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Sony Bravia Vs Pioneer Kuro


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Ok, I'm starting to do my head in. :wacko: This is what happens when you procrastinate.

Please see this post for background info

http://www.dtvforum.info/index.php?showtopic=58337

Orignally looked at the 508XDA Kuro becasue of the hype, then I began noticing the Sony in-shop and they do look stunning so I'm wandering now the pros and cons between the 52" Bravia XBR and the Kuro 508XDA and I really can't decide between the 2. As you can see I want a PS3 so the Sony now comes with it which will work out about the same price in total as getting the Kuro and PS3.

This is what I have figured so far: :blink:

Kuro 50" pros - Great blacks and natural colour, great picture quality, free install and delivery + 5 year warranty, no problem with motion.

Kuro 50" cons - Only 768p, more reflective surface, screen buzz and burn in????

I will be watchin a lot of the AFL when in season so motion can't blurry, I have a fair bit of reflective light during the day in the room but not over the top there are no windows behind the panel. 768p does worry me I want to keep this panel for 10 years so with Blueray and HD DVD I don't want to miss out on quality. I have been told at my viewing distance this should be a problem, but I'm not convinced.

52" XBR pros - 1080p (future proof), less reflective panel surface, great vivid colours

52" XBR cons - Motion blur (I don't know how good the 100hz is), need to organise wall mounting installation (don't care if picture quality etc is better), not as good contrast and blacks (I don't think this matters personally, I'm not going to sit there and compare black levels on each scene)

Viewing estimates will be - 60% TV, 20% movies, 20% PS3 gaming

HELP! I can't decide. Input is appreciated.

Edited by thudabot
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Most of your concerns are unfounded:

-It depends how close you are sitting too the TV as to whether you notice the extra resolution. At 50 inches, you would have to be sitting pretty damn close to pick up on it. The 508XD should look no different sharpness-wise from a 1080p set with a HD source. There is certainly more to it than this, but as far as concerns regarding 'future proofing' go, other factors like 60HZ/24fps, and of course PQ, contrast ratio, quality of tuner etc. should factor higher than resolution at most reasonable sitting distances.

-Screen buzz on the 508XD varies from set to set. Image retention is not an issue unless you intend to use the one photo you have of your holiday to the pure white snow as a screensaver.

-Motion blue on the Sony should be almost irrelevant. I believe they have a 8ms response time which should be fine for most applications, even sport. Unless you're one of the people who purposely look for blur.

The Sony being an LCD would certainly look brighter and perhaps therefore look clearer or sharper, or makes the colours look more vivid. However, it all depends upon the applications you intend to use the TV in. Most people say the LCDs look better under brighter lights, but in a darkened room, then it's normally the plasma where the deeper blacks help bring out the colours better than the LCDs. Some people say LCDs make things look unrealistic and cartoonish; others believe it is a better, brighter image. Some say that LCDs are better for gaming, and plasmas are more your movie thing.

It all comes down to you. If you're serious about purchasing a TV, go into a retailer and ask them to show you a range of different applications that you intend to use the set for. Ask to see it under different lighting conditions if possible to reflect the nature of your set up at home. Do your research on how important the technical specifications are to you exactly.

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just on the mention of not noticing 1080p.

you probably won't notice the difference if the set is at home.

but when i go into sony style, look at a wall of all the LCDs and compare W and D series side by side, 40" runnign bluray at 1080p. The W series which is 1080p is noticeably clearer.

But also I have had 3 LCD's in the last 3 years and compared many different sets so i see what to look out for. Usually its the finer detail, background trees in casino royale, smaller objects from a distance that would use less amount of pixels to make up a lot of detail so 1080p helps.

but anyway, i think the kuros are better tvs than the bravias but I am buying a bravia 46" simply because the cost and specs seem to be pretty good and the only real advantage i see with a kuro is higher contrast, which isnt goign to bother me too much for now.

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but when i go into sony style, look at a wall of all the LCDs and compare W and D series side by side, 40" runnign bluray at 1080p. The W series which is 1080p is noticeably clearer.

