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ageha

Panasonic's 2009 Plasma Lineup

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I think we may be on our last couple of generations of Plasma completely to be honest.. with the tough environmental standards for Europe, as well as the general shocking economic climate overseas, manufacturers won't be willing to spend too much on having two separate display ranges. Already you can see Samsung focusing a lot more on their LCD displays, Sony is all LCD, and nobody other than LGE seems that interested in Plasma. In the mind of consumers already LCD is the winner, and you can see this in the stores these days with the range/placement of the LCD's compared to the plasmas.

Even though I'm a fan of plasma, the gap is starting to narrow in picture quality as well.

This leaves Panasonic on the back foot, as they are well regarded for their plasmas, but to catch up on large screen LCD's they are quite behind the ball at the moment. This could leave them with a big dilemma pretty soon.

Panasonic dont do large LCD's at all and without plasma they dont have any alternatives. OLED and SED will be the next technologies but way too expensive for many years to come. The way I see it, Pana cant get into large LCD's quickly without using another companies panels which I dont think they will do. They cant get OLED prices to anywhere near attractive for the some time. They dont have Pio to compete with. They only really have one choice, milk as much out of plasma as they can. Now that they have all the top Pio engineers working for them, they should be able to get a few years out of the technology at least. I think they will make plasma more energy effiecient and thinner while at the same time getting less expensive. That should keep them ahead of LCD for the next few years. After that, if LCD makers can deal with the motion blur problems, they are home for a couple of years at least.

I am really looking forward to this new range and think they will strike the perfect balance between Pio-like black levels and PQ in general along with affordable pricing. I hope I am not wrong.

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Then again maybe Pioneer needed an excuse to exit plasmas and do R&D on LCD [or whatever else that have up their selves ]do you really believe all those poor people being sacked is due to the economic downturn many who are laying off people are hiding behind that excuse to trim excess off for more profits :unsure:

cheers laurie

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many who are laying off people are hiding behind that excuse to trim excess off for more profits

+1

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PX10A advertised in paper at HN $1699 42" & $2199 for the 50"

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although they're being advertised as full HDTVs when I thought these are 720p?

Yeah. They're 768p. I don't know why digitalcentre.com.au would say 1080p when the user manual they link on their page puts the PX10A at 1366*768.

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Guest ferni

But are they actually in stock anywhere? I was in HN today, and they had none.

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i got a price today for the 50 inch g10, for 3350, which i thought was a pretty good price.

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I am really looking forward to this new range and think they will strike the perfect balance between Pio-like black levels and PQ in general along with affordable pricing. I hope I am not wrong.

Sorry to burst your bubble mate, but the new Panasonics won’t have black levels much lower then the current models; they are certainly not in Kuro G8 territory and not even remotely close to the current Kuro G9.

Basically Panasonic are three generations behind Pioneer in black level, they have decided to go for brightness and energy efficiency rather then significantly improved blacks as its better for marketing against LCD.

Edited by Owen

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i got a price today for the 50 inch g10, for 3350, which i thought was a pretty good price.

I would have thought the V10 would be around that price? Just have to wait and see.

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Sorry to burst your bubble mate, but the new Panasonics won’t have black levels much lower then the current models; they are certainly not in Kuro G8 territory and not even remotely close to the current Kuro G9.

Basically Panasonic are three generations behind Pioneer in black level, they have decided to go for brightness and energy efficiency rather then significantly improved blacks as its better for marketing against LCD.

This makes me feel a whole lot better about buying my LX509. Can't wait till it gets here. Should only be about a week now. :D

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Sorry to burst your bubble mate, but the new Panasonics won’t have black levels much lower then the current models; they are certainly not in Kuro G8 territory and not even remotely close to the current Kuro G9.

Basically Panasonic are three generations behind Pioneer in black level, they have decided to go for brightness and energy efficiency rather then significantly improved blacks as its better for marketing against LCD.

Agreed. I personally think the Panasonic panels are over rated with the public, in particular the PZ800/850 range. I must admit, even owing a 50PZ800 in the past, I was never particularly impressed with it. SD material left a lot to be desired with these panels. My LG 50PG79 certainly gives it a run for it's money, and is clearly superior with SD broadcasts. I just hope it lasts! But the Kuro is still the "king."

