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Panasonic Real 1080p Plasmas, When !

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Owen Grand Master

Owen

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Thanks for pointing that out.

So the missing detail in dark scenes that I can see on my HD projector (15,000:1) but that I can't see on my 2yr old (1000:1) plasma has nothing to do with contrast? Maybe it's called 'black crush'? How's that measured?

Yes its black crush, and there is no specification number for that.

Plasma technology has problems being able to reproduce the dark end of the spectrum. Plasma uses pulse width modulation to vary the light output of each pixel. The linearity at the dark end of the spectrum is poor so dithering is used to help smooth the response. It works ok, but it’s no substitute for a display that uses linear drive.

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T800 Veteran

T800

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Im still debating whether to go lcd or plasma. If you have glare, are you better off with plasma or lcd to daytike viewing. house ill be in full sun hits tv, but still with blinds down doesnt block it al out

which am i better off with?

thanks

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Dave_L Collaborator

Dave_L

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Today I was looking at the current 50" and dark scene detail was pretty merky so expect to see a big difference.

I assume you've based your judgement on recognising that this "current 50" screen" was, or perhaps was not:

- setup with favourable lighting in the shop (similar to how one would have their lighting at home) ?

- with the screen being calibrated (or at least it's settings being changed for optimum PQ), and

- playing good quality content ?

It is very easy to walk into a store and see a Plasma/LCD looking like absolute crap. Walk into a different store and the same TV can look completely different.

Setup correctly, I'd expect you'd see a big difference without waiting to see the new 1080 PZ model.

I'd also be surprised if the black levels/contrast etc. of the new PZ series, match the current 768 panels. Most of the 1080 panels, whilst getting better all the time, still have some way to go before they catch up with the 768 screens (now several generations old).

If you're after better picture quality, perhaps have a read of these two recent posts !

"Full-HD" vs "HD" Flat Panels

Comparing the Image Sharpness of Displays

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HomerJ Experienced

HomerJ

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Yes its black crush, and there is no specification number for that.

Plasma technology has problems being able to reproduce the dark end of the spectrum. Plasma uses pulse width modulation to vary the light output of each pixel. The linearity at the dark end of the spectrum is poor so dithering is used to help smooth the response. It works ok, but it’s no substitute for a display that uses linear drive.

Thanks again. I'd always assumed blck crush was a manifestation of lower contrast. This is one of the issues I'm attempting to solve when purchasing my next flat panel sometime in the next month after I see the new Pana and Pio ranges. (Also the latest Sony XBR LCDs are due within that period but I've almost ruled them out after comparing plasma and LCD over last couple of weeks in a couple of stores).

Does LCD have the same black crush issue or am I looking at a probelem that can't be solved with current technology?

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Owen Grand Master

Owen

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LCD’s don’t have to dither, so they have a theoretical advantage at the dark end, however LCD’s have disadvantages that are far worse IMHO.

I have yet to see a LCD that can compete with a good Plasma for picture quality, and current Plasmas are much better then your old model.

The technology with the best blacks, shadow detail and shadow noise performance dose not come in flat panels. ;)

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Glider Collaborator

Glider

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Nice premium price on that one, I'm looking at the 42" screen. Anyone in for a group purchase?

They won't hold that price for long.

The 1080P plasma market is about to transform from an expensive niche product into a mainstream consumer item.

Individual manufacturer market shares and pricing is going to be fluid for a while. Throw Sony and their new full HD LCD range into the mix and you can just see a price war looming. :)

Plasma dominates the big screen market in Australia and I don't think they are about to give that up just yet.

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HomerJ Experienced

HomerJ

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The technology with the best blacks, shadow detail and shadow noise performance dose not come in flat panels. ;)

I've owned: 7" CRT -> 720p DLP -> 1080 SRXD projectors (not to mention CRT and Plasma TVs) and I'm certainly not seeing 'best blacks' on current flat panels, although I know contrast has improved on latest models about to be launched here. Its really about a compromise now:

The 7" CRT was just too big and required contant tweaking/realignment and drove the family crazy (best blacks winner).

The 1st gen 720p DLP drove me crazy with non-existent contrast.

SRXD. This was great but basically due to separate components was too difficult to use for the family, so hardly ever used (and of course required complete darkness - another hassle particularly in daylight saving times).

So for me now its about getting the best 50 - 60" 1080p flat panel for max usability. But I want to find a good solution to the black crush issue that drives me nuts - and actually my wife is seeing this for the first time now on our 'old' plasma...

I'm hoping the new Panas are going to do it but I have a feeling I'll end up with a Pio 'Kuro'. A least I can get it ISF calibrated (unlike the the Pana 700 - where is the 750 Panasonic?).

Regarding Pana pricing the local Retrovision guy quoted 'about $4500' for the 50" but said the pricing was still not confirmed.

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Owen Grand Master

Owen

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I've owned: 7" CRT -> 720p DLP -> 1080 SRXD projectors (not to mention CRT and Plasma TVs) and I'm certainly not seeing 'best blacks' on current flat panels, although I know contrast has improved on latest models about to be launched here. Its really about a compromise now:

Maybe it’s me, but that did not come out right in relation the post of mine you quoted.

