When Is Hd Really Hd

[Blackman1503561291]

I can't give details myself as I don't have the equipment, but to the best of my knowledge, it's something like the following:

ABC HD 720px1280 @ ~9Mbps

Seven HD 1080ix1920 @ ~13.5Mbps

NINE HD 1080ix1440 @ ~13Mbps

TEN HD 1080ix1920 @ ~16Mbps

SBS 'HD' 576px720 @ ~7Mbps

SD Channels vary between 5Mbps and 7Mbps

Thanks!

Now this paints a better picture.

[Hosko]

I can't give details myself as I don't have the equipment, but to the best of my knowledge, it's something like the following:

ABC HD 720px1280 @ ~9Mbps

Seven HD 1080ix1920 @ ~13.5Mbps

NINE HD 1080ix1440 @ ~13Mbps

TEN HD 1080ix1920 @ ~16Mbps

SBS 'HD' 576px720 @ ~7Mbps

SD Channels vary between 5Mbps and 7Mbps

I think you have 10HD a little too high, well at least here in Sydney.

[digitalj]

I think you have 10HD a little too high, well at least here in Sydney.

as I said, I don't have anything to measure bitrates and so just gave measurements close to the maximum that gets used.

[Hosko]

as I said, I don't have anything to measure bitrates and so just gave measurements close to the maximum that gets used.

The average is probably better to go off.

[Autocrat]

Mate, HD TV is not broadcast in 1080. Thats why TV's that are not full 1080 say HD TV Ready or certified. Only PS3 and BlueRay Players and discs are 1080. So you really only should buy a full 1080 Tv if you are getting into HD blueray or PS3. Otherwise, TV is HD at 576, do you get it now? It's all a bit confusing.

Must work at Harvey Norman.

[darockk]

"When Is Hd Really Hd, not just because it is advertised as such"

Whenever the program looks awesome, its in HD.

I can normally see the difference straight away, without having to check bitrates or such...

[Dr. Zachary Smith]

All,

A lot of programs shown are PAL or even worse NTSC orginals. They end up with a riggling grey line around any sharp highly coloured edges.

The name of the multiplex is #HD does not indicate the quality of the original. Sometimes the networks will advertise an individual program is in HD then it is worth checking out.

AlanH

Amen to that! I have been watching HD broadcasts on a HD panel (mine, and my neighbor's set) for quite a while now. I'll probably get shot down in flames by other members for what I am about to type, but here goes... Some of the networks should hang their heads in shame for the crappy PQ they are spitting out. IMHO, SBS as received here in Melbourne is the worst when it comes to the PQ of studio/locally videotaped productions. Even news broadcasts from all networks have PQ that varies from excellent (studio head shots) to woeful (OBs from various locations). Last night's State of Origin Rugby was very hard to watch. I then checked the PQ on my neighbor's set and another CRT WS set (with HDbox) I have in my bedroom. The PQ was terrible on all the sets and I live in a good broadcast signal area! The cricket from India on TenHD wasn't much better.

Perhaps the networks should invest in new cameras and OB van equipment.

Edited May 21, 2008 by Dr. Zachary Smith

[jumbuck1503560246]

HD is not always HD. Even if the station has the show on its HD station. Take sunrise on ch7 on station 70.

CH70 is not really HD

CH10 on its HD station Ch:12 do broadcast as described.

CH 12 = 10HD

Edited May 22, 2008 by dewa

[SteveBuscemi]

HD is not always HD. Even if the station has the show on its HD station. Take sunrise on ch7 on station 70.

CH70 is not really HD

And what we're saying is, yes, HD is always HD, as far as the broadcast resolution is concerned. (Which is not the same as the native resolution of the content being displayed).

Given a 1080i broadcast, there is no way of your set top box knowing that the content being displayed was original 720p, or 576i, or 576p, or 480i, etc.

