If however they are not able to remedy this permanently (with a firware update) because of a design flaw, that would be a very different thing and I would demand a refund. But I am hopeful that a firware update will just eliminate the increase voltage.

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I am sure it was an honest mistake by Pana engineers. Nobody could expect their products to be perfect either, but this crap that their Customer Service reps are saying that its not true or they dont know anything about it is not good enough. I would just expect Pana Aus to admit the problem like in the US and promise a firmware update that will fix it. If however they are not able to remedy this permanently (with a firware update) because of a design flaw, that would be a very different thing and I would demand a refund. But I am hopeful that a firware update will just eliminate the increase voltage.

Please provide a link to Panasonic in the US where they acknowledged this "problem" as I cannot find anything and I do not want any hearsay by people who say they have contacted Panasonic and got confirmation, first line support staff are notorious for not knowing things other than what is on their FAQs, some try to be be "nice" and volunteer stuff just to get you off the line.

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Please provide a link to Panasonic in the US where they acknowledged this "problem" as I cannot find anything and I do not want any hearsay by people who say they have contacted Panasonic and got confirmation, first line support staff are notorious for not knowing things other than what is on their FAQs, some try to be be "nice" and volunteer stuff just to get you off the line.

You can have a read through the AVSforum here; http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1167339

Quite a few owners who have conatcted Panasonic (US) say that the Customer Service Reps say "we are aware of the issue & it's currently being investigated".

Cheers,

Andys.

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Please provide a link to Panasonic in the US where they acknowledged this "problem" as I cannot find anything and I do not want any hearsay by people who say they have contacted Panasonic and got confirmation, first line support staff are notorious for not knowing things other than what is on their FAQs, some try to be be "nice" and volunteer stuff just to get you off the line.

I thibk you will struggle to get the confirmation you require short of getting someone to record a conversation.

Whilst I am inclined to agree that there are likely to be many questionable reports, and a few jumping on for the ride, I nonetheless rely on the core enthusiaists that exist in such forums to pursue issues such as these. If it were not for such people I certainly wouldnt be able to get anywhere if my set were to disply such problems, as I do not posses screen calibration equipment to support such findings. Certainly my own dealings with Panasonic australia support couldnt be less fruitful if I rang them with a question about appendectomies. :huh:

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Quite a few owners who have conatcted Panasonic (US) say that the Customer Service Reps say "we are aware of the issue & it's currently being investigated".
I thibk you will struggle to get the confirmation you require short of getting someone to record a conversation.

So I assume your TV already exhibit this problem? Do you have some data/pics? (No point referring to US sites, links, comments, as it's Panasonic US, not Panasonic AU).

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So I assume your TV already exhibit this problem? Do you have some data/pics? (No point referring to US sites, links, comments, as it's Panasonic US, not Panasonic AU).

Unfortunately (or I suppose, fortunately) you assume incorrectly - not that I believe I implied that I did . That is to say that I do not have 1000 hours on my set as yet, and this is when the problem supposeddly manifests.

I am, in general, happy with black levels on our set. Stories like these do make me scrutinize things and become paranoid that in certain situations I am not as happy with the blacks as I could be, but this could certainly be 100% paranoia. For example, in a pitch black room with some scenes of between 50 and 80% black on the Planet Earth Blu ray, the Blacks look quite "bright" and luminecent, but given the darkness of the room, Im fairly sure that the slight glow of the blacks is amplified because of my dilated pupils. In more blalanced scenes the black accents appear "pitch".

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Unfortunately (or I suppose, fortunately) you assume incorrectly - not that I believe I implied that I did . That is to say that I do not have 1000 hours on my set as yet, and this is when the problem supposeddly manifests.

Well, wait till something manifests first I guess :ninja:.. No point calling Panasonic to confirm otherwise... Not trying to stir the pot or something, as I have no vested interests. However, US sets for all we know may be entirely different (use different firmware, different properties to apply to rules to different countries, etc)..

Not saying this problem don't exist, but IMO the best solution to approach this is to confirm 100% that local sets have this problem, find out the number of people involved and then get to Panasonic. A more systematic apporach I guess...

I believe at least a member here have this problem? To confirm take a light reading (in a totally dark room), or maybe some pictures from a DSLR (prob use no metering?)... Once there is something concrete, follow it up with Panasonic. That's the worse case scenario..

Best case scenerio is of coz the problem is US only.

Makes one think twice about going after name brands huh? :ninja::P

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