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Panasonic Plasma Time Bombs?

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I should add that was the 50hz reading. For 60hz I measured 0.009ftL.

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Obviously we don't use 60Hz in Oz so why quote 0.009ftl?

To keep things in perspective, a G9 Pioneer Kuro is about 10 times darker, 0.009ftl is worse than the 2007 G8 Kuro.

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Obviously we don't use 60Hz in Oz so why quote 0.009ftl?

I suppose game consoles and and blu-ray still use 60hz. But yeah, 0.014 is what most of us would be getting here.

If I wanted to criticise Panny in a similar fashion, I'd ask why all the review sites quote their pre-floated black level when the true black level is roughly double that figure.

To keep things in perspective, a G9 Pioneer Kuro is about 10 times darker, 0.009ftl is worse than the 2007 G8 Kuro.

Yeah, I'm not suggesting .009 is is spectacular or anything, but it's quite good for a dimly lit environment at night. 0.014 is creeping into medicore territory though. I guess at the end of the day the VT will end up at ~0.010 (according to Cnet). If this level floats up to around 0.020 it's going to be pretty damn noticeable. I would say, at this point, Panny no longer wears the crown for having best black level.

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Obviously we don't use 60Hz in Oz so why quote 0.009ftl?

Actually we can use it and it is relevant if you turn cinema smooth off when watching blu ray. I'm watching King Kong with cs off and to be honest 3:2 pulldown doesn't look too bad.

Edited by CC Rider

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Actually we can use it and it is relevant if you turn cinema smooth off when watching blu ray. And to be honest 3:2 pulldown doesn't look too bad.

+1, at least 30% of what I watch is at 60Hz. :ninja:

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The “floating blacks” on Panasonic's are much like high end LCD's, on bright scenes the black level rises (gives more shadow detail) and on dark scenes it falls, that's not such a a bad think as when you want dark blacks they are dark and when you don't need them to be they are not.

Most CRT TV's had unintentional dynamic black levels as well except it was the other way around, when you needed dark blacks like in dark scenes black level increased, and when you did not need or want darks black like in bright scenes black level went down crushing shadow detail, not good.

Its yet to be seen if the VT20 or VT25 will ever get up to 0.009ftl and apparently on the VT25 you can disable “dynamic contrast” which cures the floating blacks.

Dynamic (floating) blacks are another Panasonic “feature”, why they did not allow the user to disable it on the VT20 is a mystery.

Edited by Owen

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The “floating blacks” on Panasonic's are much like high end LCD's, on bright scenes the black level rises (gives more shadow detail) and on dark scenes it falls, that's not such a a bad think as when you want dark blacks they are dark and when you don't need them to be they are not.

Most CRT TV's had unintentional dynamic black levels as well except it was the other way around, when you needed dark blacks like in dark scenes black level increased, and when you did not need or want darks black like in bright scenes black level went down crushing shadow detail, not good.

Its yet to be seen if the VT20 or VT25 will ever get up to 0.009ftl and apparently on the VT25 you can disable “dynamic contrast” which cures the floating blacks.

Dynamic (floating) blacks are another Panasonic “feature”, why they did not allow the user to disable it on the VT20 is a mystery.

Thanks for explaining that. However we will not get the VT25 in OZ so Aussie's are stuck with Dynamic contrast issue.

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The “floating blacks” on Panasonic's are much like high end LCD's, on bright scenes the black level rises (gives more shadow detail) and on dark scenes it falls, that's not such a a bad think as when you want dark blacks they are dark and when you don't need them to be they are not.

The problem is the threshold they've set is too low. On the V20 I had, 16% APL was enough to trigger the MLL increase. Watching movies on it, I found plenty of dark "low APL" scenes where the MLL kept switching back and forth between low and high. It really is a dodgy feature imo, definitely not a good thing.

Its yet to be seen if the VT20 or VT25 will ever get up to 0.009ftl and apparently on the VT25 you can disable “dynamic contrast” which cures the floating blacks.