7HD is always broadcast 1080i, not 576i*. If you're seeing 576i there is something seriously wrong with your equipment or setup.

*7 used to switch off the HD channel during sports events to allocate more bitrate to the SD stream. At this point 70 read "7 SD Digital" rather than "7 HD Digital". AFAIK they don't still do this, but the fact remains that if the channel name says HD (or you're seeing the 7HD watermark), it's 1080i.

Either:

a) Your STB/receiver/whatever is downscaling the 1080i to 576i

Your channel mappings are screwed up and 7HD is pointing to the SD video stream (easily proved false by the presence of the 7HD watermark)

c) Its source resolution data is just plain wrong

Edited May 22, 2008 by SteveBuscemi

[dunnas]

Amen to that! I have been watching HD broadcasts on a HD panel (mine, and my neighbor's set) for quite a while now. I'll probably get shot down in flames by other members for what I am about to type, but here goes... Some of the networks should hang their heads in shame for the crappy PQ they are spitting out. IMHO, SBS as received here in Melbourne is the worst when it comes to the PQ of studio/locally videotaped productions. Even news broadcasts from all networks have PQ that varies from excellent (studio head shots) to woeful (OBs from various locations). Last night's State of Origin Rugby was very hard to watch. I then checked the PQ on my neighbor's set and another CRT WS set (with HDbox) I have in my bedroom. The PQ was terrible on all the sets and I live in a good broadcast signal area! The cricket from India on TenHD wasn't much better.

Perhaps the networks should invest in new cameras and OB van equipment.

1. SBS's HD channel is the only one that doesn't broadcast a HD signal.

2. Being in a good broadcast area does not make the picture quality of a digital channel any better. It will just minimise any occasional pixelation/sound problems.

3. I only caught a little bit of the Rugby last night but I did notice straight away that it looked pretty terrible.

Edited May 22, 2008 by dunnas

[digitalj]

Amen to that! I have been watching HD broadcasts on a HD panel (mine, and my neighbor's set) for quite a while now. I'll probably get shot down in flames by other members for what I am about to type, but here goes... Some of the networks should hang their heads in shame for the crappy PQ they are spitting out. IMHO, SBS as received here in Melbourne is the worst when it comes to the PQ of studio/locally videotaped productions. Even news broadcasts from all networks have PQ that varies from excellent (studio head shots) to woeful (OBs from various locations). Last night's State of Origin Rugby was very hard to watch. I then checked the PQ on my neighbor's set and another CRT WS set (with HDbox) I have in my bedroom. The PQ was terrible on all the sets and I live in a good broadcast signal area! The cricket from India on TenHD wasn't much better.

Perhaps the networks should invest in new cameras and OB van equipment.

SBS 'HD' is 576px720

ABC HD is 720px1280

7HD/10HD are 1080ix1920

9HD is 1080ix1440

SD is 576ix720

SBS SD tends to always look better than SBS HD due to all SBS content being Bob de-interlaced SD.

When it comes to the State of Origin, I think Melbourne was just unlucky, the PQ was good in Sydney.

[sold]

I can't give details myself as I don't have the equipment, but to the best of my knowledge, it's something like the following:

For Adelaide the figures are:

ABC HD - 1280*720p - 9.81Mb/s

Seven HD - 1920*1080i - 13.84Mb/s

Nine HD - 1440*1080i - 15.53Mb/s

Ten HD - 1920*1080i - ~16.30Mb/s (it's stat muxed so it varies slightly)

Those are video only.

[Hosko]

Perhaps the networks should invest in new cameras and OB van equipment.

Its not the on site equipment, its the links that are the problem. That's why a sport might look fine in one city and complete crap in another.

[jumbuck1503560246]

t, there is no way of your set top box knowing that the content being displayed was original 720p, or 576i, or 576p, or 480i, etc.

