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snorri

Panasonic Plasma Time Bombs?

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If you want an exchange I would be asking for a 2010 model as the info I've got is that the black level problem has been fixed.

Want to share that info mate, I have seen nothing to suggest such a thing.

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If you want an exchange I would be asking for a 2010 model as the info I've got is that the black level problem has been fixed.

Want to share that info mate, I have seen nothing to suggest thats the case.

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Want to share that info mate, I have seen nothing to suggest thats the case.

Three reasons:

1. Panasonic have supposedly refined the algorithm for incrementing intialisation voltage in 2010 models.

2. There have been no complaints of MLL rise on 2010 models so far.

3. The repair technician I spoke with, who understands the root cause of the 2009 MLL problem and how to temporarily fix it, claims that 2010 models don't have the problem at all.

I'm not saying the black levels are a certainty on the 2010 models but they are probably going to end up better than 2009 models. The theory is that 2009 models are over aggressive with the voltage increases and if this is the case, and if Panasonic have improved this, then there shouldn't be any major problems.

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Three reasons:

1. Panasonic have supposedly refined the algorithm for incrementing intialisation voltage in 2010 models.

2. There have been no complaints of MLL rise on 2010 models so far.

3. The repair technician I spoke with, who understands the root cause of the 2009 MLL problem and how to temporarily fix it, claims that 2010 models don't have the problem at all.

I'm not saying the black levels are a certainty on the 2010 models but they are probably going to end up better than 2009 models. The theory is that 2009 models are over aggressive with the voltage increases and if this is the case, and if Panasonic have improved this, then there shouldn't be any major problems.

Not enough time has passed to reach this conclusion. I have been paying attention to the AVS forum, the 2010 models observed there have the same declining blacks just in smaller increments. So ever the same time its the same issue. In addition to this there is observations of floating blacks as well in 2010 models.

Anyway, I spent a lot of time thinking about it and am just going to keep my current TV. The blacks have declined as much as they probably will and really its for gaming and games look great (theres not many pitch black games). I chose the TV for what it does well, and that is PQ and phenomenally low input lag. I dont wanna pay for a new one and go though all the hoops I decided, my 46' was pretty cheap (display model) will hold on and enjoy it for what it is (perfect for console gaming). When someone comes up with the perfect TV, I will upgrade (if even possible).

Thanks for the input guys.

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Not enough time has passed to reach this conclusion.

Yeah, I mean, I'm not reaching any conclusion either, but there are people on AVS with over 1000 hours and haven't had any MLL rise. I know D-Nice measured a slight rise on a pre-April manufactured unit (which, according to him, have worse MLL aging) but apart from that there haven't been any complaints yet. So basically Panasonic have done something to improve the MLL but we won't know until perhaps 6 or 12 months from now what the final MLL is. I just have a hunch that the problem with 2009 models was a complete botch up of the firmware and that they didn't need to rise at all. If we look at the 2009 patent, page 16, it shows that the contrast ratio should only drop from 5000:1 to just over 4000:1. Instead what we're seeing is a drop to 1700:1. My set has done exactly that: 5000:1 when new, currently 1900:1 after ~800hrs use (it's not fully risen yet). It's not normal behaviour and I doubt Panasonic would have deliberately designed them this way.

Also those black level ads they're running, would they really have the nerve to do that if their 2010 models suffered a 3x black level increase?

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1. Panasonic have supposedly refined the algorithm for incrementing intialisation voltage in 2010 models.

By all accounts it seems the “new algorithm” simply adjusts in smaller steps more often so the effects are less obvious, however the end result is much the same.

2. There have been no complaints of MLL rise on 2010 models so far.

I am surprised you say that since I believe you read AVS forum.

D-Nice and others have both observed and measured black level rise in the 2010 Panasonic's, his estimation is that a 300% rise can be expected. He knows people at Panasonic and apparently they may utilise some of Pioneers patents in a new panel for 2011 that does not suffer black level rise issues. Until that happens rising blacks are a fact of life with Panasonic Plasmas, so if you are a black level freak 2010 is not the year to buy a TV.

Edited by Owen

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Also those black level ads they're running, would they really have the nerve to do that if their 2010 models suffered a 3x black level increase?

