Hitachi Plasma 50" 1080

[ekkieTHUMP]

Hi guys.I might be a newbie but rest assured i have been reading your posts for a long time.I have an interest in this thread cause i'm a happy owner of a Hitachi 1024 x 1024 42' plasma for a long time and almost upgraded to the P50X01 when it was first released.In the end i decided to hold back to compare to the Panasonic and Samsung.Of course in an ideal world i would buy the pioneer but $8k for a tv is not my ideal world atm.Anyway i just thought i would share my thoughts on my look at the 3 way fight between the non pioneer 1920 x 1080 plasma panels.First off when we look at the holy grail of black levels i have to admit the Hitachi is the worst of the three.Blind tommy can see it is not within a bulls roar of the pioneer blacks but then neither are the pana or samsung either.Honestly yes the blacks are better but not by that much that it would compel me to buy it.If i was anal enough to not buy the hitachi cause the pana had better blacks then i would be anal enough to take out a loan for $8k and buy the pioneer.In the real world i had a long hard look at the pana after watching my hitachi for a couple of years and hated it.I think the anti reflection screen sofens the image to the point where there is more detail in my 1024x1024 than there is in the pana.Also the colors are not as vibrant on the pana as they are on both my old and the new hitachi.When i see the P50X01 being fed with good 1080p content all the stunning detail is there to see.I just can't see the same detail there with the pana.Ok now here is the thing that really blew me away is what i will call sideways processing.The weak point of my 42' Hitachi is panning from side to side is very ordinary.Well for sure it is greatly improved on the new pana and samsung but both are still far from perfect.You can still see a noticable stepping between frames on things going sideways.Have a look on the P50X01 being fed with a 1080p source though.I was blown away by the Hitachi in this demo.Slow pans or super fast action this is hands down the best tv i have ever seen in this test.All the BS in the media about 1080i v's p is just that BS if you ask me.Seeing is believing for mine and blacks not being as black as pioneer aside for $5k less with HN offering me this tv for $3k today i think it a freakin wonderful bargain purchase.

[Owen]

The 768 50” Kuro is under $4k and unless you are going to be sitting less then 2.5 meters from the screen it’s the way to go IMHO. 1080 is grossly overrated on modest sized screens as far as I am concerned, the better blacks and contrast of the 768 Kuro is vastest more important then a few extra pixels, but that’s just me.

[ekkieTHUMP]

The 768 50” Kuro is under $4k and unless you are going to be sitting less then 2.5 meters from the screen it’s the way to go IMHO. 1080 is grossly overrated on modest sized screens as far as I am concerned, the better blacks and contrast of the 768 Kuro is vastest more important then a few extra pixels, but that’s just me.

It's nowhere near under $4k where i live as the pioneers are not a high volume seller.At a guess i would say $4.5k is the lowest i could get one in my local area.I appreciate what your saying on the res as i have seen the full res pio going side by side with the 768 and i thought the 768 if anything looked better detail wise at normal viewing distance .I am talking about getting the Hitachi for $3k or maybe even less if i really put the squeeze on cause the HN sales guys seem desperate to get rid of these things.Seems like a deal to good to pass up for me.

[Owen]

Have you looked at the 768p Samsung and Panasonic? They should be cheaper then the 1080 Hitachi and are better IMHO.

The Panasonic looks better out off the box, but the Samsung has a lot of potential with a little fine tunning of the settings.

My preference for the none Hitachi alternatives has nothing to do with the 1080i issue, but simply black level which is not good on the Hitachi.

[ekkieTHUMP]

Have you looked at the 768p Samsung and Panasonic? They should be cheaper then the 1080 Hitachi and are better IMHO.

The Panasonic looks better out off the box, but the Samsung has a lot of potential with a little fine tunning of the settings.

My preference for the none Hitachi alternatives has nothing to do with the 1080i issue, but simply black level which is not good on the Hitachi.

Nope i havn't done that comparo,more homework

[inspecthergadget]

There are a number of picture settings on all these machines.

There is even a black enhancement button on the Hitachi.

Black levels are important but overall differentiation in grey levels is important too.

I guess you have to look at the whole picture. Blacker blacks are good but not at the expense of other elements of the picture.

In the end it is what picture you like best, and this will differ from person to person.

Personally, I doubt if you would be disappointed with any of these full HD plasma tvs, not at least the good ones like the Hitachi, Panasonic and Pioneer.