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Sorry to burst your bubble mate, but the new Panasonics won't have black levels much lower then the current models; they are certainly not in Kuro G8 territory and not even remotely close to the current Kuro G9.

Basically Panasonic are three generations behind Pioneer in black level, they have decided to go for brightness and energy efficiency rather then significantly improved blacks as its better for marketing against LCD.

Owen , I think you are correct regarding the BLACK levels. The PIO's have " inky " blacks which are unparelleled. You don't need to read reviews to appreciate this........you can easily compare at most retailers that have a PIO , Pana or SAMSUNG plasmas.

However, what I have noticed is that the PIO panels seem to achieve these BLACK levels with the aid of glass tinting. What I've noticed when viewing Pioneer Plasmas is that there is considerably less detail that comes through the main picture. Watching a PIO and PANA side by side, the PIO gives greater depth of field , a greater sense of 3D if you will ??.........But when I was watching a NAT GEO type doco on these displays........the PIO was masking more detail in the rock formations / cave innards , and detail in the tree canopies. WIth the pana, you could see these minute details and it felt like you were " seeing " a lot more in th esame frame. When i stood back further than 3 metres ( 50" screens )........I found that watching the Pana was more pleasing to the eye.... ( read "my eye" ).

I think in a dimly lit home cinema type room with some tweaks to both sets, there is no doubt that the PIO would "shine" for want of a better word, but in most real world kitchen / lounge rooms with uncontrolled light enetering from the side / top / front of the screen, there is no doubt that the Pana will perform equally well and possibly give a more detailed picture for reasons I've given above. I guess this is why LCD screens are becoming so popular.....most people will watch their TV in reasonably well lit rooms. The "darker" picture of the PIO suffers more in these conditions and you might find yourself turning up the brightness / contrast / gamma etc to compensate........In essence, you end up compromising what these units are so good at doing........BLACK LEVELS....?????

The other thing to consider is the people that will be watching the TV...........LOL......

I sat there looking at all these sets for ages in the showrooms and ended up really liking the Pana and Samsung PLASMA picture qiality......My wife preferred the SAMSUNG overall........my kids hated the PLASMA and liked the LCD sets..........particularly the new 46" SONY LCD's. None of us picked the PIO ?????

Sometimes we all forget that the main calibration device for checking / testing and enjoying these TV sets...........is our own eyes....So when you get a group of people together all watcjing the same movie on the same TV set....you're bound to get interesting opinions on colour saturation , colur accuracy , black levels , detail etc etc.............

The other interesting debate we had was how BIG is too BIG..........LOL.......

The comfort factor for viewing distance varied by more than a metre for the same set !!!!!!!!!

Arghhhhh...........I think I'm gonna buy a separate Telly for each person........... :o

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Agreed. I personally think the Panasonic panels are over rated with the public, in particular the PZ800/850 range. I must admit, even owing a 50PZ800 in the past, I was never particularly impressed with it. SD material left a lot to be desired with these panels. My LG 50PG79 certainly gives it a run for it's money, and is clearly superior with SD broadcasts. I just hope it lasts! But the Kuro is still the "king."

Who the hell cares about SD TV?Sure as hell not me.It looks crap because it is crap.I bought my 50" PZ800 to watch HD content,mostly of the blu ray kind.Here in Tasmania even the HD TV looks mostly crap as well but that is because of the bandwidth issues on the feeds we get down here.On the other hand a 4 gb download of this years Superbowl from a 720p source i have looks absolutely sensational on the Pana.It's like 3 times better than any FTA broadcast i've ever seen.I look forward to a day when we get real HD TV in "Regional" Australia but i won't hold my breath :P

For me the money i saved on not buying a Pio is far better put towards a front speaker upgrade as sound is just as important to me as picture.

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MPEG enabled as required for Freeview certification. Wonder if the next firmware update for my PZ700 adds that function in the menu / memory chip

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Sorry to burst your bubble mate, but the new Panasonics won’t have black levels much lower then the current models; they are certainly not in Kuro G8 territory and not even remotely close to the current Kuro G9.