Yes they would have the nerve! Perception is reality, in some people's minds. They got a lot of flack last year over black levels, so they need to change that "perception". This is the same company that have their customer service reps lie to you without a blink of the eye. It's all about marketing!

Andys.

Edited by andys

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By all accounts it seems the “new algorithm” simply adjusts in smaller steps more often so the effects are less obvious, however the end result is much the same.

Yeah I know that's what D-Nice said, but who do I believe - him or what I was told in person by a technician?

D-Nice and others have both observed and measured black level rise in the 2010 Panasonic's

What others have observed and measured MLL rise in the 2010 models? I haven't found anything on avsforum apart from D-Nice's measurement of a slight increase on a pre-April model.

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Yeah I know that's what D-Nice said, but who do I believe - him or what I was told in person by a technician?

I'll take D-Nice over a TV “technician” any time, those guys are typically just board jockeys who know f*&k all. If D-Nice says its so I'll put money on it, the guy is well connected, knows what he is talking about and has no reason to lie.

Edited by Owen

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I'll take D-Nice over a TV “technician” any time, those guys are typically just board jockeys who know f*&k all. If D-Nice says its so I'll put money on it, the guy is well connected, knows what he is talking about and has no reason to lie.

Yeah I don't think D-Nice is lieing, it's just the tech I've been talking with is actually very knowledgeable with regards to the MLL problem, in fact he said the problem is covered in the panasonic training seminars and that any tech who has done the training will know about the MLL rise, what causes it, and how to even reset it. So I tend to put more stock in what he is saying rather than what D-Nice is saying, for the time being at least.

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Panasonic have no credabillity and the latest black level adds only reduce that.It's like a rapist saying he won't do it again when he gets out of jail :rolleyes: The only way to gain credabillity is to admit you ****ed up in the first place and seek forgivness.They still have there head in the sand on the original crime!

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There is no mystery about what causes the black level rise on Panasonic's and Panasonic have no intention of eliminating the issue, no doubt for very good reasons, probably because they don't want to risk pixel misfire problems that would be noticeable to many customers, not just a few anal black level freaks.

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I'll take D-Nice over a TV “technician” any time, those guys are typically just board jockeys who know f*&k all. If D-Nice says its so I'll put money on it, the guy is well connected, knows what he is talking about and has no reason to lie.

+1

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Yes it will and the U20 will likely have the added issue of floating blacks.

Hey there, Would you mind stating where you came to this conclusion and if it is true, does this affect all 2010 models?

From what I could gathered from your previous posts, you seem to base this assumption on complaints/tests/video posted on avsforums. From what I have read up on, all panny plasmas differ in specs across differing countries, only UK came closest? Please correct me if I'm wrong. Looking through avforums (UK equivalent of AVS), I cant seem to find too many people who have complained of the floating blacks issue.

Also, I havent seen too many users on this forum or WP for that matter who seem to have encountered the problem and have complained about it and provided any evidence to support their claims. Without meaning any offense, it seems that yourself and Andys are very active in promoting this problem and quick to cite evidence from AVSforums. While I do not doubt that US users are suffering from the same problem, I have yet to see one single OZ video/test that shows it occurs on OZ models. You seem to have forgotten about the context in which the evidence that you have used came from.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but it appears yourself and others are of the opinion that the floating blacks is due to a design flaw, rather than a hardware fault. Given the differences in specs/panels used etc between models all over the world, I would say that it is possible that the combination of components in OZ models work together in such a way as to negate the issue caused by dynamic contrast.

I'm not trying to pick a fight here, but I find it a bit sus that there are only a few individuals who say this issue likely exists in Australia and even then are unable to back up their statements with any irrefutable proof (perhaps a video?). Also, I find that the power of suggestion is a strong thing. Given that this issue has received so much attention, it is possible that certain individuals have "imagined" their problem into existence (I know because I'm guilty of that!) so without any evidence other than from overseas, how can you possibly say with any degree of certainty that OZ models are affected as well?

I would really love to see an OZ model based video, that'll put any suspicions to rest!

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I had the 54V20A which has floating black level. I posted about it here. I tried recording it but my camera wouldn't pick it up.