Grant

[Goldy]

The 768 50” Kuro is under $4k and unless you are going to be sitting less then 2.5 meters from the screen it’s the way to go IMHO. 1080 is grossly overrated on modest sized screens as far as I am concerned, the better blacks and contrast of the 768 Kuro is vastest more important then a few extra pixels, but that’s just me.

Where can you get a 50" kuro for under $4k?

[Owen]

Where can you get a 50" kuro for under $4k?

Don’t know who is offering that sort of price, but I seem to remember a price that low mentioned here somewhere. In a month or so it should not be that difficult to find.

I don’t expect you will ever get a Pioneer for the same price as a Hitachi but that’s not the point, you get what you pay for.

The Hitachi is outrageously cheap for a 1080 Plasma, but 768 models from Samsung and Panasonic are cheaper still, and have better blacks.

Unless you set very close, the extra resolution of a 1080 panel is of no practical value, but other aspects of performance like black level will be quite noticeable on any video source as long as you own the set.

Don’t get me wrong I’m not anti 1080, I own a 1080 TV myself, but it’s a 70” not a 50”.

If I where after a 50” for my 2.8-3.0 meter viewing distance I would not interested in a 1080 set unless it offered better performance in areas other then resolution in comparison to 768 models

End of rant.

[inspecthergadget]

I think the differences between a 1080 screen and 768 is as obvious as a tarantula on your dining table. Yes, if it is a smaller screen and you sit several metres away you may not notice but at 2.5 - 3.0 m with a 50 inch screen, very noticeable.

Time to update guys!

I know the pioneer screens are very nice but it still can't pull resolution out of the hole it it's bum. If the resolution doesn't exist in the first place, no amount of quality electronics will change that. It just isnt' there. Period.

Having said that all these units upscale nicely to 1080 and the image quality is excellent. I was watching Team America on my HD-DVD player and it was great.

Grant

[ekkieTHUMP]

There are a number of picture settings on all these machines.

There is even a black enhancement button on the Hitachi.

Black levels are important but overall differentiation in grey levels is important too.

I guess you have to look at the whole picture. Blacker blacks are good but not at the expense of other elements of the picture.

In the end it is what picture you like best, and this will differ from person to person.

Personally, I doubt if you would be disappointed with any of these full HD plasma tvs, not at least the good ones like the Hitachi, Panasonic and Pioneer.

Grant

Thats a good point.I bought my current Hitachi 1024 x 1024 based on the fact that i liked the way it looked.Sure i liked the pioneer better at the time but i got the Hitachi for half the price and i have been happy with the bang i got for my buck ever since.It still blows me away with the upscaled dvd of Ghost in the Shell:Innocence and the blu-ray release of Tekkonkinkreet.If i had to list in order the picture i like best of the four 1080 plasma's i've seen it would be Pioneer,Hitachi,Samsung,Panasonic.

[Owen]

I think the differences between a 1080 screen and 768 is as obvious as a tarantula on your dining table. Yes, if it is a smaller screen and you sit several metres away you may not notice but at 2.5 - 3.0 m with a 50 inch screen, very noticeable.

Time to update guys!

I know the pioneer screens are very nice but it still can't pull resolution out of the hole it it's bum. If the resolution doesn't exist in the first place, no amount of quality electronics will change that. It just isnt' there. Period.

Having said that all these units upscale nicely to 1080 and the image quality is excellent. I was watching Team America on my HD-DVD player and it was great.

Grant

If you compare a range of 768 and 1080 50” displays at 2.5 meters plus and put the difference down to resolution you are making a mistake.

Every display will look differed, some better then others, but the differences are dominated by factors other then resolution.

To make a comparison of resolution alone, try down scaling some top quality 1080 video to 768 and then back up to 1080 on a PC and display the original and scaled version on the same 1080 display. The downscaled version has had all resolution above 768 discarded, yet the on screen picture will be VERY difficult to distinguish from the original 1080.

If a small amount of sharpening is applied the 768 version will be so close to the 1080 version it just does not matter.

I have conducted this test many times myself.

[inspecthergadget]

Owen:

I think for enthusiasts no one will have anything but full HD in a few years time and the prices will get cheaper. The argument is therefore becoming a mute one as prices fall. I mean why bother not having full HD now that they have become so cheap(relatively).