That's the first I've ever heard of anyone being able to disable floating blacks on a 2010 model. I sincerely hope it's true. There was some chatter on avforums about some new UK G20 firmware reducing the visibility of floating blacks...

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Is there any chance that Pana will give us a display in the near future that remove these features that i for one don't want?Pioneer seemed to be much more focused on customer satisfaction than Pana? :wacko:

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The problem is the threshold they've set is too low. On the V20 I had, 16% APL was enough to trigger the MLL increase. Watching movies on it, I found plenty of dark "low APL" scenes where the MLL kept switching back and forth between low and high. It really is a dodgy feature imo, definitely not a good thing.

Dynamic lighting on an LCD certainly improves blacks in dark scenes and if well implemented is not very obvious or objectionable. However on a Plasma you can only increase black level not reduce it, either Panasonic wanted to boost shadow detail on non dark scenes or more likely they are striving for more light output to make up for the losses of 3D glasses. Since only the 3D models have this “feature” (or so I believe) the latter is the most likely.

Its a shame Panasonic did such a lousy job integrating their dynamic system and for 2D it was never needed, however it is likely that this “feature” can be controlled or disabled in the service menu as it is on many TV's with dynamic systems. Hopefully someone will work out how.

Panasonic are obviously not focusing their products at videophiles but rather at the average punter who is not going to be fussed over such issues. They are not alone in not providing a user menu setting to control dynamic behaviour, my Sammy LCD requires service menu access to disable dynamic back lighting but I leave it on as it really does help blacks on the LCD.

Rumour is that the VT line will be short lived and replaced early, wouldn't hold my breath though.

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Panasonic are obviously not focusing their products at videophiles but rather at the average punter who is not going to be fussed over such issues.

Pioneer did that and the rest is history. I wish manufacturers do include some of the Pioneer like tech in their plasma design but the market dictates their behaviour and

those including me waiting for Panasonic to make a 3d :ninja: plus Kuro Killer is never going to happen.

I truly believe if Samsung purchased the Pio Tech the 2010 or 2011 plasma series would have a lot of it in them. Samsung pushed the Giant Sony to the side to become LCD King.

Samsung are corporately more aggressive than Pana on all fronts.

I also believe Pana purchased the Tech because they were aware of the ramifications if Sammy got first dip.

Pana is an arrogant dinosaur instilled with the Japanese trait "We will never admit mistakes because they are features".

Edited by CC Rider

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Pana is an arrogant dinosaur instilled with the Japanese trait "We will never admit mistakes because they are features".

You are right on the money there my friend! Couldn't have said it better myself. They have the potential and the patents to put together one hell of a stunning TV, but it just hasn't happened and I really don't understand why. To think that a 2007 Pioneer is yet to be rivalled for overall picture quality and black level some 3 years on is just staggering. Just use the LX-509/609 blueprints Panny!!! How hard can it be?

Andys.

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If it was cheap to do they probably would, however if there is significant cost involved I cant see it happening as the vast majority of consumers just wont pay any more for what they perceive as no improvement in performance. Videophile type consumers represent such a small segment of the market that they are not worth pandering to, hence the death of the Kuro.

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You are right on the money there my friend! Couldn't have said it better myself. They have the potential and the patents to put together one hell of a stunning TV, but it just hasn't happened and I really don't understand why. To think that a 2007 Pioneer is yet to be rivalled for overall picture quality and black level some 3 years on is just staggering. Just use the LX-509/609 blueprints Panny!!! How hard can it be?

Andys.

Basic market fundamentals are at play here...

2007 Pioneer plasma/screen size = mega bucks; when you make a Rolls Royce you don't expect to sell many! Designing & manufacturing exquisite products comes at a price! That’s why Pioneer abandoned the plasma market; it was sending them broke.

Offering a 2010 plasma with 2007 picture performance / screen size / price is a recipe for disaster; 2010 consumers would squeal it’s overpriced and for that price “I can buy two plasma’s if I choose another brand.” It makes NO commercial sense following in Pioneer’s footsteps!

TV is now a mass merchant commodity item where you pay very little and still get a very good product. If today’s TV’s were at 2007 prices, the market would be in a very sorry state...

