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Pioneer 9th Gen Panels Discussion


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I've had the G9 Pioneer for 4 weeks now and its just getting better and better everytime I watch it.

Still to early to do an ISF calibration so I'm just running it in Pure mode.

Initially I thought the 60" was just huge when I unpacked it but its turned out to be perfect size from 2.5m veiwing distance.

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Owen, just a quick question in the hope that you might know the answer. My wife and I may have stupidly sensitive eyes but we see a rainbow like effect in plasmas in some scenes, flashes of yellow, green and tinges of red. I did some research and found that its phosphor lag. I know that plasma's are very different to CRT's but I don't see any such effect with CRT's. My main question is - will I see this with every plasma? Will some be better than others? The Pioneer G8 Kuro's have horrible motion / judder to me, and for me easy to see phosphor lag. Will the G9 or G10's be any different with regards to the phosphor lag?

CRT uses a line scanning system that “refreshes” the Red, Green and Blue sub pixels simultaneously, where as with Plasma the Red, Green and Blue sub pixels may be refreshed sequentially, resulting in susceptible people seeing rainbows or RBE. Manufacturers don’t say how their panels work so they may not all be the same now or in the future.

Single chip DLP projectors also display colours sequentially so if you see rainbows on them (as some people do) it’s a reasonable bet that’s the problem.

Phosphor lag is a different issue, Red, Green and Blue phosphors have different persistence or decay time, with blue being very fast and red the slowest. This used to cause very noticeable problems in older Plasma’s but not so much now as faster phosphors are used together with faster refresh cycles. The colours still have different decay rates so some people may be able to see it on some fast moving content.

CRT had the same problem with different decay rates for each colour but know one seemed to notice any ill effects, for that reason its more likely a sequential colour problem.

It’s quite likely different models will behave differentially, how your eyes will respond to G9 or G10 panels is anyone’s guess.

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I've had the G9 Pioneer for 4 weeks now and its just getting better and better everytime I watch it.

Still to early to do an ISF calibration so I'm just running it in Pure mode.

Initially I thought the 60" was just huge when I unpacked it but its turned out to be perfect size from 2.5m veiwing distance.

Yes, 60” is a good size for 2.5 meters, but for those of us that sit further back a larger screen is required. Where is the 80” Pioneer?

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It does not matter how good a plasma is, burn in is still a big issue for me. Plasma panels need constant attention and caring otherwise you'll get "burn in" issue. When will this so called "burn in" be elminated from plasma panels.

David

Not the case with new screens. I've used my plasma without any attention to avoiding burn-in & I've had no problems. Probably only a concern now for gamers who might have static areas on the screen for hours on end.

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CRT uses a line scanning system that "refreshes" the Red, Green and Blue sub pixels simultaneously, where as with Plasma the Red, Green and Blue sub pixels may be refreshed sequentially, resulting in susceptible people seeing rainbows or RBE. Manufacturers don't say how their panels work so they may not all be the same now or in the future.

Single chip DLP projectors also display colours sequentially so if you see rainbows on them (as some people do) it's a reasonable bet that's the problem.

Phosphor lag is a different issue, Red, Green and Blue phosphors have different persistence or decay time, with blue being very fast and red the slowest. This used to cause very noticeable problems in older Plasma's but not so much now as faster phosphors are used together with faster refresh cycles. The colours still have different decay rates so some people may be able to see it on some fast moving content.

CRT had the same problem with different decay rates for each colour but know one seemed to notice any ill effects, for that reason its more likely a sequential colour problem.

It's quite likely different models will behave differentially, how your eyes will respond to G9 or G10 panels is anyone's guess.

Cheers. Bugger. Doesn't leave me with many options in my price range at the moment.

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It does not matter how good a plasma is, burn in is still a big issue for me. Plasma panels need constant attention and caring otherwise you'll get "burn in" issue. When will this so called "burn in" be elminated from plasma panels.

David

I used triple gun CRT projection displays with a HTPC daily for years without problems and they are more susceptible to burn in then any Plasma. I was careful and used a screen saver.

If you are not prepared to make any effort to be at least sensible in the way the TV is used and must have a glaringly bright display Plasma is not for you. The alternative is an LCD that will look less then best its entire life.

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there are people in the UK (at avforums ) who have seen the LX509 alongside the KRP models and they swear there is a difference- less PWM noise for example. One of their trusted reviewers noted this too

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Well in the past monitors have always looked better than the ones with built in analogue & digital tuners but the point to remember, is there a decent HD STB that will make the KRP FTA performance better than the built in tuner of the LX models unless someone is saying the screen/glass/electronics is different!

cheers laurie

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It’s my hope that PWM noise can be eliminated in G10, its getting better with each gen but has been an issue with Plasma since day one.

Edited by Owen
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these plasmas definitely look nice. might look at getting a 500 model if they aren't too badly priced. but i do have the thought back of my mind that i want abigger screen and the G10s will be out next year which i might be better placed to get a 60 or 70" then.

LG 1080p for $2k at JB :P

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A 768 50" Panasonic for $1600 beats the crap out of the 1080 LG unless you view from less then 2.5 meters in MHO.

Edited by Owen
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I just bought a Pioneer 60" 609A on Monday. I got it for $8,500. It didn't take much haggling. They started by dropping the price form 10,999 (RRP) to 8,999 just to get a sale. I offered 8,500 and they said yes instantly.