The bigger the screen too the bigger the differences between full HD and lower resolutions.

Am I mistaken in saying that Pioneer are not dropping the prices of their full HD 50 inch plasma?

It seems like they will only ever appeal to a committed minority of enthusiasts if they are 2 - 3 times the price of other plasmas. They are good screens but not good enough to warrant that premium, IMHO.

IMHO wait a few months and pioneer full HD plasma will be well under $5000 and I guess the others maybe even cheaper.

Grant

[diesel]

Owen:

I think for enthusiasts no one will have anything but full HD in a few years time and the prices will get cheaper. The argument is therefore becoming a mute one as prices fall. I mean why bother not having full HD now that they have become so cheap(relatively).

I think Owen is only saying that if a 768p screen can display a better looking PQ than a 1080p screen, why would you buy a dearer 1080p screen? Sure prices are falling, and eventually there will only be Full HD models available (as well as the 'next big thing'), just like SD screens have but disappeared.

If you buy a car, would you buy one that was a joy to drive although it didn't have the best specs, or would you buy the one that had the best specs, but wasn't as enjoyable to drive?

[byt]

I think Owen is only saying that if a 768p screen can display a better looking PQ than a 1080p screen, why would you buy a dearer 1080p screen? Sure prices are falling, and eventually there will only be Full HD models available (as well as the 'next big thing'), just like SD screens have but disappeared.

If you buy a car, would you buy one that was a joy to drive although it didn't have the best specs, or would you buy the one that had the best specs, but wasn't as enjoyable to drive?

I personally thinks the Samsung/Pana 1080p models are better than their non-1080p panels for both SD and HD.

The only better 768p screen for the general consumers that could be better than majority of 1080p plasma is the kuro XD.

But that's is still debatable for some people.

However the best Kuro XD price is still dearer by 1k than what I could get for a PZ700. I personally like the 1080p plasma better and 1K cheaper the decision is easy.

And when you do photo gallery show on the 1080p plasma it looks so much better than the 768p models.

[Owen]

I think for enthusiasts no one will have anything but full HD in a few years time and the prices will get cheaper. The argument is therefore becoming a mute one as prices fall. I mean why bother not having full HD now that they have become so cheap(relatively).

Yes, 1080p will be the lowest res you we get in a few years, but by then higher resolutions will be all the rage and 1080 will be old hate.

Prices will always fall over time, but the point is at the moment people should be looking at what gives them the best picture at the viewing distance they will use and at the price they are prepared to pay, not buying a 1080 model over a 768 model just because it has a “Full HD” sticker on the front to impress their friends.

The bigger the screen too the bigger the differences between full HD and lower resolutions.

Yes, but not if the set is viewed from a proportionally greater distance. 50” is not a big TV, and you need to sit closer then many people will be prepared to for 1080 to be of much practical advantage.

Am I mistaken in saying that Pioneer are not dropping the prices of their full HD 50 inch plasma?

No doubt Pioneer will drop their prices over time, but so will everyone else.

While ever Pioneer have a superior product they should not be competing on price. If you have to ask the price you cant afford it.

It seems like they will only ever appeal to a committed minority of enthusiasts if they are 2 - 3 times the price of other plasmas. They are good screens but not good enough to warrant that premium, IMHO.

The 1080 Pioneers may be relatively expensive but the 768 models are not.

Remember it’s picture quality you are paying for not pixels, and if it where me, I would take a 768 Kuro over anyone else’s 1080 every time.

IMHO wait a few months and pioneer full HD plasma will be well under $5000 and I guess the others maybe even cheaper.

Probably true, but buy then the other manufacturers will have dropped their prices as well so it will still cost extra for a 1080 Pioneer, as it should IMHO.

You pay your money and you take your choice.

Personally I don’t see what all the fuss is about price. The 1080 50” Pioneer is cheaper then their 768 50” was a year ago and $3k cheaper then the 1080 50” it replaced. Just because other manufacturers have dropped there prices unbelievably does not make the Pioneers expensive, it just means the others are cheaper.

[chrissara]

Hello all...

this is my first post so i hope i do well.....