Basically Panasonic are three generations behind Pioneer in black level, they have decided to go for brightness and energy efficiency rather then significantly improved blacks as its better for marketing against LCD.

Owen, go over to AVS and read some posts on the new Pana's. I have read about 8000 posts in 3 threads and although nobody has said that they are blacker than the Pio's many are saying that they are very close almost to the point that one can hardly tell and need equipment to measure the difference. In addition, they are saying that there is more detail in the Pana image in dark scenes. Now I'm not biased one way or the other (apart from the fact that I cant afford an LX609) but the value proposition in favour of the G10 range (in the US at least) now puts it at the top of the pile for many reviewers and pro calibrators over at AVS. So I am no longer drooling over the Pio's without any hope of getting any satisfaction, I am gonna get a Pana and be happy that I will get the best value for money on the TV market full stop. Pio is king but Pana is Emperor.

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Owen tends to go overboard on the black levels ... : P of course its a factor, but its definately not the only one that makes up a good picture.

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MPEG enabled as required for Freeview certification. Wonder if the next firmware update for my PZ700 adds that function in the menu / memory chip

You had a FW update on the 7 series?

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Just picked up a TC-P42G10 for $1640 from JB-HiFi with total of 5 years warranty.

Hopefully that was a decent deal.

Colour reproduction is very good (including black levels)

Blu-Ray playback is good - 1080p output signal with TV picture scaling to 720p (only tested it out with Harry Potter 1 - will have to try newer movies)

Let you guys know more as I play around with it.

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Just picked up a TC-P42G10 for $1640 from JB-HiFi with total of 5 years warranty.

Hopefully that was a decent deal.

Colour reproduction is very good (including black levels)

Blu-Ray playback is good - 1080p output signal with TV picture scaling to 720p (only tested it out with Harry Potter 1 - will have to try newer movies)

Let you guys know more as I play around with it.

A G10!!!!!

Man I gotta get my butt in there to check it out!

Please keep us posted. Sounds like a decent deal with price too. Do you have any connections in JB or were they on the shelf??

Thanks

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is the g10 1080p, or 720p? ive been told different things, but on the panasonic website, the g10's are 1080p.

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However, what I have noticed is that the PIO panels seem to achieve these BLACK levels with the aid of glass tinting. What I've noticed when viewing Pioneer Plasmas is that there is considerably less detail that comes through the main picture. Watching a PIO and PANA side by side, the PIO gives greater depth of field , a greater sense of 3D if you will ?? .........But when I was watching a NAT GEO type doco on these displays........the PIO was masking more detail in the rock formations / cave innards , and detail in the tree canopies. WIth the pana, you could see these minute details and it felt like you were " seeing " a lot more in th esame frame. When i stood back further than 3 metres ( 50" screens )........I found that watching the Pana was more pleasing to the eye.... ( read "my eye" ).

The screen tint is required to reduce the visibility of idle luminance AND reduce the reflection of room lighting back off the panels phosphor surface, a problem for Plasmas.

The tint does not reduce image detail, just like a neutral density filter does not when fitted to a camera lens.

The perceived detail difference you refer to can be due to a couple of things, most likely image brightness relative to the viewing environment (relative contrast). A good example of this is a comparison between a bright LCD and a typical Plasma which is normally not as bright, most people perceive the LCD as sharper and more detailed even though the same detail is displayed on both.

If the detail difference is in shadow areas it is due to a difference in display gamma (adjustable on the Kuro). The default gamma setting on the Pioneers is a bit high numerically to accentuate the deep blacks, however this makes shadow detail less visible and makes the overall picture dimmer. Video is produced with a nominally standard gamma of 2.2, displays with a low numerical value for gamma will have excessive shadow detail which is not only inaccurate but will reveal noise and compression artifacts. Displays with the same gamma with have the same shadow detail.

Another thing to consider when evaluating image sharpness and apparent detail is the internal sharpening in the display; this varies significantly from manufacturer to manufacture with Samsung normally guilty of the most over the top default sharpening.

You cannot judge how much sharpening is being applied by looking at the display settings as a middle setting on one model can easily be similar to a maximum setting on another, that’s why a sharpness test pattern is required to adjust the sharpness control and check for hidden sharpening which may be applied by non user adjustable filters in the display processing chain.