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Basic market fundamentals are at play here...

2007 Pioneer plasma/screen size = mega bucks; when you make a Rolls Royce you don't expect to sell many! Designing & manufacturing exquisite products comes at a price! That’s why Pioneer abandoned the plasma market; it was sending them broke.

Offering a 2010 plasma with 2007 picture performance / screen size / price is a recipe for disaster; 2010 consumers would squeal it’s overpriced and for that price “I can buy two plasma’s if I choose another brand.” It makes NO commercial sense following in Pioneer’s footsteps!

TV is now a mass merchant commodity item where you pay very little and still get a very good product. If today’s TV’s were at 2007 prices, the market would be in a very sorry state...

Agreed :)

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If it was cheap to do they probably would, however if there is significant cost involved I cant see it happening as the vast majority of consumers just wont pay any more for what they perceive as no improvement in performance. Videophile type consumers represent such a small segment of the market that they are not worth pandering to, hence the death of the Kuro.

It doesn't cost Pana any money at all to produce a display without floating blacks or rising blacks.It just requires a new algorithm applied doesn't it?I would buy a 65 inch Pana tomorrow once these issues are fixed.It is the buyer who pays the money and it should be the buyers discretion to be able to turn these FEATURES off.No one expects high end equipment for bargain basement prices but what we do expect is for these pricks in japan to get off there high horse and listen to the customer.

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Videophile type consumers represent such a small segment of the market that they are not worth pandering to, hence the death of the Kuro.

That says it as it is ...succinctly and straight to the point.

I have made similar statements to our "not as thick as some" but very thick typical "I'm a Yank and know it all" AVS forum members in the US who still ponder why the Kuro died.

Edited by CC Rider

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It doesn't cost Pana any money at all to produce a display without ... rising blacks.It just requires a new algorithm applied doesn't it?
Ekkie, do you really think Panasonic would be adjusting drive levels as a function of panel ageing for no reason?

The nature of the technology requires an adjustment to ensure continued reliablility of pixel firing as the plasma panel ages.

I think this has been mentioned every few pages in this long thread.

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Ekkie, do you really think Panasonic would be adjusting drive levels as a function of panel ageing for no reason?

The nature of the technology requires an adjustment to ensure continued reliablility of pixel firing as the plasma panel ages.

I think this has been mentioned every few pages in this long thread.

Every man,woman and dog knows that Pana's adjustments are far to aggresive and not required on 6 month old panels.Now we are blessed with 3D panels the obssesion to drive up brightness seems to be the latest drug in the tv industry.

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Every man,woman and dog knows that Pana's adjustments are far to aggresive and not required on 6 month old panels.Now we are blessed with 3D panels the obssesion to drive up brightness seems to be the latest drug in the tv industry.

You exaggerate. Only a small percentage of the public would be aware of the issue of rising black levels in Panasonic panels, let alone whether they are "too agressive". But thorough readers of this lengthy thread ought to be aware.

In the link (post #870), the cnet report suggests Panasonic acknowledge that the progressive adjustments to the Minimum Light Level in the 2009 sets were over aggressive (i.e. too zealous in guarding against picture display failure) but go on to indicate that an adjustment is still required. You will see the words:

"Yes, it's more gradual this year," Schindler said, "and also doesn't go as far in terms of total span. Our engineers were able to become less aggressive with the voltage increase in 2010 and maintain the same reliability over time, which is their main objective."

Panasonic have indicated in the past that the adjustment is by design. You might possibly be able to delay it by 6 months depending on hours of use of the panel. For a panel used intensively, you could not delay an adjustment by 6 months.

I note that a small % of the public have an intense interest in owning a set with the lowest possible MLL. And I guess most people like to think that the set they are buying is "better" than a competitor's set. It is human nature.

Panasonic have responded with design parameters that wring the lowest possible MLL out of the particular panel. Because they are operating the panel at the edge of its capabilities, Panasonic need to make adjustments to drive levels to ensure the pixels will continue to fire reliably as the panel ages.