I actually own the Hitachi P50X01AU plasma tv and i must say that i am extreamly unhappy with it.....

i get alot of jidder in the picture during action sequences and most of the on screen text is jagard in appearance.

i know this i a fault with interlaced rendering and had i known that interlaced rendering was going to cause so much picture distortion i would have got a progressive screen instead.

i have read through all of the other posts and have found that this is a confusing topic....everyone seems to be an expert and that they know best!

heres my opinion from actually owing the product in question......I HATE IT!!!! PROGRESSIVE IS BETTER!!!!!

im actually going to go get myself a sony LCD 1080P TV, i know that it will be more expensive but i have seen it against my tv and several other plasmas (all playing the same content) and have found them to be the best!!!!

this 1080i/p is really getting to me...i want to understand, but it is hard when everyone else doesnt understand it as well......

all i want from my tv is, CRYSTAL CLEAR PICTURE, TRUE COLOUR, AND SMOOTH MOTON.

Will this sony do that????

Um your other username isn't lol'zr is it?

Which Sony model are you referring to.

[inspecthergadget]

All TVs have had similar posts about poor performance at one time.

Sometimes it is the TV sometimes not.

Edited December 5, 2007 by inspecthergadget

[inspecthergadget]

Chris:

Any TV you buy can have problems, whether it is a pioneer, panasonic, hitachi etc.

It can also be source material, connections interference etc.

I have run my Hitachi using all sorts of source material and it is fine.

It is hard to say though. If you are looking very closely at almost any picture bar even HD-DVD/blu ray you may see faults, no picture in fact is perfect. You may find motion judder too in almost any image depending on it's compression level even on HD-DVD I find some disks perfect and others not so. TV broadcasts sometimes highly compress streams so that you can get motion artefacts and jaggedness but this would be the case with any plasma.

This is nothing to do with the Hitachi. If you got a Sony or anything else you may well have the same problems so it pays to work through the problems systematically so that you don't make a time consuming and expensive meal of it.

Of course, it could be the TV but be sure of other things before you rush to that judgement. Start by making sure all your settings are default then maybe get your source like your DVD and player and connect to a unit in the shop and see how it runs.

Grant

Edited December 5, 2007 by inspecthergadget

[betty boop]

Thats a good point.I bought my current Hitachi 1024 x 1024 based on the fact that i liked the way it looked.Sure i liked the pioneer better at the time but i got the Hitachi for half the price and i have been happy with the bang i got for my buck ever since.It still blows me away with the upscaled dvd of Ghost in the Shell:Innocence and the blu-ray release of Tekkonkinkreet.If i had to list in order the picture i like best of the four 1080 plasma's i've seen it would be Pioneer,Hitachi,Samsung,Panasonic.

same here for the money it was the best I could find. and today absolutely love it with both hddvd and blu-ray. the pio to me too at the time I was buying looked washed out and seemed overpriced for me for what it delivered. yep the kuro at the present is sure nice as well but it is pricier and by a significant margin. its somethign every one will weigh up to decide for them selves what is best for them and their needs.

[Owen]

Hello all...

this is my first post so i hope i do well.....

I actually own the Hitachi P50X01AU plasma tv and i must say that i am extreamly unhappy with it.....

i get alot of jidder in the picture during action sequences and most of the on screen text is jagard in appearance.

i know this i a fault with interlaced rendering and had i known that interlaced rendering was going to cause so much picture distortion i would have got a progressive screen instead.

i have read through all of the other posts and have found that this is a confusing topic....everyone seems to be an expert and that they know best!

heres my opinion from actually owing the product in question......I HATE IT!!!! PROGRESSIVE IS BETTER!!!!!

im actually going to go get myself a sony LCD 1080P TV, i know that it will be more expensive but i have seen it against my tv and several other plasmas (all playing the same content) and have found them to be the best!!!!

this 1080i/p is really getting to me...i want to understand, but it is hard when everyone else doesnt understand it as well......

all i want from my tv is, CRYSTAL CLEAR PICTURE, TRUE COLOUR, AND SMOOTH MOTON.

Will this sony do that????

Interlaced display will give you smoother motion then a progressive display all else being equal, and true interlaced video most definitely will give you smoother motion then progressive video.

Standard SD CRT TV’s are true interlaced and you won’t find a digital with smoother motion then a CRT.

As for the text issue, its more likely a deinterlacing problem not an interlaced display problem. It’s hard to say without seeing it first hand.

[Owen]

How is this so?

Its is my undestanding that each line is painted Odd lines first then even lines second (or vice versa)?

