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snorri

Panasonic Plasma Time Bombs?

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siphoning? (as in anti-siphoning on TV)

Thanks mate. Will catch up with you next week. :)

Edited by CC Rider

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The “floating black” issue only affects some models and is something that should be controllable by the user; however the rising black issue is not necessarily the same and may be a design limitation of Panasonics panels. They may be able to limit the black level rise but not necessarily eliminated as reliability may suffer.

Whatever the situation the change in panel drive is there for a good reason, like it or not.

I read on the UK AVforum review that you can turn this off in Picture menu if you use the professional 1 mode I think it is under the guise of C.A.T.S. Can someone with a vt20 please confirm this is the case with our sets as well.

Edited by CC Rider

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I read on the UK AVforum review that you can turn this off in Picture menu if you use the professional 1 mode I think it is under the guise of C.A.T.S. Can someone with a vt20 please confirm this is the case with our sets as well.

C.A.T.S. and several other settings are different or not available on the VT20a. They are configured differently.

I've been progressively reading through this thread over the past week or so since purchasing my P58VT20a. I note that the majority of posts on the whole blacks issue, particularly critical ones are written by non Pana or VT owners. As for comparisons with Kuros...

Well, I have proudly owned a Kuro for the past 2 years and loved it. However, my VT20 is clearly a superior picture (although I think the Kuro is a much nicer looking cabinet).

Now, I've only had my set for 2 weeks and not been home every night to watch it... but I am yet to see anything that alarms me, like flicker and so on... I'll gladly report back on the blacks should I ever have to. Standby in 6 months or so. Meanwhile, I am enjoying a truly superb TV, at a very good value price. Hang it, I thought $3,500 for a 58" 3D TV with a free BD and extra glasses and cable thrown in was pretty darn good value. A bit like my Landcruiser. Doesn't have the prestige name like BMW or MB but I'd take any of those offerings on any time on and off-road...

Oh, and Pioneer would have been crazy to enter the cheap tellie market. All they would have done is destroy their high end market. What Panasonic should do is release a new brand with the new, improved Kuro standards to drive the high end market, just like Toyota did with Lexus. Any brand that line extends to try to appeal to all market sectors is doomed to fail. Category leadership is the key. No ONE brand can stand for everything. Marketing 101. Incidentally, they've done it before... Once their brand was National, then they released Panasonic at a slightly higher price point if I recall. Eventually, National died as a brand.

As for now, I think I've got something close to Kuro quality at Pana pricing, "and loving it"..................... as 86 would say! :wub: :wub:

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C.A.T.S. and several other settings are different or not available on the VT20a. They are configured differently.

I've been progressively reading through this thread over the past week or so since purchasing my P58VT20a. I note that the majority of posts on the whole blacks issue, particularly critical ones are written by non Pana or VT owners. As for comparisons with Kuros...

Well, I have proudly owned a Kuro for the past 2 years and loved it. However, my VT20 is clearly a superior picture (although I think the Kuro is a much nicer looking cabinet).

As for now, I think I've got something close to Kuro quality at Pana pricing, "and loving it"..................... as 86 would say! :wub: :wub:

I used to own the highly acclaimed lx509 but sold it because it was too small and the 60" was not the size I could justify for the price they were selling for. 60" looks too small now.

I also thought there was over expectation from my part because despite good black levels the TV was not perfect and suffered from motion problems processing 24p.

Also I loathe watching a small set in complete darkness and my other half wouldn't have a bar of it.

I must say that "some" :) Pio owners who paid princely sums for their sets can be protective if anything out there challenges their beloved Kuro's.

our 2010 sets may not have surpassed the kuro re black levels but they are streets ahead interms of features that are moving with technological demands of users.

Enjoy your new set. Are the poms whining about something that isn't there? Also it was interesting to read tha D-Nice a fully accredited calibrator pointed out that the

North American Pana's are not the same as the European (I include Oceania in this as well) as far as picture processing is concerned. The NA models displayed none

of the artefacts that the European models did with cadence detection. So go figure :o discussion can be found here http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread....863&page=13

Edited by CC Rider

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My Pana G10 looked fantastic in the first few months and the black levels were truly outstanding, but when the clock hit the magical count, it was like my Pana had been swapped for an LCD overnight and no more inky blacks.

Well we have all heard about the floating black problem plaguing the latest generation Panas. Are there any G13 Pana owners who have seen an increase in there grey's (blacks) yet? As Pana said, they will also increase the blacks over time but just more gradually.

Edited by Bertzz

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My Pana G10 looked fantastic in the first few months and the black levels were truly outstanding, but when the clock hit the magical count, it was like my Pana had been swapped for an LCD overnight and no more inky blacks.

Well we have all heard about the floating black problem plaguing the latest generation Panas. Are there any G13 Pana owners who have seen an increase in there grey's (blacks) yet? As Pana said, they will also increase the blacks over time but just more gradually.