7HD is always broadcast 1080i, not 576i*. If you're seeing 576i there is something seriously wrong with your equipment or setup.

how about this... you are wrong, someone else has better equipment than you and put the facts there for you to see but you are still in denial.

obviously i must have photoshopped it, can i really be bothered with this ???

[tonymy01]

how about this... you are wrong, someone else has better equipment than you and put the facts there for you to see but you are still in denial.

obviously i must have photoshopped it, can i really be bothered with this ???

What the hell are you on about? Since many many months ago, Seven HD is broadcast at 1080i. There is no way in the world that a STB or anything else for that matter can detect "ok, the broadcast is 1080i but I can see the content is upscaled 576i/p". The only way to tell is normally your eyes, seeing the resolution reduction for upscaled video. There is nothing special about upscaled video that makes it different to native video. For all intents and purposes, the physical pixel resolution is 1080i, just "a bit more soft looking than native HD".

As has been said a number of times, Seven does spring the HD channel back to 576i on the rare occasion for a sporting event that may not have HD OB equipment, well, at least they did do this a while back, but everytime I saw them do this, they would redirect everything to the SD PIDs and that included the channel name (but the LCN was still 70). Some STBs are very well built to the standards and may not properly support the PID redirection and may attempt to keep displaying "7 HD" for the channel name, who knows?

Judging by the image you have above, your STB is upscaling to 1080, so this is what the "output" bit means. Either your STB hasn't been scanned properly and your LCNs are all mucked up, or 7HD rolled back to SD on the day you took that capture (maintenance or whatever perhaps). If this is the case 24x7 for you now, then definitely remove all Seven channels from your box/card/setup and rescan (and don't just rescan, many STBs will only make changes if they see new channels, leaving the existing ones intact. e.g when ABC moved the LCN from 21 to 22 for ABC2, many STBs didn't pick up this change until ABC2 was deleted from the list of channels and then the box rescanned).

You are just making yourself look like a complete fool with your silly arguments!

edit: actually, anyone that watches Sunrise here? I think those morning shows are true HD source anyway!

Regards

[BlueDusk]

how about this... you are wrong, someone else has better equipment than you and put the facts there for you to see but you are still in denial.

obviously i must have photoshopped it, can i really be bothered with this ???

Dewa, what SteveBuscemi is correct. The output on Seven HD's service is always 1920x1080i except occasionally when they're running a sports program and drop the HD channel as to give the SD stream more bandwidth. When that happens they redirect the HD channel to the SD channel. It is possible that you did a rescan on your box when this happened and it has simply stuck to the SD stream, in which case, it can possibly be solved by rescanning your box again.

Here is a screenshot directly from Seven's MPEG-2 HD stream, it is clearly 1920x1080i:

http://img149.imageshack.us/img149/9097/sunrisefs4.jpg

Furthermore, data from Channel 7's broadcast:

Elementary Stream PID 577 (0x0241) MPEG-2 Video
MPEG Video: Bitrate 13.500 Mbps Resolution 1920 x 1080i
MPEG Video: Framerate 25 fps Aspect Ratio 16:9 Chroma Format 4:2:0
Elementary Stream PID 579 (0x0243) Dolby AC3 Audio
AC3: Bitrate 384 Kbps Sample Rate 48 KHz
AC3: Mode complete main Coding 2/0 L, R
AC3: Dolby Surround Mode not indicated 
AC3: LFE Mode Off Dialogue normalization -27 dB
Descriptor: ISO639 Language Descriptor

As you can see, this positively confirms it's 1920x1080i. As others have also correctly stated, set top boxes cannot determine if the station is upconverting SD content to HD, that information simply is not broadcast. It wouldn't be easy for a computer to be able to be determine that from analysing the video either.

Mate, HD TV is not broadcast in 1080. Thats why TV's that are not full 1080 say HD TV Ready or certified. Only PS3 and BlueRay Players and discs are 1080. So you really only should buy a full 1080 Tv if you are getting into HD blueray or PS3. Otherwise, TV is HD at 571, do you get it now? It's all a bit confusing.

