The Tv Industry Is Dying

[nis200979]

Is the tv industry slowly dying?

I just bought a new bicycle - a carbon road bike worth something between a 50" and 60" LX PDP. What a great experience that was. Excellent service again from my local bike shop, 3 test rides with my own pedals and shoes, and then an expert fit on my bike of choice. I also get a free tune up when I require it, and 'membership' to their group rides on Tuesday nights and weekends. I got a small discount, but could not complain. And the bicycle forums where all about helfpul opinions and feedback, not endless best price threads.

Buying a tv was not so enjoyable. After visiting various retailers I discovered it's an industry shortstaffed, and even worse, short of experienced and knowledgable staff. And there is a reason for it, much of it stems from here.

The tv industry is all about best price, and tv retailers are slowly turning into Kmart and Big W. I'll beat their price by $x once you know what you want. How much does a retailer make on a TV at $3k RRP? Once they sell it for $2300 I bet the staff member makes less than $200 margin, or $20 commission at best. Who stays in an industry like that for the long haul? In the end, it's us that suffers.

The exception is the speaker market where my above good experiences can be found reguarly. I remeber buying my Canton speakers at Klapp in South Yarra was fantastic. I auditioned them in a professionally setup enviroment with various amplifaction. After buying at 12pm they actually ordered the stock and had it by the end of the day. Follow up visits where also enjoyable.

[frog_A_lot]

I don't think its dying, people are always going to still want TV's or projectors or whatever, but the thing is alot of places that sell high end equipment put more effort into the sales point and probably make more money.

Like if you went to buy your bike from K-mart or Big W (if they ever sold it) you would probably not think the same things about your buying experience, it depends on where you buy your stuff from, how much you are spending etc.

And that shops you are talking about for buying tvs also sell alot more than tvs, like JB etc sell everything electrical so its not really the 'TV Market'.

[alanh]

All,

My main concern is the selection of the products being sold. The importers are selling to the retailers who have no knowledge of what is good.

For example;

Indoor antennas. There is a huge range of products. Their VHF sections are identical (rabbits ears) and some come with amplfiers. The difference is the UHF sections, there is only 2 models with any directivity of significance. ( Indoor Antennas). Why then aren't we only selling a small range of these mostly ineffective devices?

Why with STBS down to under $80 for HD and $39 for SD are we still selling antennas designed for channels below channel 6. With the exception of SW WA there is only 18,000 people in remoter places who still must have this. Bunnings for example only have one antenna a UHF phased array which could truely be said to be for Digital reception.

The farce that retailers and installers are selling "digital antennas" whose only modification is to have the bandwidth to receive channel 11 & 12 but still receive channels 1 - 5A is not a digital antenna. These antennas are only required in the capital cities (excluding Canberra) for those who still want analog. This type of antenna is less sensitive than the true digital antenna and is much better at receiving interference which makes digital reception unreliable. With the analog switchoff starting wouldn't it be better to stop selling antennas for analog so that when digital receivers are bought that they are reliable and giving digital a bad name which it does not deserve.

Other examples are when Plasma first started why did they import 720 x 480 TVs when the picture quality was worse than the existing colour TVs? These were dumped on our market when the USA had moved up to 1280x 720 displays.

I would totally agree that there is very little real training for retail staff. For example why aren't HDMI connections used instead of all others to give the best result and is the simplest connection. Particularly when retailers sell the leads for ridiculous prices. One cable should be included and the cheaper RCA cables left out. I see a profit motive here instead of an educated retailer.

Why is it that the electronics retailers are now starting to sell HDMI repeaters so that a long HDMI cable can feed a projector mounted on the ceiling?

Alanh

[alfalfa]

Other examples are when Plasma first started why did they import 720 x 480 TVs when the picture quality was worse than the existing colour TVs? These were dumped on our market when the USA had moved up to 1280x 720 displays.