Without looking to start a flame thread here, I'd suggest the reason that the W set looks clearer is for reasons other than resolution. If you had two identical specced sets, say two W Series Bravias, next to eachother, and the only difference was resolution, I'm of the belief that you would not notice the difference between the two beyond a certain distance. Especially at 40" where the sitting distance require to resolve the extra resolution would suggest you'd have to be using it as a computer monitor.

There are other opinions on this forum though, and I'm well aware of them. Again, it comes down to your own personal opinion. Thudabot, I'd just suggest that you put both sets to a test in an environment and in an application that reflects how you intend to use the set at home. I'd also suggest you try and research the generally optimum settings for both sets and punch these in so that you know personally that nobody's been fiddling with the settings to alter the field of play.

Edited by -GruG-
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I'll throw my two cents in as an owner of a 52" XBR. I watch a truck load of sport and to my eyes the new bravia's don't suffer from motion blur. Another pro for the sony's is they can accept 24fps from bluray and HD DVD. It then plays it back at 120 fps which looks really smooth.

They only con I have for my display is the Black Levels. If you sit straight in front of it I personally think the blacks are good enough. But if you sit on a 45 degree angle to the screen the blacks become woeful and the contrast sucks. I guess it depends on how you view your screen. I just make sure I sit on the couch in front of it but we have a couch that runs perpendicular to the TV on side wall and its not good from there.

On the gaming side my 52" XBR is simply amazing when I'm playing the 360 on it, I'm a little sad I didn't get a PS3 when I bought mine but then again the only game I could see myself playing on it would be GT when its released.

Edited by Hosko
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cheers for the detailed info GruG, i'm limited in time at the moment so when I'm in a shop I usually only have a quick browse, I'd never have the time to sit there and play with the settings especially with the new baby and chrissy season. I think I have done enough research on these forums and the net, but was a bit unsure.

I think the Kuro might still be the one, reflections are very minimal after reassessin, the way my living area is open plan we do watch it from different angles such as kitchen and dinning room so the 45 degree thing comes into play like Hosko said and the closest I'll be viewing it from is 3.5m, then the kitchen and dining room viewing will obviously be much further away. I guess I won't be looking for quality from those places, but when in front of it and playing games watching movies or footy I was concerned about the resolution then.

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I guess I won't be looking for quality from those places, but when in front of it and playing games watching movies or footy I was concerned about the resolution then.

Even when playing games in front of the set, resolution is a relatively minimal concern behind a range of other factors. Moreover, HD games tend to run at 720p and then sometimes upscale themselves to 1080p, but this is not their natural resolution. I've seen a bit of discussion that theorises that none of the current consoles we have are capable of producing 1080p natural resolution at a decent framerate. And even if they do, it's of minor concern.

If you're sitting at 3.5m for the footy and movies, then I'm of the belief you most certainly couldn't discern 1080p.

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Even when playing games in front of the set, resolution is a relatively minimal concern behind a range of other factors. Moreover, HD games tend to run at 720p and then sometimes upscale themselves to 1080p, but this is not their natural resolution. I've seen a bit of discussion that theorises that none of the current consoles we have are capable of producing 1080p natural resolution at a decent framerate. And even if they do, it's of minor concern.

If you're sitting at 3.5m for the footy and movies, then I'm of the belief you most certainly couldn't discern 1080p.

Another vote for the kuro - I have been playing xbox360 with mine for a while now and have had no problems with image retention/burn in. Also the Kuro's in australia have a pretty good anti-glare / reflection filter. If you don't have a light directly behind it ou shouldn't see too many reflections.

Also - the loss of resolution when the screen is in motion is far less with the kuro than even the best LCD. Some of the publshed reviews put it at about 3 times more visible resolution than the sony.

For sport - but particularly for gaming this is important.

And of course for movies in the dark - there is no comparison...

The real problem is the difference in price... especially once you factor in the sony playstation.

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Sony have a Hi Def display at Singapore Airport Terminal 2 with a range of LCD screens and Home theatre sound systems.

Its a Shocker you can see motion Blur at 50 metres!! O.K. 5 metres then. The colours are all set way too vivid enough to put anybody off Hi Def for life..

