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Why Is Digital So Crap And Problematic


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So sick of problems with digital transmissions.

Seems all i ever do is complain about problems on this forum or upgrade firmware on my 2 PVRs, TV etc. Why can't broadcasters get their **** together?

So far pretty much all channels have had a problem most of them seem to be related to the broadcaster.

1. ABC sound fluctuations, firmware upgrade on panel seems to have fixed.

2. SBS voice sync problems.

3. CH 90 voice sync problems - on going for over a month, not fixed yet.

4. CH 10 - volume fluctuations - no idea what's happening with this.

Apart from combing and macro blocking artefacts during footy there's the occasional good HD quality show but the majority of dramas out there at the moment outweigh all good broadcasts.

Sick of it.

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Hello,

Just registered and my first post. I only hope it is in the right part of the site!!

My frustration is largely with the weather. My Wintal TV normally brings in all the Brisbane TV channels (except 31) perfectly well. BUT... if it gets foggy then channels 7 and 9 get flaky. If it actually rains even lightly, these channels disappear completely and SBS gets pixelated, channel 10 might too. ABC shines through at all times.

I am in effective line of sight of the transmission towers at Mt Coot Tha but do admit to an external antenna which is about 18 years old.

This weather phenomenon has probably been aired here many times and I apologise if I needlessly raise the subject again but my, perhaps clumsy, search of the site did not dredge up anything I could identify with.

Sage advice will be very welcome.

Pomozwi

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I am in effective line of sight of the transmission towers at Mt Coot Tha but do admit to an external antenna which is about 18 years old.

The antenna is the likely suspect.

It probably has rusted/corroded terminals where the coax connects.

Antennas of that age were not designed to provide optimum performance on digital channels (they didn't exist then).

The coax itself (if it's a similar age) has also probably perished.

Water/moisture on poor connections/cabling can cause loss of signal.

Time to replace the antenna and coax I would think.

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Hello Thudabot

With you being so certain that your home system is fine after being checked and rechecked, it seems logical that all the television networks have got together in response to your complaints and are sending a CVNS in your direction. It seems likely they have tuned their transmitting antenna to send this complex varying nulling signal (CVNS) and this has only become possible since the introduction of DTV in Australia. By cyclicly varying the group delay response through negative rotation on each transmitting panel 180 degrees out of phase with the plate voltage the resulting differential gain is likely to be the cause of your blocking and sync issues, mainly in HD and in a lesser extent in SD due to the reflections.

It's just so wrong.

Cheers

James

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Hello Thudabot

With you being so certain that your home system is fine after being checked and rechecked, it seems logical that all the television networks have got together in response to your complaints and are sending a CVNS in your direction. It seems likely they have tuned their transmitting antenna to send this complex varying nulling signal (CVNS) and this has only become possible since the introduction of DTV in Australia. By cyclicly varying the group delay response through negative rotation on each transmitting panel 180 degrees out of phase with the plate voltage the resulting differential gain is likely to be the cause of your blocking and sync issues, mainly in HD and in a lesser extent in SD due to the reflections.

It's just so wrong.

Cheers

James

Had the same problem, d/loaded a firmware up grade no more(cvns) problems.

www.iamawoodduck.com

cvns.zip

Crusty

Edited by crusty
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pomozwi, welcome to the forum.

I agree with mtv. The damp weather seems to be badly affecting your signal. And your antenna setup does seem very old.

Re new posts, ref my sig below. Also in the sig are some links to some documents that will give you a better understanding of what is required for successful digital reception. Skim the more detailed technical parts if you like :).

Edited by charlesc
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...but the majority of dramas out there at the moment outweigh all good broadcasts.

I think many of the dramas that people are reporting on these forums tend to relate to

  • HD content
  • Some sort of standards issue (with HD?) at either the transmission or receiving end
  • The audio content (mainly with HD - level changes, missing channels with multi-channel)

And I think quite few might be combinations of the above.

Having said that, there do seem to be quite a few changes going on with WIN's HD transmissions at the moment, and that's quite validly frustrating a lot of people. Time will tell where the problem(s) lie, but in the meantime, as consumers, the way it is being handled is very poor. There's nothing more frustrating than being given the run around.

At the moment though, the largest part of digital reception households are still on SD, and probably aren't even aware of many of the issues being discussed here.

Edited by charlesc
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Hello Thudabot

With you being so certain that your home system is fine after being checked and rechecked, it seems logical that all the television networks have got together in response to your complaints and are sending a CVNS in your direction. It seems likely they have tuned their transmitting antenna to send this complex varying nulling signal (CVNS) and this has only become possible since the introduction of DTV in Australia. By cyclicly varying the group delay response through negative rotation on each transmitting panel 180 degrees out of phase with the plate voltage the resulting differential gain is likely to be the cause of your blocking and sync issues, mainly in HD and in a lesser extent in SD due to the reflections.