Its actually rising blacks. Floating blacks is different.

And yes its been reported by cnet on their website. The blacks do rise on the current Panasonic plasma.

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Quote from CNET

We've been testing two 2010 models, the P50VT25 (VT20 locally) and P50G20, since we received the review samples from Panasonic earlier this year. And until now we haven't measured any increase in the brightness of "black" (known as MLL, or Minimum Luminance Level).

However, after being run for what amounts to a small fraction of their expected lifespans, each TV has shown an MLL increase. "Black" on the VT25 went from 0.004 to 0.007 footlamberts (ftl) after 1543 total hours (the equivalent of 297 days at the average daily rate of 5.2 hours), while the G20 increased from 0.007 - 0.012ftl after 2411 total hours (464 days).

This behaviour was expected and explained by Panasonic as a normal part of its plasma TVs' operation when we first documented it with 2009 models. The company previously said in a statement that its 2010 plasmas would incorporate a "more gradual change in black levels over time" than the 2009 models.

He characterised that adjustment as quite difficult to perceive and results in a change of, at most, 15 to 20 per cent higher MLL — which, according to our maths, would put the G20 at 0.014ftl after the process is complete. He stressed that the numbers are approximate, however, and went on to say that MLL may even improve slightly as the panel stabilises.

Schindler didn't specify the exact stabilisation point, but per his estimate we peg it at a maximum of 4500 hours, which works out to 2.37 years. That time span jibes with what we were told by Panasonic vice president Bob Perry in February: "...it would be safe to assume that around three years, more or less, is a reasonable approximation."

<snip>

Despite the near doubling of MLL on the VT25 and G20 we've measured so far, both still exhibit some of the best overall black-level performance available today. In order of "blackest" initial black, the other 2010 plasmas in our Labs at press time included the Samsung PS50C7000 (0.017 MLL), Samsung PN50C8000 (0.019) and LG PX950 (0.030). All these numbers are higher (worse) than our estimated "final" MLL of either Panasonic panel.

Edited by diesel

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There ya go, and some people did not want to believe 2010 models where affected, they weren’t listening as even Panasonic said they where. AU models are not exempt either as its part of the design not a fault.

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Great link diesel.Cheers!

Yeah thanks for the link diesel.

Now all Panasonic need to do is write some software changes into a firmware release for the G10 so that it too has a more gradual MLL rise like the 2010 models, and of course restore the blacks to pre-rise levels first before reapplying the gradual rise algorithm!

Another firmware update they should do is allow avi, mkv etc via usb drives. This would show a real commitment to ensuring their customer get full value from their products.

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Now all Panasonic need to do is write some software changes into a firmware release for the G10 so that it too has a more gradual MLL rise like the 2010 models, and of course restore the blacks to pre-rise levels first before reapplying the gradual rise algorithm!
Yes that has often been suggested. However I have no seen no discussion as to whether the G10 MLL increment size can be changed by updatable firmware, rather than being hard wired.

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Yes that has often been suggested. However I have no seen no discussion as to whether the G10 MLL increment size can be changed by updatable firmware, rather than being hard wired.

I have a very high degree of confidence that this is firmware controlled.

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Another firmware update they should do is allow avi, mkv etc via usb drives. This would show a real commitment to ensuring their customer get full value from their products.

Apologies for my ignorance but don't the current crop of V series Pana's do that? The Sammy's 7000 series allow AVI and MKV files to be played via usb.

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I have a very high degree of confidence that this is firmware controlled.

I have a high degree of confidence that the drive increase over time is required for reliable panel operation and will never be removed for that reason, even if it is possible to do via a firmware update.

Why is it that people think Panasonics engineers are stupid?

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Why is it that people think Panasonics engineers are stupid?

Beats me.

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Apologies for my ignorance but don't the current crop of V series Pana's do that? The Sammy's 7000 series allow AVI and MKV files to be played via usb.

The V20A doesn't unless my firmware is out of date (only bought the set last weekend), not sure on the VT's.

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I have a high degree of confidence that the drive increase over time is required for reliable panel operation and will never be removed for that reason, even if it is possible to do via a firmware update.

Why is it that people think Panasonics engineers are stupid?

The drive voltage increse in with the PIO Kuro's as well. However according to their ex design engineer it has been designed so that the increase has no percievable increase in MLL.

I think enough has been said on this topic.

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The V20A doesn't unless my firmware is out of date (only bought the set last weekend), not sure on the VT's.

OK thanks. It leaves me somewhat surprised :blink:

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The drive voltage increse in with the PIO Kuro's as well. However according to their ex design engineer it has been designed so that the increase has no percievable increase in MLL.

I think enough has been said on this topic.

The operating requirements of Pioneer's panels are completely different. If anyone here thinks they know the operating requirements of Panasonic's PDP panels better then the currently employed engineers they should apply for a job.

Edited by Owen

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.AVI files are just a container, they can contain just about any video and audio format and the Samsung's definitely don't play all of them. Aspect ratio handling is not reliable either.