Also, http://forums.whirlpool.net.au/forum-replies.cfm?t=1501670

But yeah, there doesn't seem to be many people complaining on the Aus forums. Maybe people just don't care, or are willing to put up with it.

Thanks for the reply Pneu...from what I can see you're virtually the only person that I have read about who has actually OWNED a set, noticed the floating black level and conducted arbitrary measurements. Much of what has been said here is largely just people running their mouths off without anything to back up what they have said except for material sourced from anywhere else but Aust. Thank goodness they have you to lend a degree of credence to what they claim.

BTW may I ask if the floating blacks were observable in a normally lit room or would you have to be in a completely dark one to notice anything? Also do you know of any reason why this issue should affect the ENTIRE 2010 lineup?

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BTW may I ask if the floating blacks were observable in a normally lit room or would you have to be in a completely dark one to notice anything?

Hi zanyboy,

During daytime viewing floating blacks will not be noticeable at all, but in the evening with dim lighting it will be easily noticeable. In my lounge area I have a 25watt lamp and a 40watt lamp at adjacent sides of the room to provide a soft glow of lighting in the evening. Under these lighting conditions the shift in brightness on dark scenes was easily noticeable and I found it distracting.

Also do you know of any reason why this issue should affect the ENTIRE 2010 lineup?

It's more of a question why SHOUDLN'T it affect the entire 2010 lineup. I mean, are you prepared to drop $2000 on a TV just hoping that it doesn't have the problem when people all over the world are complaining about the problem on basically every model?

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I'm not trying to pick a fight here, but I find it a bit sus that there are only a few individuals who say this issue likely exists in Australia and even then are unable to back up their statements with any irrefutable proof (perhaps a video?). Also, I find that the power of suggestion is a strong thing. Given that this issue has received so much attention, it is possible that certain individuals have "imagined" their problem into existence (I know because I'm guilty of that!) so without any evidence other than from overseas, how can you possibly say with any degree of certainty that OZ models are affected as well?

I would really love to see an OZ model based video, that'll put any suspicions to rest!

Why wouldn't it affect "Australian" models? Do you think they make special screens just for the 20mil. people here? :rolleyes:

JSmith :ninja:

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Both the black level rise over time and floating black are design choices NOT defects or accidents. That info comes direct from Panasonic and the rising black issue is even explained in Panasonic's Plasma patents.

Why would Panasonic employ a different design philosophy for the Australian market, there is no evidence that they have.

The rising black issue is relatively minor and the vast majority of owners will never notice, while floating blacks where common on CRT and most modern LCD's yet most people don't complain about it.

Zanyboy, I suggest you go audition the TV's you are interested in a dim or dark environment with a variety of content and see if you see anything you don't like. Just because some people are have issues does not mean you will.

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It seems the 2010 models aren't really all that different to the 2009 models:

http://news.cnet.com/8301-17938_105-20018722-1.html

Despite the large amount of negative commentary in this thread I didn't see anything in this review that alarms me - and I own one of these TVs. Even after the black level design feature "adjustment" from what I read it seems the resulting performance is still better than is available from competitor products.

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Even after the black level design feature "adjustment" from what I read it seems the resulting performance is still better than is available from competitor products.

Actually, it's not. Samsung 58/63" C7000's are 0.008-0.009ftL.

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Actually, it's not. Samsung 58/63" C7000's are 0.008-0.009ftL.

Correct..A lot of Pana owners used to quote "better black levels than the competiton even after the rise" with the 2009 model rise.

I was a devout Pana owner but have no regrets switching over to the Sammy 63c7000 plasma. No TV is perfect but the Sammy ticks more boxes for me including the keeping more money in my pocket "box". THe price for the 65vt20 is not competitve and as I predicted Pana are doing themselves no favours by over inflating their selling prices. I have read that there is no floating black issue with this model but the black levels will rise so it is interesting what will happen . Wait until Jan - Feb next year when the hours start to clock up. I hope the rise will be minimal as I still have a soft spot for Pana TV's and will probably buy a 2011 v series.

Edited by CC Rider

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Actually, it's not. Samsung 58/63" C7000's are 0.008-0.009ftL.

What was the black level measurement for your 58”, especially for 50Hz and 24Hz content?

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What was the black level measurement for your 58”, especially for 50Hz and 24Hz content?

0.014ftL.

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