This information is incorrect, television stations in Australia do broadcast HD in 1080i. SD rather, is 576i. Checking the transport streams at the moment in Sydney:

ABC HD - 1280x720p - ~9.8mbps

Seven HD - 1920x1080i - ~13.8mbps

Nine HD - 1440x1080i - ~14mbps

Ten HD - 1920x1080i - ~16mbps

SBS 'HD' - 720x576p - ~ 7.8mbps

As I've previously mentioned, most HD content apart from sports, 60hz converts and news is broadcast on these 1080i services as 25PsF which means that essentially, they can be viewed as 1080p on many newer TVs.

[Dr. Zachary Smith]

Good info, Winston. Will someone please tell SBS that an upgrade of their broadcast PQ is in order? I've emailed them and heard nothing back. Perhaps a few posts here might give them a gentle shove.

[digitalj]

Good info, Winston. Will someone please tell SBS that an upgrade of their broadcast PQ is in order? I've emailed them and heard nothing back. Perhaps a few posts here might give them a gentle shove.

SBS has said they want to do 720p this year, but it looks as if it won't be happening.

[Dr. Zachary Smith]

SBS has said they want to do 720p this year, but it looks as if it won't be happening.

Wonder why? They seem to be raking in the advertising revenue. I'd love to see their main rostrum news camera they use fall over and cark it! Then they could invest in something that actually displays more realistic skin tones.

[Hosko]

SBS has said they want to do 720p this year, but it looks as if it won't be happening.

They were going to outsource their playout to Red Bee but I think that fell through

[Dr. Zachary Smith]

They were going to outsource their playout to Red Bee but I think that fell through

Who is "Red Bee"?

[Dave_L]

And that i know, as 'Australian Standards' also allow RG59 as the acceptable standard for antenna cable for digital reception.

And that's the point i am eluding to, even though it is only 576p CH10 will advertise this a s HD and all the sheep will rejoice that they now have HD to watch on their expensive TV sets.

By the sounds of things, you are expecting that HD means 1080i/p, which is simply not the case. As you are already aware, anything over 576i is considered HD (with 1080i/p being "full-HD").

So when is HD really HD ?

I'd say when it's 576p or better (if we're being technical).

Do I agree that the layperson does not understand how all this really works and thinks that they are receiving the optimal quality out of their TV watching ?

Yes, but the broadcasters aren't responsible for this (IMHO). They are only taking advantage of how all modern-day AV gear is marketed....which falls back onto the shoulders of the manufacterers & the retailers who sell these products.

In reality, broadcasters are only reading the rules and playing by them (eg. SBS only being 576p, yet in Australia this is technically considered as HD). Knowing this, where is the dis-service ?

Instead, perhaps it would be better to go into your local electrical retail store and ask them why they don't tell their customers how this all really works (before they purchase their expensive TV). I think we all know the answer why this doesn't happen....

There is so much mis-information out there that it's no wonder the average person has no idea.....and sits blissfully ignorant on their comfy couch watching their "big-screen TV" in all it's glory.

My $0.02

[Hosko]

Who is "Red Bee"?

Red Bee Media

[Dr. Zachary Smith]

Red Bee Media

Thanks for the link, Hosko.

[ozynigma]

Last night's State of Origin Rugby was very hard to watch.

I am in Brisbane and found the PQ pretty poor on my 720p projector. I switched from 9HD to 9SD and reckon it was better on SD. In other words my projector did a better job of upscaling 576i native format broadcast to 720p than Ch9 did upscaling 576i content to a 1080i broadcast and then having me downscale again to 720p. A mate of mine who works for Telstra also told me that when broadcasting football Ch9 uses extra bandwidth (between cities receiving the broadcast I think he meant) on SD which might also account for the native SD broadcast looking better than the upscaled HD broadcast for interstate viewers.