Price Rise For Lcd/plasmas

[crtlover]

Where can you get a Philips 47" LCD for less than $2000?

You can't now, of course because Philips no longer sell LCD

TVs in Australasia.

But you can get a 46" Samsung or Sony for that price.

[crtlover]

Pioneer PDP-LX508A

RRP: $7999, Street price for old stock: $3800

Price drop: 52%

Pioneer PDP-LX608A

RRP: $11999, DigitalCentre price: $6499

Price drop: 46%

(RRP Source: CNET.com.au)

I don't think that it's valid to compare the price that the 508 and 608

currently sell for. They are both superceded models, (replaced with

the 509 and 609 series) and have been in the market for at least 18 months.

You'll always get a better deal on a superceded model. Done it myself.

We're talking about a current model 609 series dropping 40% in 6 months.

Also, you cannot place much store in Pioneer's RRP. They're a load of crap.

You can always get a much better deal on day one. As evidenced by my purchase

of a 600M (Pioner's RRP $12,999.00 NZD) for $9000.00. That's a 30% price drop

right there!

So really, when you're talking about price reductions you have to quote 'real world'

figures. That is - what you actually have to pay for it.

I think, also, that what tends to hold up the prices for Pioneer panels is that they

don't seem to import huge quantities or flood the market like Samsung or Pioneer.

As evidenced by how hard it is now to locate an 08 floor model.

Sorry that you're disillusioned with flat panels. Give a high quality, high

definition, signal and when well set up they can display a stunning picture.

SD DVD and off the air normal TV transmission can look crappy if not

properly calibrated.

[Owen]

The excuses given is that these are torched up and/or set in dynamic mode in-store.

I understand, but does it have to be EVERY flat panel in EVERY store.

Surely if the units are set up properly for the lighting conditions (maybe just turn the lights off for Plasma) they will get the best picture and thus the best chance of a sale.

I asked a sales rep in a Bing Lee store just yesterday to switch over to a Blu-Ray source instead of Ch.9 HD to compare a Samsung 950 next to the new Sony XBR45,

but all I got from the rep was "Sorry, I can't, that's how they're set-up".

Unbelievable.

At the moment, I'm pretty confident I can plonk my 8 year old 80cm 100Hz Sony CRT (their best CRT and $4.5K back then) with no adjustments against any of these sets and it will absolutely lap them in terms

of a TV's most important attribute, PICTURE QUALITY.

I thought I would walk into a store, look at a flat panel and say:

"Brilliant... I just gotta have it... here's the money... how long before I get it...".

Unfortunately not at the current quality and price.

Signed,

Very Disullusioned.

Try viewing your 80cm Sony from 1.5 meters (less for wide screen content) and tell me how great it looks, even the high end HD Sony CRT’s are looking a bid shabby up that close, but that’s the sort of distance you need to view from to really judge quality on a screen that small. On a size corrected basis a good Plasma is way better then an 80cm 4:3 Sony CRT and better then the high end HD wide screen Sony CRT’s as well, IMHO.

[Owen]

I was just thinking more about the earlier comments by Owen and jimval about the lack of high-end product. It probably is out there in the "real" specialist stores or can be ordered in. I am assuming that you both might be referring to general availability.

I sell a range of quality products and without going into detail, we select our retailers carefully, choosing those we feel will have the expertise and willingness to advise customers carefully and ensure they purchase the most appropriate items from our range to suit there needs. We tend to avoid heavy discounters because in the end everyone's margins are eroded by these guys and there is less reason to sell them.

So, based on that, I assume that the high-end HT suppliers realise this and refuse to sell through the discount outlets or have their products bastardised thus losing perceived value and thus becoming just another brand. It appears that Pioneer struggles with this from time to time... having seen them come and go from JB's a couple times. If you want to be a volume seller you need to have low prices and sell everywhere. But ultimately you will make little or no money from that.

The smart low-volume high-end guys are probably doing quite nicely profit wise, and best staying out of the discount stores. Only risk is will the specialists survive and without them will the high-end guys go too, at least in Australia.

I agree with your comments and sentiment, with the exception of the availability of “high end” product, at least as far as displays go. I am not aware of any display in the 70” plus category that meets my quality requirements regardless of price.

Unless something comes out of left field unannounced the most likely contender will come in 12-18 months time from Pioneer in the form of an 80-85” NEO PDP. I hope they can address the dither/PWM noise in Plasma by then and blacks had better be really black, not just a darker shade of grey.

If you have knowledge of such a product please share, by PM if you cant post the info publicly.