If it is it would make sence to have a jidder while playing motion.

i can however understand why you would think that it would display a smoother motion tho...because you get more frames with interlaced signals.

If im wrong please correct me.

Thank you

Do you see problems on a standard interlaced CRT, know you don’t.

I don’t know what “jidder” is, but neither judder or jitter, both different things entirely have nothing to do with interlacing.

You only get more frames if the source is an interlaced video camera, for progresive source like film, 1080i and 1080p have the same frame rate.

[chrissara]

I would agree - the 1024x1024 Hitatchi I used to own (the 8000TA series) was an unusual spec. I found it however to be a very good Plasma screen.

The Sony X and XBR are a very good LCD as is the F series in the Samsung. On paper the Samsung is slightly better, but in real life QA issues appear to be plaguing the Samsung - you may get a good F series one but it is luck of the draw.

And to techsmith .... apologies if I can across a tad blunt. I am afraid I am a tad cynical of people who first or second post after joining up is to criticise a particular brand or model of a product. Unfortunately here on the forums (and admittedly I am not a regular here) there appears to be a trend of people joining up, criticising a product and never posting again or "trolling" the forum. Lol'zr was one you will see from a few pages back. He appears not to have posted (but has been on the forums) since being (and again I am being a bit blunt) "shown up" in this thread. Again apologies for the suggestion.

[sandman291au]

Come to think about it...could it be the internal HD Tuner causing this?

I dont get it as bad when i play a dvd.

Hey Tech,I have this TV also and have been having niggling issues with the HD tuner which have been addressed twice,and now totaly fixed and very happy.I'm in Sydney and Peter O' (Techie at H.O. North Ryde)at Hitachi is a champ and the man who knows what to do.Firstly until he comes,get into the DTT menu..Picture... then scroll over to the next page to Mpeg NR and move it to high(I know it sounds odd..and no it doesn't affect picture quality and sharpness)This eliminates that movement jitter and horizontal bars and blockiness your seeing.At this point I was rapped but at Peters insistence kept tabs on me for 2 weeks to make sure it was totally gone.He then came over and gave the unit a software update for the tuner which improved sharpness( and it did)and removed the necessity for high Mpeg NR.He also did a mainboard firmware upgrade,which again altered the default menu picture settings.Now as I see it the unit is as it should have been in the showroom.All other input sources were as you said ..perfect.Blue Ray..stunning.Only thing,the digital tuner still sometimes takes a long time to change channel.

[sandman291au]

Hey Tech,I have this TV also and have been having niggling issues with the HD tuner which have been addressed twice,and now totaly fixed and very happy.I'm in Sydney and Peter O' (Techie at H.O. North Ryde)at Hitachi is a champ and the man who knows what to do.Firstly until he comes,get into the DTT menu..Picture... then scroll over to the next page to Mpeg NR and move it to high(I know it sounds odd..and no it doesn't affect picture quality and sharpness)This eliminates that movement jitter and horizontal bars and blockiness your seeing.At this point I was rapped but at Peters insistence kept tabs on me for 2 weeks to make sure it was totally gone.He then came over and gave the unit a software update for the tuner which improved sharpness( and it did)and removed the necessity for high Mpeg NR.He also did a mainboard firmware upgrade,which again altered the default menu picture settings.Now as I see it the unit is as it should have been in the showroom.All other input sources were as you said ..perfect.Blue Ray..stunning.Only thing,the digital tuner still sometimes takes a long time to change channel.

Sorry Techsmith I never noted on your ID that your from Adelaide(not your fault ..lol) as far as I know Peter O'Neil is in charge nationally and you should ask for his help in particular as he has detail knowledge of this problem and will promptly help.Believe it or not Hitachi will go out of their way to help.

[Owen]

I’m sorry Owen; it seems your intellect is far too superior to answer my questions.

Why are you even a member of this forum?

And you didn’t even manage to answer my question.

I won’t be asking for your help again.

Believe it or not I did answer your loosely worded question, but apparently not in a way you understood or appreciated.

With a response like that I’m not sure you deserve help.

I don’t own the Hitachi, nor have I spent much time looking at one, however I owed a 57” true 1080i display for 2 years and still have a 34”, and have never ever seen any issues with motion on either set.

I even ran the 57” 1080i set side be side with my 70” 1080p set simultaneously for

a while from my HTPC and they never looked any different.

Your assertions about 1080i are misplaced, plain and simple.