I'm not sure why you mention 3D and high brightness levels. Plasma sets need to compete with LCD sets in all areas related to brightness: black levels, maximum brightness, and native and dynamic contrast. It is not sufficient that plasma panels are currently much cheaper in the marketplace than LCDs. They must attempt to provide competitive maximum brightness levels to LCDs.

Perhaps you are suggesting that ageing effects are less if a plasma panel is operated at lower brightness levels. It would be hard to predict what brightness levels a customer would use over the life of the set.

Perhaps Panasonic could offer a manual override for customers wanting to test whether their panel can operate reliably at a lower than usual MLL. The customer would then need to monitor the situation as the months went on, and make small precise manual adjustments from time to time, instead of the panel making broader "typical" adjustments automatically.

Edited by MLXXX

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Basic market fundamentals are at play here...

2007 Pioneer plasma/screen size = mega bucks; when you make a Rolls Royce you don't expect to sell many! Designing & manufacturing exquisite products comes at a price! That’s why Pioneer abandoned the plasma market; it was sending them broke.

Offering a 2010 plasma with 2007 picture performance / screen size / price is a recipe for disaster; 2010 consumers would squeal it’s overpriced and for that price “I can buy two plasma’s if I choose another brand.” It makes NO commercial sense following in Pioneer’s footsteps!

TV is now a mass merchant commodity item where you pay very little and still get a very good product. If today’s TV’s were at 2007 prices, the market would be in a very sorry state...

On face value I would agree with your coments. However, Pioneer ran into trouble because they only offered a high-end panel, and nothing else. There was no mid-range or low range panel in their tv business. In today's economy that's a recipe for disaster, which is just how it turned out for them. Panasonic on the other hand have a huge range of panels on offer. There's nothing to stop them from offering a high-end Kuro type panel, even as a limited production run each year. Yes, I would expect to pay a premium for such a panel, as I did when I bought my Kuro. While consumers wanting a high-end panel is a relatively small market, at least then they would have every corner of market covered. It's almost as if Panasonic bought the Kuro patents just so no-one else could. To date they've made very little use of them, if any at all.

Let's hope they lift their game next year, as this year was nothing short of disappointing with no significant steps forward (putting 3D aside) over last years models.

Andys.

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Perhaps Panasonic could offer a manual override for customers wanting to test whether their panel can operate reliably at a lower than usual MLL. The customer would then need to monitor the situation as the months went on, and make small precise manual adjustments from time to time, instead of the panel making broader "typical" adjustments automatically.

Like you said only a miniscule portion of the market are aware so why would they bother to introduce a feature which could be interpretted as a failing. My personal wish is that it would be great to have this feature.

Edited by CC Rider

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It's almost as if Panasonic bought the Kuro patents just so no-one else could. To date they've made very little use of them, if any at all.

Andys.

I have suspected this for a while. There is a captive reference that encapulates this type of market strategy but it escapes me.

Edited by CC Rider

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I have suspected this for a while. There is a captive reference that encapulates this type of market strategy but it escapes me.

siphoning? (as in anti-siphoning on TV)

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It doesn't cost Pana any money at all to produce a display without floating blacks or rising blacks.It just requires a new algorithm applied doesn't it?I would buy a 65 inch Pana tomorrow once these issues are fixed.It is the buyer who pays the money and it should be the buyers discretion to be able to turn these FEATURES off.No one expects high end equipment for bargain basement prices but what we do expect is for these pricks in japan to get off there high horse and listen to the customer.

The “floating black” issue only affects some models and is something that should be controllable by the user; however the rising black issue is not necessarily the same and may be a design limitation of Panasonics panels. They may be able to limit the black level rise but not necessarily eliminated as reliability may suffer.

Whatever the situation the change in panel drive is there for a good reason, like it or not.

Getting Kuro black levels is another issue entirely, how much it costs is anyone’s guess but if it was cheap and easy I cant imagine it would not be done to help the fight against Samsung.

One thing is sure, if Panasonic don’t get their collective fingers out they wont be in the Plasma business for long, Samsung will do to them what it did to Sony and everyone else with LCD.

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