The theatre surround with the tiny speakers is quite neat though except if you put decent speaker cable on it would be nearly the same size as the satellite speakers. :P

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yeah cheers to you all for the input, i think i agree with you all about the 1080p, i can get a good price on the Kuro so I think the original choice I made still stands with the Kuro and PS3

i now think the reflecting/glaring issue will not be relevant.

brisvegas1 - good to know about the resolution loss with motion esp during sport and gaming.

gaming is a non issue now also as they are all 720p anyway

What do you guys think about pairing the Kuro with the LX60 receiver, i had this question posted in the HT systems thread link I had above

Edited by thudabot
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Thud

Pick up the Sony and you;ll get the PS3

and dying in your bed , many years from now , would you be willing to trade all your nights watching lifeless blacks for one chance, just one chance to have seen it all on a KURO??

:)

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Just on the reflection issue - I used to have a 76cm CRT, facing windows (ie the windows were behind us). When it was turned off, it was like we had a mirror in the room. When it was on, everything reflected. On a sunny day, there weren't many places in the room you could sit that made it watchable. At night, all lights had to be off. This was partly because of the type of screen, and partly because with the small size any reflection took up a big chunk of the screen.

With the Pioneer, the only reflection I see with the screen on is on the bezel, and I don't find that distracting at all. YMMV. Also, I've never heard any buzzing sound, I've even got up really close with bright stuff on, can't hear anything. Must have got a good one. That, or I'm deaf.

On the negative side of the ledger is just one item so far. The internal tuner is the biggest POS I've encountered since I gave the QTR2140 away. I ring Pioneer every Friday to ask if they've got a fix for it yet, it's bloody awful.

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yeah cheers to you all for the input, i think i agree with you all about the 1080p, i can get a good price on the Kuro so I think the original choice I made still stands with the Kuro and PS3

i now think the reflecting/glaring issue will not be relevant.

brisvegas1 - good to know about the resolution loss with motion esp during sport and gaming.

gaming is a non issue now also as they are all 720p anyway

What do you guys think about pairing the Kuro with the LX60 receiver, i had this question posted in the HT systems thread link I had above

Hi thudabot. You mentioned a good price on the Kuro. How good and where ? I missed the group buy and have the same decision as you, so it comes down to price. If the Kuro was a bit cheaper I could justify the spend, but with the gap so large in price it's tough. So what is a good price and where from ?

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It's outrageously slow changing channels, MPEG sound is about 10Db lower than Dolby Digital through both the TV speakers and the optical link - and there seems to be no way to adjust it at the source. Also, the volume on the ABC (at least) wavers. Often. Very annoying.

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It's outrageously slow changing channels, MPEG sound is about 10Db lower than Dolby Digital through both the TV speakers and the optical link - and there seems to be no way to adjust it at the source. Also, the volume on the ABC (at least) wavers. Often. Very annoying.

Is it only slow through its own tuner? Say if you were using Foxtel and changing channels through its box so you were always on channel AV1 for arguments sake would it still take x time (I have heard 7 seconds) to change channels?

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Hi thudabot. You mentioned a good price on the Kuro. How good and where ? I missed the group buy and have the same decision as you, so it comes down to price. If the Kuro was a bit cheaper I could justify the spend, but with the gap so large in price it's tough. So what is a good price and where from ?

West coast Hi FI should be able to do it around $5000, i figure with the installation being free (as I want it wall mounted, and they feed all the cables through the wall cavity etc) and the 5 year warranty it's still good value when you consider it's giving all the 1080p's a run for their money.

I actually saw the Kuro side by side in a store with the panasonic, LG and hitachi and there was no contest in my eyes.

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Is it only slow through its own tuner? Say if you were using Foxtel and changing channels through its box so you were always on channel AV1 for arguments sake would it still take x time (I have heard 7 seconds) to change channels?

exactly, the slow tuner isnt going to be issue if you are using a separate STB or foxtel (although foxtel isnt exactly fast at changing channels either). i personally dont think the built in tuner is THAT slow anyways :rolleyes:

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Apart from the slow tuner (which my Sony V series has) isn't there a perceived softness to the Pio tuner? I haven't studied it myself but I've seen it mentioned a few times? Also don't know how sensitive it is compared to the Sony (which is very good).

