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Spero D.

New Pioneer 8th Gen Plasmas 508 Etc

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Owen, as you probably have, I've read quite a bit about these new Pioneer Plasmas. The verdict that they represent a whole new level of "black" in flat screen (Plasma/LCD) technology is unanimous, and is verified by Nightbreed through his own eyes and experience with the technology.

Perhaps they do not equal the black levels of a good CRT or SXRD rear projection screen. Perhaps they do. Perhaps Nighbreed would like to comment if he has experience with the Sony Rear Projection models. Moot point anyway, because as you do not tire of repeating, the SXRDs are going to be no more, at least in Australia.

Many people, myself included, do not have a room which can be light controlled or dedicated solely to HT. I want the best screen I can get to watch sports in the daytime, the minimal amount of FTA TV (mostly news, current affairs, docos) I do watch, and DVDs. Most projectors don't cut it for daytime viewing. CRT is extinct. SXRD(rear projection) is not being pushed by the major manufacturers.

There is NO doubt in my mind that for movie watching and sports, Plasma is better than LCD. These Pioneers reportedly take Plasma to a whole new level. I have read one review which states that they are equal to SED - the bloke saw the two side by side. Not that this is particularly relevant as SED seems dead in the water while OLED is still on the "watch this space" list.

These comments on the black levels of the new Pioneer are along the lines of your dismissal of the new Pioneers because they don't make a screen of 70" or more. Give us less fastitious and/or cashed up posters a break, mate.

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You have taken my comments the wrong way mate. I am not criticising the new Pioneers at all, they are undoubtedly the biggest advance in flat panel technology in years.

I was simply commenting on the inappropriateness of making judgments on black levels without a dark viewing environment AND suitable video source, nothing more nothing less.

When someone says blacks look black we need to know the reference point. Compared to the black of a competing display viewed in the same environment, or compared to TRUE black of a totally dark room. They are very different yardsticks.

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Sony SXRD contrast ratio (using advance iris) - 10000:1

Pioneer LX508D - 20000:1

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I was simply commenting on the inappropriateness of making judgments on black levels without a dark viewing environment AND suitable video source, nothing more nothing less.

When someone says blacks look black we need to know the reference point. Compared to the black of a competing display viewed in the same environment, or compared to TRUE black of a totally dark room. They are very different yardsticks.

How do you know the demonstration was not in a darkened room? Was not specified in the original post but good chance it may of been.

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How do you know the demonstration was not in a darkened room? Was not specified in the original post but good chance it may of been.

It was in a room with only a few down lights. Quite dark in my opinion.

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Sony SXRD contrast ratio (using advance iris) - 10000:1

Pioneer LX508D - 20000:1

I am not discussing SXRD, so what is the point of your comment?

Contrast Ratio numbers, even if they are to be believed, tell you nothing about black level, as they are related to maximum brightness, just as much as blackness.

For the record, standard SXRD’s have been independently measured at over 13,000:1, and a modified one can easily exceed that number by 30% or more.

Black level is the important number not contrast ratio, especially when viewing in a dim or dark environment.

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It was in a room with only a few down lights. Quite dark in my opinion.

A good trick is to cup your hands over a black part of the screen to exclude as much ambient light as possible and put your eye to your hand. That gives you a much better indication of real black performance.

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I have now removed any reference to SXRD in my signature, because I am sick and tired of people wrongly ASSUMMING that I am always comparing displays to an SXRD.

Believe it or not I am objective.

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Contrast Ratio numbers, even if they are to be believed, tell you nothing about black level, as they are related to maximum brightness, just as much as blackness.

For the record, standard SXRD’s have been independently measured at over 13,000:1, and a modified one can easily exceed that number by 30% or more.

Black level is the important number not contrast ratio, especially when viewing in a dim or dark environment.

I thought it was the ratio difference between the 'darkest' black & the brightest 'white'. How else do you measure 'black'?

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Black level is measured in absolute terms (in ftL or Cdm2) not related to white level.

Contrast ratio is the peak white level divided by the black level, so a display with 20,000:1 contrast ratio has blacks 20,000 times lower then peak white level.

Black level can be calculated if peak brightness and contrast ratio are known and trusted, which is a foolish thing to do, as no standard measurement system is used by manufacturers. Published specifications are therefore almost useless.

A display with relatively poor contrast ratio that is not very bright, can easily have better blacks then a bright display with a better contrast ratio.

For dim or dark viewing conditions a bright display is not an advantage, its black level that matters.