It's just so wrong.

Cheers

James

I'm sorry but I don't know what to make of this post. Are you being serious or sarcastic?

It seems that almost all channels are being aftected by some sympton at one time or another.

Never happened with analogue.

I mean the US has a large portion of broadcasting in HD, why can they do it and Australia can't?

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I'm sorry but I don't know what to make of this post. Are you being serious or sarcastic?

He is clearly having a lend of you !

I found it quite funny, then again it isn't given the state of affairs at the moment.

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Having said that, there do seem to be quite a few changes going on with WIN's HD transmissions at the moment, and that's quite validly frustrating a lot of people.

The only changes that have gone on WRT to WIN's transmission is the recent change made to 9 in Perth. What the citizens of Perth are now experiencing is what all the rest of WIN viewers have been afflicted with since day one. WIN HD has been a basket case since it started.

A selection of the issues that can be seen daily are:

  • amazingly crappy video quality
  • poor audio sync
  • audio coming and going as it pleases
  • a huge blue blot to cover up 9's 'watermark'
  • complete inability to have any sort of synchronisation between 9 and WIN - 'ad breaks' cut in and out almost totally out of sync with the program content, large chunks of the start of programs can be dropped completely instead showing the demo loop, promos fade in and out during the program content.
  • loud audio clicks when switching to / from 'ad breaks'
  • video stutters back and forth, picture tears and all manner of nasties happen when switching to / from 'ad breaks'

No doubt there are other defects that can be found too. Loose synchronisation with 9 also happens on WIN SD. WIN must use 'Seldom Sync' branded automation.

WIN? No way, it should be called LOSE. WIN viewers should give up and watch channel BT if they want to see any of the programming on WIN HD.

Edited by DrP
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A selection of the issues that can be seen daily are:
  • amazingly crappy video quality
  • poor audio sync
  • audio coming and going as it pleases
  • a huge blue blot to cover up 9's 'watermark'
  • complete inability to have any sort of synchronisation between 9 and WIN - 'ad breaks' cut in and out almost totally out of sync with the program content, large chunks of the start of programs can be dropped completely instead showing the demo loop, promos fade in and out during the program content.
  • loud audio clicks when switching to / from 'ad breaks'
  • video stutters back and forth, picture tears and all manner of nasties happen when switching to / from 'ad breaks'

What a mess. Not something any broadcaster should be proud about.

As a matter of interest, how many of the above occur on the SD stream as well?

... Loose synchronisation with 9 also happens on WIN SD.

That refers to the interleaving of the ad breaks, doesn't it?

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SD only really suffers from WIN's Seldom Sync automation system - poor timing of ad insertion etc but no where near as badly as HD does. Although when I was watching it at times the video wasn't that impressive - especially when one considers that WIN's SD is about 7Mbit/sec. At that sort of rate it should be close to perfect.

Maybe WIN should consider hiring some on a 'work for the dole' program and get them to sit watching the HD feed from 9 all day and press a button to switch to / from ad breaks - it couldn't be worse than what is going to air at the moment.

Edited by DrP
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SD only really suffers from WIN's Seldom Sync automation system - poor timing of ad insertion etc.

It's not always easy to identify if posters with problems are talking about the SD or HD streams. Many just say channel xx is having a problem with the video/audio.

As mentioned earlier, I think the base SD stream in general behaves OK. Most problems seem to be on the HD stream(s).

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Hello Thudabot

Yes sorry, it was pure sarcasm before.

I just couldn't help myself. It's somewhere between frustrating and laughable the number of times a new technology especially a digital one is released as the answer for all problems and it is generally accepted by the public and all that happens is a new variety of issues are created.

DVB-T permits networks to fiddle and fiddle they do. They add to and take from the streams they send to the transmitters all the time, even the transmitters complain, generate alarms and sometimes shut down.

One day the networks will smarten up and realise that there are so many varieties of receivers with such a wide variety of reactions to change that they will stop meddling.

All you can do is complain loud and long and not here on this forum, very few network people take this forum seriously.

All sarcasm aside, write a letter to the offending network and send a copy to the ACMA. When the ACMA receive a bundle of complaints they will send a please explain to the offending network.

Cheers

James

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I live in an apartment Wollongong and I'm thinking of getting a signal booster or amplifier.

My local stations seem to be fine - but the Sydney stations which broadcast in HD alwaays (which I want) seem to break up every now and then - not badly but enough to annoy. i'm hoping the amplifier can just plug into my wall socket as i dont have access to the main aerial.