[jimval1503562898]

Try viewing your 80cm Sony from 1.5 meters (less for wide screen content) and tell me how great it looks, even the high end HD Sony CRT’s are looking a bid shabby up that close, but that’s the sort of distance you need to view from to really judge quality on a screen that small. On a size corrected basis a good Plasma is way better then an 80cm 4:3 Sony CRT and better then the high end HD wide screen Sony CRT’s as well, IMHO.

I did as you suggested (i.e. 80cm at 1.5m) and I was really hoping you would be right, but my eyes are telling me otherwise.

I.e. the plasmas I have seen thus far just have too much noise for my liking. I'm sure if it was completely removed I would most likely change my opinion.

Is it because I'm accustomed to a CRT picture?

Is a plasma picture something you get used to over time?

Is it because the plasmas are always in a dynamic mode setting in the store?

I'm not sure, but my eyes are telling me my CRT picture looks cleaner, more natural.

Edited December 31, 2008 by jimval

[ugoagogo]

I did as you suggested (i.e. 80cm at 1.5m) and I was really hoping you would be right, but my eyes are telling me otherwise.

I.e. the plasmas I have seen thus far just have too much noise for my liking. I'm sure if it was completely removed I would most likely change my opinion.

Is it because I'm accustomed to a CRT picture?

Is a plasma picture something you get used to over time?

Is it because the plasmas are always in a dynamic mode setting in the store?

I'm not sure, but my eyes are telling me my CRT picture looks cleaner, more natural.

I also think crt was great back then , I presume we are talking about the 100kg 4:3 DRC models.

Although not HD still has a great picture but just not big enough for people today.

Imagine if someone said an 81 or 94cm lcd was $4000 now.

You just have to be the right distance away and most people probably go too big.

[phoenixman78]

It amazes me how people still think these price rises are scare tactics. I had a Sony rep come into my store two weeks ago and announce that in January Sony will be raising the price of their products by 10% and then in February the Bravia range will go up by another 10%. So in total a 20% price increase on the TV range. So if the go price on a 46Z series is $3700 for example than you can add another 20% to make it $4440 after February.

If anyone thinks retailers are rubbing their hands together thinking the price rises will get more money in their pockets than think again. Anyone who thinks business will increase when the prices of your products go up is seriously deluded. A price rise makes my job harder to sell because the same product I was selling not long ago is now more expensive.

One thing to consider is that the amount that TV's have dropped even in the past 2 years has been significant. A 42" HD LCD cost roughly $2999 2 years ago and now the same thing is roughly $1200 to $1400 for a name brand. So in 2 years the price of a 42" HD LCD has dropped by nearly 60%. You now get a 42" Full HD LCD for anwhere between $1500 to $2500 depending on the brand. So a price rise of even 20% now isn't as bad as everyones making out. Hopefully the prices will drop again in the second half of the year.

But seriously this isn't scare tactics, it's for real so you'll just have to deal with it for now.

[xordis]

At the moment, I'm pretty confident I can plonk my 8 year old 80cm 100Hz Sony CRT (their best CRT and $4.5K back then) with no adjustments against any of these sets and it will absolutely lap them in terms

of a TV's most important attribute, PICTURE QUALITY.

I will happily put my 32" (82 cm) Sony Wega back up against the Pioneer 50" kuro I just bought if you want to compare?

I can tell you now the Pioneer is much clearer at almost twice the size.

Yes SD content looks similar, but we are talking an image almost double in size.

I too was a skeptic until I saw the Pioneer set.

The jpeg like pixelation and motion blur that most of the plasma/LCD's show is enough to turn any CRT owner off upgrading for life.

I even got to experience a Sony KDL40XBR (my second choice) for a few hours the other day and im very very glad I didn't have to get one. (being a sony fan I was very disappointed)

[Owen]

I did as you suggested (i.e. 80cm at 1.5m) and I was really hoping you would be right, but my eyes are telling me otherwise.

I have no idea how good your eyes are, but I can clearly see the pixel structure on an 80cm CRT at 1.5 meters, as well as scan lines, convergence errors and ringing, not a good look at all IMHO.

I still have an 86cm wide screen HD CRT in daily use (Rank with Toshiba tube) and I can see the pixels structure on it at 2 meters, which is the normal viewing distance for that set, even though the HD CRT’s have a much finer pixel structure then the big SD sets like the 80cm Sony. The only CRT TV with a finer pixel structure is the top range fine pitch HD Sony sets and they had visible defects at 2 meters or less as well.

I recently replaced my old mans 43cm CRT with a Panasonic 42PX8a Plasma (768p), it is viewed from a little over 2.5 meters and the picture is very good, I would take it over my 86cm HD CRT or any 80cm SD CRT without hesitation.

I.e. the plasmas I have seen thus far just have too much noise for my liking. I'm sure if it was completely removed I would most likely change my opinion.

Is it because I'm accustomed to a CRT picture?