Not sure what you mean by this? A 720x480p plasma has more resolution than SD PAL signal contains. Remember about 30% of the vertical resolution is lost in an interlaced signal so 576i has less than 480 pixels worth of vertical resolution.

Owen would be the person to ask about the specific technical details. He made a detailed post once about the issue (no longer available)

In fact Panasonic 480p plasmas had better picture quality than their 768 equivalents because the bigger pixels allowed for more brightness with the same black levels. Therefore the 480p models had better contrast levels. As long as you were not sitting close enough to see the pixels then the 480p model was better for SD tv.

Edited January 3, 2009 by alfalfa

[pgdownload]

"TV industry" is rather broad? You seem to be talking about the "TV sales industry"? And yes it is mostly dying and this is not necessarily a bad thing. Whilst there will always be room for boutique niche stores which offer full service options to those with the $, televisions have largely been commodified - anyone can buy one and plug it in. Quality is largely linked to $ and as you say forums like this one and the internet in general mean that consumers can be very informed before they enter a store. You overlook the fact that "service" stores have a real incentive in keeping consumers thinking they are the only ones that can help us through the "maze". I'm not sure how we are all suffering as we surf a few sites, determine a fair price and whats good and whats not and spend a day scouting a good deal before a big screen TV is delivered to our home for our enjoyment?

Regards

Peter Gillespie

[alanh]

alfalfa,

CRTs are still to be matched with the fidelity of the colour

The broadcast signals in analog was 720 x 576 interlaced.

My neighbour showed me his new (then) plasma. My initial reaction was why is its pictures so "soft" (lacking in sharpness). I had no knowledge of this display's technical characteristics. I went home and looked up the model to find it was a 480 line model.

I used to work in TV studios using CRT monitors every where including my TV at home.

The pixel size is irrelevant for large area parts of the picture unless the spacing between the pixel changes.

AlanH

[mrdenn1s]

You are comparing a specialist grade bike with a consumer grade TV

This is not a fair comparison.

Go and buy a $495 mountain bike and see where the knowledge base is?

The equivalent of your high end bike that has millions of variable componanents is maybe a $10k Pioneer. In TV's, once you get above consumer grade (lets say $4k), there are not many options left to buy. Also, variables dont exist.

In bikes, maybe non consumer pricing starts at $1k +. Above this, and you are in specialist territory where every part matters and can be changed to your taste.

Your comments about speakers makes sense, as you can tailor speakers to amps to cables to input source, etc....therefore, expert knowledge is needed

[alfalfa]

alfalfa,

CRTs are still to be matched with the fidelity of the colour

The broadcast signals in analog was 720 x 576 interlaced.

My neighbour showed me his new (then) plasma. My initial reaction was why is its pictures so "soft" (lacking in sharpness). I had no knowledge of this display's technical characteristics. I went home and looked up the model to find it was a 480 line model.

I used to work in TV studios using CRT monitors every where including my TV at home.

The pixel size is irrelevant for large area parts of the picture unless the spacing between the pixel changes.

AlanH

I am a bit confused as to what your point is.

Are you saying we shouldnt be buying plasma tvs because they do not have the picture quality of direct view CRTs?

Are you saying that 480 res plasmas were worse than their 768 equivalents back then?

[nis200979]

All,

My main concern is the selection of the products being sold. The importers are selling to the retailers who have no knowledge of what is good.

....

Other examples are when Plasma first started why did they import 720 x 480 TVs when the picture quality was worse than the existing colour TVs? These were dumped on our market when the USA had moved up to 1280x 720 displays.

Alanh

I think hey were actually 852x480 plasmas Alan. This is NTSC resolution.

As another post has indicated, very many SD plasmas gave a better picture than the HD versions because they had better contrast and brightness.

Also, scaling has been poor in the past.

4 yrs ago you could get a quality SD Panasonic plasma for about $3k+set top box. Seeing as there was little to no HD content available they were a great tv. Many of those buyers can now buy a full HD 50" Panasonic for the same price as what a 720p PDP used to be.