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I live in an apartment Wollongong

...the Sydney stations which broadcast in HD alwaays (which I want) seem to break up every now and then

...as i dont have access to the main aerial.

So how are you receiving the Sydney channels in Wollongong now? Through an indoor antenna!

Sydney channels in Wollongong are certainly possible with a bit of care, but typically this would be with an external antenna system.

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pomozwi, welcome to the forum.

I agree with mtv. The damp weather seems to be badly affecting your signal. And your antenna setup does seem very old.

Re new posts, ref my sig below. Also in the sig are some links to some documents that will give you a better understanding of what is required for successful digital reception. Skim the more detailed technical parts if you like :).

My apologies for the late response to the above. I had followed AlanH's suggestion that I stick to the Brisbane page, so failed to see yor and mtv's suggestions. My sincere thanks to you both.

I have read the links given by you Charlesc and learned much. Could you speculate on the observation that I get good reception on my analogue TV and good dry weather performance on my new digital set but generally poor aqnalogue reception on the digital receiver no matter what the weather.

My thanks again

pomozwi

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I have read the links given by you Charlesc and learned much.

Good, that is what they are there for. :) I do believe there is some good information in there.

Could you speculate on the observation that I get good reception on my analogue TV and good dry weather performance on my new digital set but generally poor aqnalogue reception on the digital receiver no matter what the weather.

I'm presuming by "poor analogue reception on the digital receiver" you are meaning analogue reception on your 'digital' TV (analogue and digital tuner)?

As they are different TVs, they would have to be on different splitters/cables within the house. I wonder if they would perform the same way if they were connected in turn to each other's normal TV outlet? That probably wouldn't be practical because of the problems moving them.

Maybe the distribution cabling/system has some moisture problems. Do you know how the cabling/splitters/amps etc. run from the antenna down to the various outlets that the TVs are connected to?

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Good, that is what they are there for. :) I do believe there is some good information in there.

I'm presuming by "poor analogue reception on the digital receiver" you are meaning analogue reception on your 'digital' TV (analogue and digital tuner)?

As they are different TVs, they would have to be on different splitters/cables within the house. I wonder if they would perform the same way if they were connected in turn to each other's normal TV outlet? That probably wouldn't be practical because of the problems moving them.

Maybe the distribution cabling/system has some moisture problems. Do you know how the cabling/splitters/amps etc. run from the antenna down to the various outlets that the TVs are connected to?

Apologies for being so sparing in detail. I got good reception (some ghosting) via the analogue TV I have had for many years. When I got a digital set I shut down the analogue one altogether and plugged in the digital one to the same wall plate so there is no signal splitting between the two. Perhaps it is also relevant that I feed the signal to the digital set via a DvD recorder/player as I did with the old analogue set.

pomozwi

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Apologies for being so sparing in detail. I got good reception (some ghosting) via the analogue TV I have had for many years. When I got a digital set I shut down the analogue one altogether and plugged in the digital one to the same wall plate so there is no signal splitting between the two. Perhaps it is also relevant that I feed the signal to the digital set via a DvD recorder/player as I did with the old analogue set.

Understand now. :)

If you feed the signal in directly, I think it would be safe to assume that you would be giving the digital receiver more signal. Perhaps see what happens when you do that the next time there are problems.

..I get good reception on my analogue TV and good dry weather performance on my new digital set but generally poor aqnalogue reception on the digital receiver no matter what the weather

"My Wintal TV normally brings in all the Brisbane TV channels (except 31) perfectly well. BUT... if it gets foggy then channels 7 and 9 get flaky. If it actually rains even lightly, these channels disappear completely and SBS gets pixelated, channel 10 might too. ABC shines through at all times."

"I get good reception on my analogue TV"

OK, good analogue TV all the time then (apart from ghosting)

"good dry weather performance on my new digital set"

OK, good digital TV in dry weather.

"generally poor aqnalogue reception on the digital receiver no matter what the weather"

This is not too clear. Do you mean the TV you have has a digital and analogue tuner, and you are talking about the analogue reception of your digital TV? The Wintal TV has a different tuner than your old analogue TV. Tuners perform in different ways, some may be better in certain situations than others.

Digital transmissions are at a lower level than analogue anyway, that is a characteristic of them. This may be one reason your digital reception could be failing in wet weather whereas analogue may have worked.

If your antenna and cabling is 18 years old, that has got to be a prime suspect area, as noted previously.

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Good, that is what they are there for. :) I do believe there is some good information in there.

I'm presuming by "poor analogue reception on the digital receiver" you are meaning analogue reception on your 'digital' TV (analogue and digital tuner)?

As they are different TVs, they would have to be on different splitters/cables within the house. I wonder if they would perform the same way if they were connected in turn to each other's normal TV outlet? That probably wouldn't be practical because of the problems moving them.