Is a plasma picture something you get used to over time?

Is it because the plasmas are always in a dynamic mode setting in the store?

I'm not sure, but my eyes are telling me my CRT picture looks cleaner, more natural.

Not sure about the 80cm Sony, but most SD CRT TV’s are full analogue (unlike HD CRT sets) and thus add no digital artifacts of their own to the image, this and the fact that the electron beams in your old CRT tube will have lost focus with age (it was never very sharp to begin with) can explain the low noise look you see on it.

Flat panel TV’s are inherently sharp and almost always have sharpness turned up to high by default, they also employ other “picture enhancement” systems that can make the image look harsh noisy and digital. Samsung sets are particularly affected by this but it can generally be fixed or at least improved with proper settings.

Plasma’s use pulse width modulation to control their pixels, this can result in some visible noise in dark shadow areas. It’s not ideal but is generally not a significant problem on the better models. I doubt this is the problem you are seeing.

Unfortunately the technology that produced the least digital looking, cleanest, most noise and artifact free images is no longer available, and it was not CRT.

[jimval1503562898]

I also think crt was great back then , I presume we are talking about the 100kg 4:3 DRC models.

Although not HD still has a great picture but just not big enough for people today.

Imagine if someone said an 81 or 94cm lcd was $4000 now.

You just have to be the right distance away and most people probably go too big.

Correct. It is the 80cm 4:3 DRC model.

Sony KVES34M31

The thing would likely survive a tomahawk in an Iraqi bunker.

http://www.sony.com.au/catalog/product.jsp?id=KVES34M31

[evil_josh]

Mick,

Maybe. But IMO 40% is a bit OTT.

It's the same old story - do you buy now and have the enjoyment of

the product for the intervening period?

- or -

do you wait for the closeout and discontinued model deals,

save a bit of money, and maybe get hit by a bus in the meantime!

With the sort of product we're talking about

early adopters always lose money.

Hell, I don't even want to think about how much

money I've "lost" in ugrading hi-fi and video gear in the

last couple of years.

Hang on a minute, I'll just do a quick tot up:

Panasonic AE2000 Original RRP (NZD) $5499

bought July 08, $4500, now $2999 - AE3000 now RRP $4999

Samsung BDP-1400, bought Nov 07 $550, BDP- 1500 now $499

Sony SXRD 60" bought Dec 06 $5499.00 (discontinued) replaced

with Plasma or LCD

Philips 47" LCD, bought Nov 07 $2999.00 now less than $2000.00

And so I can go on and on.....

It will be very interesting to re-visit this thread in 6 months time.

ha ha good post. here are some of my best:

BigW 32" LCD with stunning 16ms response and eye burning 300:1 contrast $2k in April 2006. Latest BigW LCD is around $600

Apple Cinema display 23" $3500 in 2004. 24" displays from $400 nowadays and I will need to pay $150-ish for a power supply when I eventually ditch the G4 it is connected to

[Zaph]

Correct. It is the 80cm 4:3 DRC model.

Sony KVES34M31

The thing would likely survive a tomahawk in an Iraqi bunker.

http://www.sony.com.au/catalog/product.jsp?id=KVES34M31

I have the same model, all 80+kg's of it - beautiful TV but I'm out looking for a replacement sometime in the next 6 months. I want widescreen, digital tuner, etc - and something that's not life-threatening (literally) to my 3yo

The noise level and mpeg artifacts on current models are part of whats holding me back, but I'm not that anal about it to stop progress.

Zaph

[ageha]

You can't now, of course because Philips no longer sell LCD

TVs in Australasia.

But you can get a 46" Samsung or Sony for that price.

Where? Link?

[jimval1503562898]

Flat panel TV’s are inherently sharp and almost always have sharpness turned up to high by default, they also employ other “picture enhancement” systems that can make the image look harsh noisy and digital. Samsung sets are particularly affected by this but it can generally be fixed or at least improved with proper settings.

Plasma’s use pulse width modulation to control their pixels, this can result in some visible noise in dark shadow areas. It’s not ideal but is generally not a significant problem on the better models. I doubt this is the problem you are seeing.

For me it's all about the noise. This is the main reason I am disappointed with what I have seen thus far in the stores, which is why I keep on harking back to:

Are all these in-store plasmas set up with dynamic mode settings, resulting in the over-sharp harshness of the picture?

You'll note that I am making the comparison of the Sony against the (probably) uncalibrated, (probably) dynamic mode, in-store Plasma panels,

so I am probably seeing plasma panels 'at their worst'.

What I have learnt here is that I need to see a calibrated Plasma taking into consideration the lighting conditions

to get a true indication of the plasmas picture quality.

[crtlover]

Where? Link?

Sigh!!!