What would I rather watch at 2.5m? A 76cm CRT or a 42" SD PDP.

I would watch the PDP anyday due to the much larger viewing area. At 1.5m you might say the CRT is better, but the scan lines of a CRT are really annoying once you get used to a PDP.

I think the people who think CRTs are still better than a Pioneer LX PDP are kidding themselves, or defending themselves to others why they still have their 95kg Sony dinosaurs.

[jbman]

I feel retail in general is gone to low cost staff and get you in and out the door.

Walk into a shop and 9 times out of ten the service is average to say the least.

I bought some new sun glasses recently, first shop I went to not even interested to come over and ask would I like to try a pair on, two young kids walk up they ask if they would like a hand. The look at a few and walk out, no intention to buy. I walk into the next shop get served right away spend a good 30 mins trying them on and find a pair and purchase them then and there. Now I recommend this shop to everyone I know, plus I went back again for the misses to buy a pair.

TV, bought it in JB HI, just a production line, this is the price, and thats it. No service at all.

At first I put this down to the boom here in WA since everywhere was complaining about staff levels and getting staff, but I look around speak to others who work in the retail industry and its just a case the owners don't care. Get them in and out, make them work Boxing day, which I have done many years in the past and felt the company lacked Christmas spirit not closing for one extra day in the year.

Go into a my local Big W, used to be in and out easy with checkouts all open and ready to serve, now, minimal staff on who don't want to be there.

So is this retail in general or something else?

[DrP]

I think hey were actually 852x480 plasmas Alan. This is NTSC resolution.

Analogue SD video when converted to a digital format ('D1') regardless of being NTSC or PAL is 720 samples across. For 4:3 PAL the active part of the picture is a nominal 702 pixels in the centre of that 720, for NTSC its 711 (712).

What is transmitted over the air in Australia's PAL system is capable of being accurately represented by 528 of those 720 samples (13.5MHz sample rate).

As for the TV (manufacturing and retail) industry dying? Hardly. Its simply a continuing process of what has happened to all home electrical devices. They get cheaper and cheaper over time, squeezing out or forcing change upon the higher end / more expensive side of the process. FTA transmission dying out? Now there's a topic for discusssion.

Edited January 3, 2009 by DrP

[kulfi]

Go into a my local Big W, used to be in and out easy with checkouts all open and ready to serve, now, minimal staff on who don't want to be there.

This is a Woolies policy - remove checkout staff and replace them with "Self Serve Checkouts" - 4 to 8 ATM-based counters staffed by one person.

As to the OP's idea, he got great service when he purchased a bicycle that costs over $5000 (when most bicycles are under $500). If I was buying a TV that costs $30,000, then I would expect a great deal of service compared to items under $2,000. I don't see any merit in buying a bicycle for over $5,000 if you're not a Tour De France or Olympic competitor. Some folks have too much money to spend and then go around looking down on others - kinda like the snobs who buy Porsches/Astons and then crawl along in 40 km/hr school zones abusing the common folks for blocking their Royal Highness' way with their disgusting Holdens, Fords and Toyotas. All I have to say to the OP is this - if you don't like the box movers, go to your "specialist" retailers, buy B&O TVs/Vertu mobile phones etc and leave us commoners to our own devices.

[Owen]

alfalfa,

CRTs are still to be matched with the fidelity of the colour

The broadcast signals in analog was 720 x 576 interlaced.

My neighbour showed me his new (then) plasma. My initial reaction was why is its pictures so "soft" (lacking in sharpness). I had no knowledge of this display's technical characteristics. I went home and looked up the model to find it was a 480 line model.

I used to work in TV studios using CRT monitors every where including my TV at home.

The pixel size is irrelevant for large area parts of the picture unless the spacing between the pixel changes.

AlanH

CRT used phosphor just like CRT, so there is no reason CRT is inherently any better for colour, in fact some current Plasma have very clever colour management systems that allow levels of accuracy (after calibration) that are simply impossible on even the best CRT’s which never used such systems.