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As a first time poster, and someone who's looking at this board for a while, I'm impressed with a lot of the info I've found out in the past month or two. And whilst most of you have forgotten more than what I know, thanks all from this luddite.

I've been scouting around and have decided that it's a toss up between the Pioneer and Sony. I'm happy to pay the extra for either one (over competition from Panasonic etc), and from what I can tell they are the best in their respective technology in the external LCD v plasma debate.

My only question is about whether the Sony struggles with motion blur, even with it's advancements. If I get an XBR, and when (if?) the Dockers go streaming forward at full pace will there be any motion blur??? I've been in HN watching Sony's struggle on Ch10's cooking shows, is this just a recption issue in the shop or something that I should get concerned about. Pio's products just seem sensational, can't see any problems with their pic even with full on motion.

Thanks in advance.

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It's sensitivity is pretty good, perceived softness is adjustable and not really one of the tuner's faults. In terms of speed, it's the slowest I've seen (and I've owned some garbage, believe me). The only reason it can't change in less than 2 secs (preferably less than one) is because it's a cheap piece of crap that has no place in an expensive TV. I only use it because I've still got an SD Topfield attached, and that's only because I can't decide whether I want the headache of a half-built prototype PVR (Beyonwiz) or whether I'll just get the Topfield 7000 and put up with its limited feature set. After that decision's made, it's goodbye crapulent tuner.

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It's sensitivity is pretty good, perceived softness is adjustable and not really one of the tuner's faults. In terms of speed, it's the slowest I've seen (and I've owned some garbage, believe me). The only reason it can't change in less than 2 secs (preferably less than one) is because it's a cheap piece of crap that has no place in an expensive TV. I only use it because I've still got an SD Topfield attached, and that's only because I can't decide whether I want the headache of a half-built prototype PVR (Beyonwiz) or whether I'll just get the Topfield 7000 and put up with its limited feature set. After that decision's made, it's goodbye crapulent tuner.

If you adjust the Pio sharpness for the inbuilt tuner then does that affect sharpness for other inputs (e.g. hdmi)?

Also my Sony V series takes about 4-5 secs to change channels.

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I too was tossing up between a 52XBR and a 508XDA. In fact I was 2 days from buying the Sony.

What changed my mind?

My son purchased a Samsung F81 40" LCD.

As soon as he turned it on it had bad clouding issues which have improved with use

the blacks aren't black, they are a dirty grey!

The 100hz motion flow works well, in some instances too good, as movement does not look natural

It may be my eays but there does not seem to be any depth to the picture, which could explain the cartoon like appearance.

Anyway I ordered the 508 on Sunday.

Again, my only concern is that it is not full HD, but from all to posts this should not be an issue for me at 3-4m

On the tuner the F81 takes 4-5 secs to change channels. From tests I made in store the 508 takes about 5 secs.

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Again, my only concern is that it is not full HD, but from all to posts this should not be an issue for me at 3-4m

Lack of 1080 is absolutely a NON ISSUE on a 50” at 3 meters plus.

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If you adjust the Pio sharpness for the inbuilt tuner then does that affect sharpness for other inputs (e.g. hdmi)?

Also my Sony V series takes about 4-5 secs to change channels.

As far as I know, Kuro remember settings on each input, so tuner setting will not effect HDMI. HDMI3 will not effect HDMI4, etc...

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I too was tossing up between a 52XBR and a 508XDA. In fact I was 2 days from buying the Sony.

What changed my mind?

My son purchased a Samsung F81 40" LCD.

As soon as he turned it on it had bad clouding issues which have improved with use

the blacks aren't black, they are a dirty grey!

The 100hz motion flow works well, in some instances too good, as movement does not look natural

It may be my eays but there does not seem to be any depth to the picture, which could explain the cartoon like appearance.

Another one being enlightened, and spot the main weakness of LCD :) I have Kuro in my living room, and have Dell LCD in my bedroom, and the difference is between night and day. Waiting for OLED tech to replace this LCD...