My Samsung does not play DV video (MJPEG) from a typical video camera in an .AVI container and does not handle aspect ratio properly for 1440x1080 MPEG2 video from a HDV video camera either.

I was able to “hack” the firmware with a SamyGo patch to fix the aspect ratio problem but DV files done play.

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Why is it that people think Panasonics engineers are stupid?

Owen, I guess my only question about all this rising blacks issue is that why have it at all. If .02ftl is the most optimal level to gain a compromise between both good blacks and panel life, why not just set it an forget it. Why must they change it, or is it more a case that MLL has always risen from new to a few years old and just the sudden change that occurred in the 2009 Panasonic model brought this to everyones attention? Or is it that MLL is so low these days that any increase seems big when you are started from such a low base.

I know these aren't superior black levels compared to Kuros and maybe some older technologies, but it's about all we have on offer these days...until OLED or SED or some other vapourware promises the next big thing.

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Each manufacturer has its own PDP designs with their individual compromises and operating requirements, the Panasonic PDP's have different operating requirements to other manufacturers panels and that's all there is to to it.

Reliable panel operation without pixel misfire is MUCH more important than black level.

The Panasonic engineers are not doing anything they don't consider necessary.

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Owen, I guess my only question about all this rising blacks issue is that why have it at all. If .02ftl is the most optimal level to gain a compromise between both good blacks and panel life, why not just set it an forget it. Why must they change it, or is it more a case that MLL has always risen from new to a few years old and just the sudden change that occurred in the 2009 Panasonic model brought this to everyones attention? Or is it that MLL is so low these days that any increase seems big when you are started from such a low base.

I know these aren't superior black levels compared to Kuros and maybe some older technologies, but it's about all we have on offer these days...until OLED or SED or some other vapourware promises the next big thing.

Below is an excerpt on this very topic from AVS that may shed some more light

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread....04#post19251404

Quote:

Originally Posted by hydrogin View Post

Is requiring more initialization voltage over time something that most plasma panels are going to be faced with independent of the mfgr?

Unknown but I would speculate that "most" is correct because most mfgr use similar cell and driving technology to Panasonic AFAIK. Pioneer was unique in that they used spacial discharge to initialize and to create the first subfield. This method is far less likely to require voltage adjustments IMO.

Quote:

Originally Posted by hydrogin View Post

If so, why does it seem that Panasonic is the only mfgr faced with rising blacks? Is there something unique about their NeoPDP panels? Are they using a unique technique for getting around the problem? Or are they perhaps pushing the limits of the technology harder than other mfgrs thus exposing themselves to a problem others may not be facing? Just curious.

After interpreting the technical info on this I would speculate that Panasonic has attempted to take advantage of the ramp up in required initialization voltage by flirting with panel stability. I'll explain below.

Let us define the 'NORMAL BLACK LEVEL' as the black level produced through stable operation after all materials within the cell have been normalized (usually after 1000 hours)

Conventional Plasma : Most conventional plasma displays probably set the voltage high enough from the beginning to not require any significant adjustments over time. This ensures stable operation throughout the operational life of the panel. However, it has the drawback of creating an initially high black level that becomes darker over the first 1000 hours until it reaches the NORMAL black level.

Panasonic Plasma : In Panasonic's case they have decided to eliminate this initial high black level by using a voltage ramp sequence. In fact they have found that the panel can actually support a significantly lower black level than the NORMAL black level during this initial 1000 hours. However, after a few hundred hours the materials start to change and the panel can no longer stably generate discharge and thus the voltage is increased sequentially back up. After 1000 hours the only black level that can be generated stably is the NORMAL BLACK LEVEL.

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So is the 'normal' black level (after it has finished rising) on Panasonic Plasma's any higher than other manufacturers 'normal' black level?

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All of these excuses that Owen is making for Panasonic are a crock. If they can more gradually increase the MLL rise in the 2010 panels then they can do the same for the 2009 panels and make a firmware update available to do this. The misfiring story will apply equally to 2009 and 2010 models!

As to the question do we think Panasonic engineers are stupid? The quick response to this is, yes they and their management are stupid. The way they have handled this whole issue proves that beyond any doubt. They should have just come out in the first week or two and told the truth, but instead, they lied and mislead and only provided the minimum of information as they were forced to. They are a bunch of deceiving and dishonest thieves, who misrepresented the capabilities of their products by delivering something that performs better than their competitors for a short period of its expected life and then performs about the same after the rise (true for 2009 G10). This better black level performance is a very big reason that many paid more for a Panasonic. To find out a few months down the track that they mislead the public about the black level performance is in my mind criminal. This also kind of answers the other question about why start so low and increase as opposed to just picking a stable value and leaving it there from the start. The later would make their products perform too closely to the others and therefore they could not claim to have blacker blacks. The way they have done it they can, even though I think it is the height of deception.

Does anyone know that status of the US class action?

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