It is also rare if not impossible to find a CRT with accurate primary colour phosphors to the REC.709 standard and no CRT I have ever seen (other then high end CRT PC monitors) has been even close to accurate as delivered.

95% of domestic CRT TV’s have dismal color accuracy.

As for sharpness, CRT TV’s use a stack of edge enhancement in the tube drive which looks ok on a tiny screen, but try that on a large screen and it looks bloody dreadful.

I remember doing side by side comparisons of the old 480 line and 768 line 42” Plasmas and at 3 meters they was bugger all in it for image sharpness, deinterlacing performance was the big issue back then.

CRT TV’s used a lot of overscan which meant that there was never anywhere near 576 lines on screen, you got 500 lines on screen if you where lucky, often less.

[DrP]

Domestic CRTs usually have poor geometry, poor convergence and purity problems. The real leg up for a domestic CRTs IMO is the fact that they handle interlaced content far more gracefully than any domestic LCD or PDP I've ever come across. Which is hardly surprising given the progressive nature of LCDs and PDPs.

[JKramer]

Since you bought the "Advaned" type of bike with carbon frame you must have an idea beforehand on what do you want.

I bet you bought a bike doing research on the Internet or whatever. Then you came to bike shop and bought knowing what you want.

Same with TV. You research google/forums then hit the shops and find the best deal on the model you want.

The poor people who have no clue on what bike or TV they want will get screwed at the shop anyway.

[nis200979]

Some folks have too much money to spend and then go around looking down on others - kinda like the snobs who buy Porsches/Astons and then crawl along in 40 km/hr school zones abusing the common folks for blocking their Royal Highness' way with their disgusting Holdens, Fords and Toyotas. All I have to say to the OP is this - if you don't like the box movers, go to your "specialist" retailers, buy B&O TVs/Vertu mobile phones etc and leave us commoners to our own devices.

Whether you are buying a Hyundai Getz or and Aston Martin Vanquish, you get good service. You get a full timer interested in selling to you. You may get a discount, but generally the staff member is remunerated enough that he/she takes pride in their job and makes it a career.

Selling TVs is becoming a uni job, or a job for people with not many other opportunities/skills.

My experience was that buying a serious bicycle $800+ from a local bike shop usually results in getting prompt service from someone who enjoys their job, backup service, etc.

[kulfi]

Whether you are buying a Hyundai Getz or and Aston Martin Vanquish, you get good service. You get a full timer interested in selling to you. You may get a discount, but generally the staff member is remunerated enough that he/she takes pride in their job and makes it a career.

Selling TVs is becoming a uni job, or a job for people with not many other opportunities/skills.

My experience was that buying a serious bicycle $800+ from a local bike shop usually results in getting prompt service from someone who enjoys their job, backup service, etc.

Maybe Melbourne car dealers give good service and take pride in their "careers". My experiences (and those of my mates) with dealerships in Sydney have been very different. I can't comment about bicycles because I don't ride them so I haven't had any contact with those dealers.

Selling TVs, or other AV equipment, isn't exclusively a uni job. Several areas of the economy are filled with dodgy operators in much the same way as used-car salesmen who have a poor reputation. There was a general staff shortage which led employers to hire anybody and everybody.

[rezok]

This is a Woolies policy - remove checkout staff and replace them with "Self Serve Checkouts" - 4 to 8 ATM-based counters staffed by one person.

As to the OP's idea, he got great service when he purchased a bicycle that costs over $5000 (when most bicycles are under $500). If I was buying a TV that costs $30,000, then I would expect a great deal of service compared to items under $2,000. I don't see any merit in buying a bicycle for over $5,000 if you're not a Tour De France or Olympic competitor. Some folks have too much money to spend and then go around looking down on others - kinda like the snobs who buy Porsches/Astons and then crawl along in 40 km/hr school zones abusing the common folks for blocking their Royal Highness' way with their disgusting Holdens, Fords and Toyotas. All I have to say to the OP is this - if you don't like the box movers, go to your "specialist" retailers, buy B&O TVs/Vertu mobile phones etc and leave us commoners to our own devices.