Sorry, not intended to set a LCD VS Plasma flame war here, both have its own strength and weaknesses. But for me, Plasma contrast, color accuracy, screen uniformity, and no motion blur win over less screen reflectivity and possible higher resolution of LCD. YMMV...

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Lack of 1080 is absolutely a NON ISSUE on a 50” at 3 meters plus.

True.

Play some excellent BluRay transfer, such as BBC Planet Earth. Ask couple of your friend (probably some of them that you know having a sharp eye) to guess the resolution on your 50" Kuro at that distance. Don't tell them the model number, tell them it is probably the most sophisticated plasma available at the moment (this balance their first perception that it might be only 720P, and will make them think it might be 1080p).

Ask them to make educated guess, why they pick 1080p or 720p/768, for example. Bet they won't be able to tell the difference :)

This way, you make a good deed as well by educationg the community, the truth about TV resolution :)

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yeah cheers to you all for the input, i think i agree with you all about the 1080p, i can get a good price on the Kuro so I think the original choice I made still stands with the Kuro and PS3

i now think the reflecting/glaring issue will not be relevant.

brisvegas1 - good to know about the resolution loss with motion esp during sport and gaming.

gaming is a non issue now also as they are all 720p anyway

What do you guys think about pairing the Kuro with the LX60 receiver, i had this question posted in the HT systems thread link I had above

thudabot,

I have the 508XDA paired with the VSX-LX60 and I am very, very happy with the way both are performing. The HDMI control works very sweetly and the two components seems to just work together as though they were built with each other in mind... Oh yeah, that's right, they were. All the Pioneer LX gear was built specifically to match the Kuro panels and the Pio engineers have done an awsome job.

And most importantly, I do like the way the LX60 handles and sounds with music as much as movies, TV, etc.

I also would like to add that my Kuro sits about 3 metres away from a floor to ceiling window and sliding door to the balcony and the light from that doesn't reflect much at all, barely noticable.

Go the 508XDA Kuro, you'll not regret it.

Cheers!

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ronin thats awesome, the pioneer gear certainly look the goods in terms of quality and aesthetics, LX60 has to be one of the sexiest receivers on the market.

I can't wait to get this gear it will be in late January as I'm waiting for the cabinet

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What about the 42" Kuro model - I'd be sitting about 3-4 metres away. Compared to the 46" Bravia, is there a difference between the 720p and 1080p?

ROFL :lol: not a chance, that’s an even more ridicules scenario then the 50” from 3 meters plus.

42” is WAY too small to need 1080 at 3 meters plus, and the 46” is not much better.

60” should be considered the minimum for effective 1080 viewing at 3 meters, and even that is pushing it. At 4 meters a 60” is way too small.

For your viewing distance you need the biggest display you can afford. A 50” would be preferable to anything smaller, and it does not need to be 1080.

How about the 508XDA Kuro.

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I have to say that I can most certainly see the difference in my D series Sony and my W series Sony but I have never put it to resolution at the distance i watch from the difference i belive is largely that the W series has a different bravia engine and better contrast ratios ( the x and xbr are a step up yet again). Allot of the 1080p models have improved in these area's and in turn are producing better quality images from the tv's.. NOT soley because of resolution though but a combination of advancements which have overall improved PQ in LCD's , so the argument can most certainly be made that 1080p made tv's are better when looking at high Def or True High Def LCD sets however it's not because the tv is 1080p ... it's because of all the other advancements they have added to the TV

Imo though it puts them on Par with allot of plasmas out there , not ahead of them though.