I am fairly happy with it so far. The start up time is a bit anoying, (about 5 seconds) and the EPG is a bit slow, but the picture quality is great.

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I just bought a Pioneer 60" 609A on Monday. I got it for $8,500. It didn't take much haggling. They started by dropping the price form 10,999 (RRP) to 8,999 just to get a sale. I offered 8,500 and they said yes instantly.

I am fairly happy with it so far. The start up time is a bit anoying, (about 5 seconds) and the EPG is a bit slow, but the picture quality is great.

Where at?.

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A 768 50" Panasonic for $1600 beats the crap out of the 1080 LG unless you view from less then 2.5 meters in MHO.

A bit extreme. The latest LG plasma PG70fd is as good as the Pana PX80A except for the new fad of shinier screens to increase the black level,oddly called an anti-reflective layer.

The PX80A Panasonic is the last of the anti-glare Panasonics and is a better buy for that reason alone. It is unfortunately quite ugly in my opinion.

I wish I'd bought a Pana PZ700A because the mirror finish is taking over for most manufacturers.

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Black levels on the LG are not in Panasonic class, but you won’t see it in a normal show room environment.

Plasma’s need a tinted or light absorbing layer in front of the phosphor, over wise the room lighting will reflect off the phosphor and degrade black level in a lit environment.

Personally I think the high gloss screen gives a significantly better image. Anti reflective screens give the image a flat 2d look which I’m not keen on. Lived with both and much prefer the high gloss screen, but I don’t have reflection problems to worry about.

The old PZ700 had pretty dreadful blacks, significantly worse then the 768p 6 series or 7 series, the PZ800 is much better.

Edited by Owen
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Black levels on the LG are not in Panasonic class, but you won’t see it in a normal show room environment.

Plasma’s need a tinted or light absorbing layer in front of the phosphor, over wise the room lighting will reflect off the phosphor and degrade black level in a lit environment.

Personally I think the high gloss screen gives a significantly better image. Anti reflective screens give the image a flat 2d look which I’m not keen on. Lived with both and much prefer the high gloss screen, but I don’t have reflection problems to worry about.

The old PZ700 had pretty dreadful blacks, significantly worse then the 768p 6 series or 7 series, the PZ800 is much better.

I don't dare to say both are on the same level but my eye cannot see the black level difference on the show floor. :) I saw only Shrek The Third and Open Season 1 on both of them side by side. I adjusted the image parameters on both and they looked pretty much the same to my eye although the Panas seem to ship with a more saturated output. I think the Pana PZ800 has a pretty horrible black level if you turn the brightness over 50%. Also whites always have a hint of beige. Maybe it's better in a dark room. I don't know but when I watch a movie I rarely have theater conditions.

Edited by ageha
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First of all you need to audition using a movie with night scenes and a dim viewing environment that would be typically used viewing of movies in a home environment, a dark room is not requires as not even a Pioneer Kuro can do black in a dark room.

The LG’s have black levels similar to a Panasonic from 3 years ago, that’s NOT good.

The brightness control should be adjusted to give the darkest blacks with a video black input (digital level 16). The black level that can be achieved is dependent on the display, and that varies significantly from good on a Kuro to poor an LG. Black level on a Panasonic is at least twice as low as the LG’s. I personally don’t think even the even Panasonics are anything like good enough, but I’m fussy. :D

Edited by Owen
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I'm in the market for a new full hd panel now, well within the next month. I'm trying to decide between the Pana 58" and a Pio 60". I currently have a 50" Pana (1366x768). Regards these 9th gen Pio panels, is it the next gen, (10th Gen), that is going to made by Panasonic? Whats everyones thoughts? I'm sure you all have some :) Buy a panel now? Wait until Pio and Pana merge? Is quality going to go up when they merge? Down? Any thoughts appreciated...

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well around september 09 we may see the new panasonic plasma's -Plasma Neo

they have full 1080 line motion resolution (current plasmas are around 900 lines of motion resolution)

better blacks

better on electricity usage

the next generation Pioneers (10 g) will have the glass made by panasonic china with the driving circuits made by pioneer

in a few weeks all the new models , and all their specs, will be announced at CES (consumer electronics show)

buy now or play the waiting game?? ill let someone else answer that one

retail sales are falling off a cliff worldwide so I wouldnt be surprised if there were aggressive price cuts in next few months

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The G10 Pioneers made by Panasonic will be the best Plasma’s ever, but they are at least a year away.

Don’t expect price cuts in the near future, if anything prices will go up before they come down.

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The G10 Pioneers made by Panasonic will be the best Plasma’s ever, but they are at least a year away.

Don’t expect price cuts in the near future, if anything prices will go up before they come down.

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i had ordered a lx508 from myers back in november but they could not confirm delivery time, so i back out of sale.... which is good because i ordered a lx609 from bing lee at bankstown for $8500 plus $45 for delivery..... i think they are working off the old pricing

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The G10 Pioneers made by Panasonic will be the best Plasma’s ever, but they are at least a year away.

Don’t expect price cuts in the near future, if anything prices will go up before they come down.

how good do you think the panasonic neos will be compared to G10 Pio's?

I also think, if the factory is in china, that shouldn't be a worry. as the QA will no doubt still be held under strict japanese Pio style, which seems to be the problem with lots of cheaper chinese products.

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how good do you think the panasonic neos will be compared to G10 Pio's?

Nobody, and I mean nobody, knows the answer to that as no one anywhere has seen anything of them yet. Any comparison between the two is purely speculation at the moment...

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