In a relatively bright viewing environment blacks don’t matter as even average blacks will look good.

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I have now removed any reference to SXRD in my signature, because I am sick and tired of people wrongly ASSUMMING that I am always comparing displays to an SXRD.

As a proud SXRD owner, I'm not removing reference to it from my sig. ;)

Edited by drsmith

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Black level is measured in absolute terms (in ftL or Cdm2) not related to white level.

Contrast ratio is the peak white level divided by the black level, so a display with 20,000:1 contrast ratio has blacks 20,000 times lower then peak white level.

Black level can be calculated if peak brightness and contrast ratio are known and trusted, which is a foolish thing to do, as no standard measurement system is used by manufacturers. Published specifications are therefore almost useless.

A display with relatively poor contrast ratio that is not very bright, can easily have better blacks then a bright display with a better contrast ratio.

For dim or dark viewing conditions a bright display is not an advantage, its black level that matters.

In a relatively bright viewing environment blacks don’t matter as even average blacks will look good.

I thought the ANSI static test pattern was being used for contrast ratio. If not it is usually dynamic contrast ratio, yes? And nowadays the 'better' manufacturers will state what is static & what is dynamic in their specs, yes?

I agree with you on a dark environment for viewing DVD/Blu-Ray, as that's the whole viewing point of home cinema.

I have also noticed that cd/m2 is disappearing from manf specs.

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No, ANSI contrast is never used by manufactures, just some idealised maximum on off contrast that best suits them. There is no standard and even if there where, getting accurate and repeatable measurements of black level is very technically challenging.

Plasmas have dynamic contrast, even if they don’t say so in the specs. It’s not dynamic range expansion as is the case with the SXRD and LCD’s, but rather dynamic compression.

When Plasma’s are required to display a bright or predominantly bright scene, peak output levels are reduced or compressed by up to 30% or more. Full dynamic range or contrast ratio is only available if a relatively small proportion of screen area is very bright, and that is when you need it the least.

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Question!

What is better 5000EX or the 508 8th gen

I am about to get a 5000ex but with the new 8th gen coming will it be better

Chris

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New models are always better :P;)

...and cheaper (except during runout) B)

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Blacks on the 5000ex are not good. If you can wait for the new model, I would.

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It's a Full HD 1080p plasma screen - no tuner, speakers etc

A new 1080p 50" & 60" model should be out before Xmas...well before

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other then blacks, why is the 5000ex flagship

1080 resolution, which on a 50” is generally pointless.

Most people consider the 768p 507 a better display overall.

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1080 resolution, which on a 50” is generally pointless.

Most people consider the 768p 507 a better display overall.

Thats a big call! I'm pretty sure you would be hard pressed to find 1 person that's seen the 5000ex that would consider the 507 to be a " better display overall ". Resolution is just one factor that puts the 5000ex ahead of the 507.

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There are several members how have expressed that opinion in this forum.

Black levels on the 507 are better, no question, and the resolution advantage of the EX5000 is only usable at very close viewing distances.

I have never done a direct comparison between the too, as I have no interest in 50” displays.

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No, ANSI contrast is never used by manufactures, just some idealised maximum on off contrast that best suits them. There is no standard and even if there where, getting accurate and repeatable measurements of black level is very technically challenging.

Plasmas have dynamic contrast, even if they don’t say so in the specs. It’s not dynamic range expansion as is the case with the SXRD and LCD’s, but rather dynamic compression.

When Plasma’s are required to display a bright or predominantly bright scene, peak output levels are reduced or compressed by up to 30% or more. Full dynamic range or contrast ratio is only available if a relatively small proportion of screen area is very bright, and that is when you need it the least.

Needs Standards Australia to step-in & have it mandated by the Government. It applies to many other industries whether it be clothing, locks or orange juice

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Only problem with Fed Govt mandating is that we might end up with inferior standards (ie 576p = broadcast HD) :wacko: or worse still they come up with some innane measure which due to the small size of the Aussie market may see the number of compliant manufacturers decline and we get less choice :(

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Only problem with Fed Govt mandating is that we might end up with inferior standards (ie 576p = broadcast HD)

Don't agree with you here - do standard definition digital televisions still exist?

Its inevitable that HD will be the standard.

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Don't get me wrong, I agree HD will be the new standard, but my point is leaving it up to the Govt may mean that you sometimes end up with less not more. Usually it's the market that drives innovation and an increase in standards.

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