As for Motion Blur , I one by one turned it off on each input , i fiddled around with it for a while with my different choices in veiwing and the most i could take was standard , once it got to high it seemed very artificial in parts to me

Edited by Fallen Angel
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Can i get some professional opinions on the Kuro or 52" xbr - I am in an apartment - so i will be sitting directly infront of the tv and no more than 3-4 metres away from the screen. is the 780 vs 1080 going to be noticeable.. i watch alot of dvds/movies/foxtel and if im spending the extra $3000 (once i sell my old lg plasmas for 1 g) i want the quality to be amazing & much better than my current one - beside the extra 8 inchs of screen size"..

dan

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Can i get some professional opinions on the Kuro or 52" xbr - I am in an apartment - so i will be sitting directly infront of the tv and no more than 3-4 metres away from the screen. is the 780 vs 1080 going to be noticeable.. i watch alot of dvds/movies/foxtel and if im spending the extra $3000 (once i sell my old lg plasmas for 1 g) i want the quality to be amazing & much better than my current one - beside the extra 8 inchs of screen size"..

dan

Dan your question has been covered thousands of times on teh forum and also in this thread

From owen :

60†should be considered the minimum for effective 1080 viewing at 3 meters, and even that is pushing it. At 4 meters a 60†is way too small.

For your viewing distance you need the biggest display you can afford. A 50†would be preferable to anything smaller, and it does not need to be 1080.

How about the 508XDA Kuro.

Don't waste your cash on just resolution choices IT"S NOT THE IMPORTANT FACTOR when lookign at overall PQ and enjoyment

Edited by Fallen Angel
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Exactly, buy the TV you find to have the most appealing picture. Forget about screen resolution, at 3 meters plus for a 50”- 52” it just does not matter.

Have a good long look at the 508XDA Pioneer Kuro. It’s 768 and has it all over the 52” 1080 Sony for picture quality IMHO.

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True.

Play some excellent BluRay transfer, such as BBC Planet Earth. Ask couple of your friend (probably some of them that you know having a sharp eye) to guess the resolution on your 50" Kuro at that distance. Don't tell them the model number, tell them it is probably the most sophisticated plasma available at the moment (this balance their first perception that it might be only 720P, and will make them think it might be 1080p).

Ask them to make educated guess, why they pick 1080p or 720p/768, for example. Bet they won't be able to tell the difference :)

This way, you make a good deed as well by educationg the community, the truth about TV resolution :)

Don't suppose it matters that Planet Earth was only filmed at 720p or does that mess with your example?

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Hey ppls,

This might be slightly off topic. But for some reason I can't post a new topic, dont have permissions and couldnt find any options for paid subscriptions (sorry I am a noob).

Sure this has been done to death. I am also looking at these 2 displays. The Sony 52in X/XBR and the Pioneer 50in LX508 (different to the one mentioned above obviously). The cost and PS3 is no influence on my decisions. I have been umming and arring about TV's for 3yrs but never bought due to other reasons. Anyway. The main reason for deciding my purchase is which will best suit my needs.

I am planning to use this display as my primary TV in the family room and will be connected to a Linux media centre (mythtv) or general daily TV usage off the built in tuner. Occasionally games and movies at night from standard DVD's then blue ray one day. From what I saw shopping today at Myer, JB, Hardly Normal and Big Overpriced People (sorry, bad experiences at both - long story). The Pioneers seem to have the edge in terms of colour in clarity. Both looked amazing with Blue ray demos but I still think the pioneer had the edge in terms of PQ blacks and colours (in my opinion). I also noticed that when watching an american sitcom show (cant recall name - large family man with hat) on channel nine. The Sony was not good at all in terms of PQ and the pioneer was far better. The Sony seemed to look quite fake and 'blocky'. The pioneer wasnt great either (obviously due to the age of the show being played). But the Sony noticably worse. The Sony did not seem to cope as well with resolutions outside of its native. I made this comparison at 2 stores with different channels/show (eg. 2nd store was channel 10 HD) and came to this conclusion. Viewing distances were the same in both instances. Obviously there can be many influences, but I can only go by what I see.

Anyhow. If it came down to PQ I would go the Pioneer, both have similar feature sets and price I was quoted (minus the PS3 of course). My main concern is the usage. Are Plasmas good for media centre applications, gaming Console and 'still' pictures in terms of burn in? Are they over the excessive power consumption and burn in issues that plagued them in the past? This is pretty much the only thing stopping me from getting the Pioneer, I have no doubt the Sony LCD can handle this usage/environnment.

Thoughts anyone?

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