Maybe the distribution cabling/system has some moisture problems. Do you know how the cabling/splitters/amps etc. run from the antenna down to the various outlets that the TVs are connected to?

Apologies for being so sparing in detail. I got good reception (some ghosting) via the analogue TV I have had for many years. When I got a digital set I shut down the analogue one altogether and plugged in the digital one to the same wall plate so there is no signal splitting between the two. Perhaps it is also relevant that I feed the signal to the digital set via a DvD recorder/player as I did with the old analogue set.

pomozwi

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I feed the signal to the digital set via a DvD recorder/player as I did with the old analogue set.

Connecting an antenna to a digital tuner via other devices first (like your DVD recorder) often causes problems.

For best results, an antenna should be connected directly to the digital tuner, then from the digital receiver to the DVD recorder.

If your digital tuner does not have provision to 'loop through' the antenna signals, then use a splitter from the wall outlet.

Try connecting your antenna directly to the tv/digital tuner and see if it helps.

Ghosting on analogue presents itself as errors in digital signals, causing bit errors to increase and signal 'quality' to drop.... which can result in loss of reception.

If this is the case, relocation and/or replacement of the antenna is recommended, which needs to be done with the aid of a digital field strength meter/analyser to obtain the best possible results.

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  • 3 weeks later...
Connecting an antenna to a digital tuner via other devices first (like your DVD recorder) often causes problems.

For best results, an antenna should be connected directly to the digital tuner, then from the digital receiver to the DVD recorder.

If your digital tuner does not have provision to 'loop through' the antenna signals, then use a splitter from the wall outlet.

Try connecting your antenna directly to the tv/digital tuner and see if it helps.

Ghosting on analogue presents itself as errors in digital signals, causing bit errors to increase and signal 'quality' to drop.... which can result in loss of reception.

If this is the case, relocation and/or replacement of the antenna is recommended, which needs to be done with the aid of a digital field strength meter/analyser to obtain the best possible results.

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I had great SBS, ABC, NBN & TEN reception and really bad PRIME prior to going digital.

Now SBS is shocking if there at all, the ABC comes & goes, while PRIME, NBN & TEN are great.

The anoying thing is that ABC & SBS are the main chanels I watch.

Any suggestions?

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Connecting an antenna to a digital tuner via other devices first (like your DVD recorder) often causes problems.

For best results, an antenna should be connected directly to the digital tuner, then from the digital receiver to the DVD recorder.

Sorry not to have thanked you all for more recent advice. I have been away and much tied up with non TV matters.

Yesterday I did try connecting antenna direct to the digital TV with a curious result. ABC (both), 7, 10 and SBS were OK. Channel 9 however would not show. All I got was a single word "Encrypted". Minor pages such as programme guides also failed to show. Re-routed via the DVD recorder and all OK again (perfect Brisbane weather mind you).

I got a lot of this "encrypted" message in country towns when I was using the Wintal digital set in my caravan but none of the electronics businesses I consulted then could explain the phenomenon. It certainly has not happened before in Brisbane.

pomozwi

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Connecting an antenna to a digital tuner via other devices first (like your DVD recorder) often causes problems.

For best results, an antenna should be connected directly to the digital tuner, then from the digital receiver to the DVD recorder.

Sorry not to have thanked you all for more recent advice. I have been away and much tied up with non TV matters.

Yesterday I did try connecting antenna direct to the digital TV with a curious result. ABC (both), 7, 10 and SBS were OK. Channel 9 however would not show. All I got was a single word "Encrypted". Minor pages such as programme guides also failed to show. Re-routed via the DVD recorder and all OK again (perfect Brisbane weather mind you).

I got a lot of this "encrypted" message in country towns when I was using the Wintal digital set in my caravan but none of the electronics businesses I consulted then could explain the phenomenon. It certainly has not happened before in Brisbane.

pomozwi

there's no encryption taking place, I suggest replacing the STB.

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there's no encryption taking place, I suggest replacing the STB.

Sorry, no set top box involved. This is a digital TV of the LCD variety.

what is the model no. of this LCD TV?

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what is the model no. of this LCD TV?

Digitalj,

Thanks for your interest. Model number for this Wintal set is WLD 1948.

A considerable irritant is that the accompanying "manuals" are very brief, written in Chinglish and replete with strings of letters and acronyms which presuppose high level training in state of the art electronics. The only recourse for help is to call a Melbourne number where one gets very friendly assistance. Trouble is I am 2000 km away and my mind is an electronic wasteland. Hence my seeking the help of the good folk here.

This query re "encryption" is to try to get some understanding of what is wrong. I still have to follow up previous advice re the state of my antenna and cabling.

pomozwi

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