I was suggesting flat panels DON’T have the best blacks. :D

Anyway, I think you will find that the better Plasma’s will be acceptable for your needs, they have come a long why in the last few years and the new Pioneer Kuro sounds by far the most promising.

I was looking at some Plasmas and LCD’s today, and the Samsung 50” Plasma had the best blacks of the bunch by far (a surprise to me). The opposition included current 1080 46” LCD’s from Sony, Sharp, Samsung and 768 Plasmas from Panasonic, LG and others (no Pioneer).

(All the displays where showing the same content (a 2.35:1 aspect ratio movie) with black bars top and bottom. I cupped my hands over the black area of the screen to evaluate black level.)

The LCD’s where all outclassed by the Pana and Sammy Plasma’s no risk.

I really straggly to find anything nice to say about LCD TV’s, I just don’t like what any of them do with video. They vary between bearable and unwatchable.

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HomerJ Experienced

HomerJ

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New PZs pricing on Pana.com.au. Looks like higher than reported. I'm in for the Pio.

VIERA TH-58PZ700A FULL HD Digital Plasma TV [Model No: TH-58PZ700A]

RRP: $9,899 [GST Inc.]

VIERA TH-50PZ700A FULL HD Digital Plasma TV [Model No: TH-50PZ700A]

RRP: $5,499 [GST Inc.]

Also added info on the PZs including this:

4,096 Equivalent Steps of Gradation - 68.7 Billion Viewable Colours!

16-bit video processing makes it possible to reproduce images with 4,096 equivalent steps of gradation and an incredible 68.7 billion viewable colours. The picture noise and black blocking that occur with insufficient gradation is suppressed even in scenes with intricate detail, fine textures and subtle expressions. Even the most detailed parts of an image are rendered with beautiful smoothness.

I guess only the eyes will see if this is just marketing BS...

Edited by HomerJ
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diesel Grand Master

diesel

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VIERA TH-50PZ700A FULL HD Digital Plasma TV [Model No: TH-50PZ700A]

RRP: $5,499 [GST Inc.]

I can't believe that! :blink:

That's cheaper than the RRP of the PX600 panel 12 months ago

Certainly going to be a good few months leading into Xmas as people get their bonus cheques and ATO refunds.

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HomerJ Experienced

HomerJ

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Well when you consider people in the UK have returned the Z700 in favor of the 508 I think the decision is quite easy.

Reasons?

There's an argument for 1080p over 768. Pio 508 = Pana PZ + BD player.... I wouldn't feel 'future proofed' with a 768 panel now with so much HD becoming available (BD, HD-DVD, free to air HD plus Foxtel HD early next year). 1080p's an incredible experience and all the new gen panels have improvements in PQ. Its got to be 1080p...

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peter2000 Collaborator

peter2000

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New PZs pricing on Pana.com.au. Looks like higher than reported. I'm in for the Pio.

VIERA TH-58PZ700A FULL HD Digital Plasma TV [Model No: TH-58PZ700A]

RRP: $9,899 [GST Inc.]

VIERA TH-50PZ700A FULL HD Digital Plasma TV [Model No: TH-50PZ700A]

RRP: $5,499 [GST Inc.]

Hmm so HDDVDUSER is wrong on the pricing huh??. So much for the drop in price before it comes out. Panasonic must be on drugs if they think they will compete with Pioneer 60inch if they selling the 58inch for $9899.

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HomerJ Experienced

HomerJ

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Hmm so HDDVDUSER is wrong on the pricing huh??. So much for the drop in price before it comes out. Panasonic must be on drugs if they think they will compete with Pioneer 60inch if they selling the 58inch for $9899.

No doubt prices will drop once the Pio's are in store.

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hddvduser Experienced

hddvduser

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Hmm so HDDVDUSER is wrong on the pricing huh??. So much for the drop in price before it comes out. Panasonic must be on drugs if they think they will compete with Pioneer 60inch if they selling the 58inch for $9899.

how am i wrong i told you the price will drop to 7999 very soon for the 58......... not to long wait and see.....

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hddvduser Experienced

hddvduser

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Posted
New PZs pricing on Pana.com.au. Looks like higher than reported. I'm in for the Pio.

VIERA TH-58PZ700A FULL HD Digital Plasma TV [Model No: TH-58PZ700A]

RRP: $9,899 [GST Inc.]

VIERA TH-50PZ700A FULL HD Digital Plasma TV [Model No: TH-50PZ700A]

RRP: $5,499 [GST Inc.]

Also added info on the PZs including this:

4,096 Equivalent Steps of Gradation - 68.7 Billion Viewable Colours!

16-bit video processing makes it possible to reproduce images with 4,096 equivalent steps of gradation and an incredible 68.7 billion viewable colours. The picture noise and black blocking that occur with insufficient gradation is suppressed even in scenes with intricate detail, fine textures and subtle expressions. Even the most detailed parts of an image are rendered with beautiful smoothness.

I guess only the eyes will see if this is just marketing BS...

the panasonic rrp is

4999 50inch

58 is 8999 at the moment ....

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