Well. Close to that price with haggling.

http://www.jbhifi.com.au/tv-plasma-lcd/hd-tv-1080/

Samsung 550 Series - $2196

Edited December 31, 2008 by crtlover

[ageha]

Sigh!!!

Well. Close to that price with haggling.

http://www.jbhifi.com.au/tv-plasma-lcd/hd-tv-1080/

Samsung 550 Series - $2196

[jimval1503562898]

I have the same model, all 80+kg's of it - beautiful TV but I'm out looking for a replacement sometime in the next 6 months. I want widescreen, digital tuner, etc - and something that's not life-threatening (literally) to my 3yo

The noise level and mpeg artifacts on current models are part of whats holding me back, but I'm not that anal about it to stop progress.

Zaph

It seems Zaph understands the dilemma I have with Plasma noise too.

Yes, 84kgs that produced a truly beautiful picture, the very best that Sony and its Trinitron technology could provide with a price to match.

[Owen]

For me it's all about the noise. This is the main reason I am disappointed with what I have seen thus far in the stores, which is why I keep on harking back to:

Do you see the same noise on the LCD’s?

[Owen]

It seems Zaph understands the dilemma I have with Plasma noise too.

Yes, 84kgs that produced a truly beautiful picture, the very best that Sony and its Trinitron technology could provide with a price to match.

The old SD Sonys where good in their day, but they don’t hold a candle to the fine pitch Sony HD wide screen sets, different league entirely.

Edited January 1, 2009 by Owen

[jimval1503562898]

Do you see the same noise on the LCD’s?

No.

I can only guess it's to do with the in-store ultra-dynamic settings and PWM noise characteristic of plasmas as well as the extremely narrow gap

between the pixels for LCDs when compared to plasmas (so I've read).

I saw the 2 best at Bing Lee, a Samsung 46A950 and the Sony 55XBR45.

After standing in front of the two (side-by-side) for about an hour.

I found them impressive at first particularly the Sony, but then I was starting to notice flaws.

The picture well, just looked artificial. Video-game like. Watching a cartoon.

It is claimed that motion blur isn't a problem with these sets.

I'm not convinced, and sometimes you can see the 'catching up' of a moving object.

The dynamic led lighting just doesn't quite get there for the Samsung.

It's as if you turn the brightness right down and pump the contrast right up.

Plenty of dynamics but you lose detail in the dark or shaded areas and varied for the same object in a pan.

The Sony looked a bit cooler, more natural, and provided greater detail in the dark or shaded areas, but at the end of the day

the picture on a plasma looks like a TV picture, and not a video playing on a computer monitor.

Edited January 1, 2009 by jimval

[Zaph]

The old SD Sonys where good in their day, but they don’t hold a candle to the fine pitch Sony HD wide screen sets, different league entirely.

I think the fact that the CRT TV we have can be run in 1250 line mode (double vertical resolution) is a significant reason that it still holds up today - scanlines are virtually impossible to see, I prefer this mode over the 100hz mode (in which you can see the scanlines)

I've got a 32" Panasonic Viera (720p) for the Xbox360 - the picture on that looks great, has some MPEG issues when playing back high-def video from my Canon HF10. However since this wasn't the primary TV I wasn't as fussed about perfectionism.

Am I having regrets at not grabbing the LG 42LG70YD for $1999 from David Jones earlier this week ? Kind of, because the second 26" bonus deal made it a very tempting offer - but the 9HD signal showing on it was noticably worse than some of the other models around it (which may have been unrelated antenna issues, since it was taking an antenna in and not a feed from another box) so I decided to hold on to the money and see what happens in the next couple of months.

[AndrewW]

Aussie Peso back over US70c this morning (actually 70.8 at the moment)

[ford]

Aussie Peso back over US70c this morning (actually 70.8 at the moment)

Yes NOW is a good time to buy.

Everything is pointing to the au$ going down,and it will,maybe into the 50's in the not to distant future.

Its been a very soft landing so far but is rapidly picking up speed.

HDrocks: On my new nas.

[mcduck]

don't much care about the dollar one way or the other

it's really the bottom line on the best deal i can get when i'm ready

it really is a buzz, that's when the duck gets higher than a kite

but for now, the search has only just begun and i'll be hanging around here for a while

what i'm really after, and unlikely to get is a 32 inch HD plasma

i really don't want an LCD in that room

don't want to risk any blur facture what so ever

no way i'm giving the Mr another thing to whinge about

it has to be 32 inch, measurements restricted and do not want to go to 26 inch if i can help it

[diesel]

what i'm really after, and unlikely to get is a 32 inch HD plasma

I would think it very unlikely.

Currently the 32" plasmas I have seen have only been SD (852x480), and I doubt they will bring out any HD (1024x768) panels in that size in Australia.