I think in a dimly lit home cinema type room with some tweaks to both sets, there is no doubt that the PIO would "shine" for want of a better word, but in most real world kitchen / lounge rooms with uncontrolled light enetering from the side / top / front of the screen, there is no doubt that the Pana will perform equally well and possibly give a more detailed picture for reasons I've given above. I guess this is why LCD screens are becoming so popular.....most people will watch their TV in reasonably well lit rooms. The "darker" picture of the PIO suffers more in these conditions and you might find yourself turning up the brightness / contrast / gamma etc to compensate........In essence, you end up compromising what these units are so good at doing........BLACK LEVELS....?????

That’s a very valid point and one worth making, unfortunately there is no display that is suitable for both dim and bright viewing environments so people have to choose what is important to them and compromise accordingly.

Sometimes we all forget that the main calibration device for checking / testing and enjoying these TV sets...........is our own eyes....So when you get a group of people together all watcjing the same movie on the same TV set....you're bound to get interesting opinions on colour saturation , colur accuracy , black levels , detail etc etc.............

That’s also fair comment, however most people are accustomed to viewing TV’s that are horribly inaccurate and don’t know what the image should look like, hence the love of LCD’s. To each his/here own I suppose.

The other interesting debate we had was how BIG is too BIG..........LOL.......

The comfort factor for viewing distance varied by more than a metre for the same set !!!!!!!!!

I have never seen a TV that is too big for a 3 meter viewing distance for 1080 HD content, a 60” is demonstrably not big enough. What looks massive and potentially uncomfortable at first soon becomes normal after a week or so, how many people send a TV back because it is too big? :D Plenty of people want to upgrade 42” and 50” models for a larger display.

Arghhhhh...........I think I'm gonna buy a separate Telly for each person........... :o

Nah, get the display you like and let everyone else adapt to it, they will. :D

Edited by Owen

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Just picked up a TC-P42G10 for $1640 from JB-HiFi with total of 5 years warranty.

Hopefully that was a decent deal.

Colour reproduction is very good (including black levels)

Blu-Ray playback is good - 1080p output signal with TV picture scaling to 720p (only tested it out with Harry Potter 1 - will have to try newer movies)

Let you guys know more as I play around with it.

Haha, you know whats funny - the fact that I just posted the completly wrong model...ahh if only

Actually got a TH-P42X10A (as the box says)

Sorry to get your hopes up ;)

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Owen, go over to AVS and read some posts on the new Pana's. I have read about 8000 posts in 3 threads and although nobody has said that they are blacker than the Pio's many are saying that they are very close almost to the point that one can hardly tell and need equipment to measure the difference. In addition, they are saying that there is more detail in the Pana image in dark scenes. Now I'm not biased one way or the other (apart from the fact that I cant afford an LX609) but the value proposition in favour of the G10 range (in the US at least) now puts it at the top of the pile for many reviewers and pro calibrators over at AVS. So I am no longer drooling over the Pio's without any hope of getting any satisfaction, I am gonna get a Pana and be happy that I will get the best value for money on the TV market full stop. Pio is king but Pana is Emperor.

Yes there are plenty of posts about the new Panasonics on AVS, however if you want to read some by a guy who has a clue read the posts by DNice, he is a pro calibrator and owns Kuros and a brand new G12 Panasonic, you will then get a better idea of the relative merits of the Panasonics compared to G8 and G9 Kuro’s.

The new Panasonics appear to offer comparable performance to the old G8 Kuro, well close enough that most people would not care, however the G9 Kuro is significantly better for black level and overall image quality.

If one display shows more shadow detail then another the display gamma is different, nothing more. There is a standard for gamma and too much shadow detail is as bad as too little, gamma is adjustable on the Kuro.

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Owen tends to go overboard on the black levels ... : P of course its a factor, but its definately not the only one that makes up a good picture.

I go on about it because it really matters to me, and many others.

Black level is not the ONLY factor in creating a good image, but if you view in a dim or dark environment it's probably THE most important one.

People who consider black level is unimportant should consider buying an LG, other then black level that are really quite good and a 61” can be had for around half the price of a 60” Pioneer.

Edited by Owen

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