Deary me, you sound like a disgruntled Toyota driver. Why are you assuming all Porsche drivers are snobs? Is there is little tinge of jealousy there? To be honest, most rich folk wouldn't spend the time looking down on others, they're too busy monitoring their portfolios!

And to the OP - I understand your point, but as someone correctly outlined, TVs are commodities, high end carbon road bikes are not. To be sure, I dont think the TV industry ever existed. You went to Billy Guyatts or Myer to buy a TV - only difference now is the industry works on higher turnover, lower margin and JB is the king of the volume sale, low margin...good stuff I say.

[Sabor]

Whether you are buying a Hyundai Getz or and Aston Martin Vanquish, you get good service. You get a full timer interested in selling to you. You may get a discount, but generally the staff member is remunerated enough that he/she takes pride in their job and makes it a career.

Selling TVs is becoming a uni job, or a job for people with not many other opportunities/skills.

My experience was that buying a serious bicycle $800+ from a local bike shop usually results in getting prompt service from someone who enjoys their job, backup service, etc.

I'm not sure the service and after-sales from purchasing a vehicle or a bicycle is necessarily as good as that and on the flipside, purchasing a TV as bad.

For example, I have heard and experienced some not so desirable stories (ie horror) re a certain so-called high end Euro brand of vehicle. It's not necessarily commonplace across all dealerships but isolated to certain ones. OK, maybe one but that's for another discussion

Also years ago and new to road cycling, I expressed an interest towards a 105-equipped Trek (not a high-end Carbon-fibre machine but still costing reasonable $$$) they had on display. This frame was ill-fitting (two sizes too big), but at the time I didn't know any better and the salesperson had no qualms about trying to sell that floor model to me.

At another specialist store, I took my bike for a routine service and upon return they had replaced my chain and cassette without asking me first! (Even though the original seemed fine and had only done maybe 2000Km).

Life story over, my point is you'll get good and bad service everywhere. With TVs, sure you'll get your nasties form K-Mart, Big W et al but it's exactly the same with bikes, cars etc and not necessarily dependant upon the brand.

Sure you wouldn't expect stellar service if you were purchasing a K-mart speciale (but the K-mart staff might surprise you yet! Or not). You'd expect better service if you were purchasing a $13,000 Pinarello and will probably get it but it's not necessarily an iron-clad guarantee.

[kulfi]

Deary me, you sound like a disgruntled Toyota driver. Why are you assuming all Porsche drivers are snobs? Is there is little tinge of jealousy there? To be honest, most rich folk wouldn't spend the time looking down on others, they're too busy monitoring their portfolios!

It has nothing to do with jealousy. I've read loads of disgusting comments from those snobs on the Internet and seen enough Euro-mobile drivers flipping the bird and shouting f-words to know what they're worth.

[Hosko]

Whether you are buying a Hyundai Getz or and Aston Martin Vanquish, you get good service. You get a full timer interested in selling to you. You may get a discount, but generally the staff member is remunerated enough that he/she takes pride in their job and makes it a career.

Selling TVs is becoming a uni job, or a job for people with not many other opportunities/skills.

My experience was that buying a serious bicycle $800+ from a local bike shop usually results in getting prompt service from someone who enjoys their job, backup service, etc.

How many people would buy a car without having a test drive?? Not many

How many people buy TV's without getting a very high level of service?? A lot. Just look at how many group buys this site does.

So if your running a large chain store your not going to put on extra staff so every customer can have a salesman spend 30mins with them. We the public are also guilty because we don't pay extra for service, we continually try to shop around and find the lowest price rather then the place that has the best customer service. A salesman might spend 30mins with a customer and then they leave trying to find a better price, which generally will come from a place that doesn't have the extra staff to server customers.

[nis200979]

How many people would buy a car without having a test drive?? Not many

How many people buy TV's without getting a very high level of service?? A lot. Just look at how many group buys this site does.

So if your running a large chain store your not going to put on extra staff so every customer can have a salesman spend 30mins with them. We the public are also guilty because we don't pay extra for service, we continually try to shop around and find the lowest price rather then the place that has the best customer service. A salesman might spend 30mins with a customer and then they leave trying to find a better price, which generally will come from a place that doesn't have the extra staff to server customers.

And you read online here people buying from a different shop for $50-$100 difference, even though they might have spent time with a salesperson.

It's pretty pathetic on a $2-3k sale to go next door for $50. I bet buildling a relationship with a store would be worth much more than $50 over time.

Some sales people work hard and if you wait for your desired staff member they notice it and usually look after you better.

[kulfi]

And you read online here people buying from a different shop for $50-$100 difference, even though they might have spent time with a salesperson.

It's pretty pathetic on a $2-3k sale to go next door for $50. I bet buildling a relationship with a store would be worth much more than $50 over time.

Some sales people work hard and if you wait for your desired staff member they notice it and usually look after you better.

I agree but there are two conditions -

1) The store should be interested in building a relationship rather than just moving a box and washing its hands off the matter

2) The salesperson should be there to help you the next time you want something

At least one of these will not be met, given that most stores are box movers and most salespeople are casual employees. In such a situation, $50 to $100 looks better in your pocket compared to the store's balance sheet.

It's better to look at TVs in all stores without bothering to talk to salespeople, narrow the selection down to one or two TVs, haggle on the prices and then play with the TVs at the store that is offering the best price to finalise the TV that you're likely to purchase.

[Klipper]

I been buying hi-fi equipment for 25 years and i usually pay less what the retailer and i wreckin it helps if u are a good communicator and know what u want i just bought another projection screen and rrp is $1800 and most of the joints got quoted me around $1300-$1400 cash and 1 joint gave me the screen for a $1000 and thats $300 less what he pays for it and i also checked and found out what the retailer payed for it but at the end of the day he knows i am going back to buy something else and i usually order on the phone because the person at the other end knows me or i will send someone to him to buy something.

Regards Lino.

[nis200979]

This is a Woolies policy - remove checkout staff and replace them with "Self Serve Checkouts" - 4 to 8 ATM-based counters staffed by one person.

As to the OP's idea, he got great service when he purchased a bicycle that costs over $5000 (when most bicycles are under $500). If I was buying a TV that costs $30,000, then I would expect a great deal of service compared to items under $2,000. I don't see any merit in buying a bicycle for over $5,000 if you're not a Tour De France or Olympic competitor. Some folks have too much money to spend and then go around looking down on others - kinda like the snobs who buy Porsches/Astons and then crawl along in 40 km/hr school zones abusing the common folks for blocking their Royal Highness' way with their disgusting Holdens, Fords and Toyotas. All I have to say to the OP is this - if you don't like the box movers, go to your "specialist" retailers, buy B&O TVs/Vertu mobile phones etc and leave us commoners to our own devices.

It's a bit like a $3k 46" LCD when really a $149 CRT from Kmart does the same job!!!

If you spend 4hrs a night watching BD/DVDs, get a good tv you get alot of enjoyment out of it.

If you do 600kms a week on two wheels then you appreciate a good bike.

PS: I would pobably be spending $5k+ on the wheels (let alone the rest of the bike) for the Tour!!

I just hate spending large amounts of money on equipment and struggling to get good service. With the whole financial / economic crisis progressing I can only see this trend of JB like service spreading throughmore and more industries, and true specialists who offer specialist range and knowledge slowly dying out.

And much of this forum has changed into price threads. There are many very knowledgeable people ready to make comments, and help with problems, but the main problem seems to be tight @sse5 who are prepared to pay a fair price. No wonder people get led down the monster path - it's the only way to make money.