Jump to content

Samsung TV Owners & Discussion Thread


Recommended Posts



If it's the same type of reflective surface on my dell laptop screen this is not entirely true.

I think i recall others complaining about light reflecting off the screen depending on placement.

He is a salesman don't forget, he just wants to sell you somthing so take most of what he says with a grain of salt.

Does anyone here have their panel facing a window, I would be interested if you experience any serious reflections.

Thanks

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Howdy matey,

So I guess there is a stock pile of them around.

Where are you from?

What did you pay?

I'm from Canberra, bought from the Fyshwick store.

Paid $3000 with 24 months interest free + extended warranty.

I have my panel with a window directly to the right of it and in all honesty I've not really noticed any reflections while using it. The reflections when it is off aren't even that strong.

Dan.

Edited by Sicarius123
Link to comment
Share on other sites

"simply get repeated frames to fill out 100Hz, and even 72 or 120Hz (3:3 or 5:5 pulldown) when receiving a 24p signal, so we get proper 24p playback.

Huh?? Motion plus is touted as being an interpolation engine, nothign more nothing less. where you get the idea that its using a pulldown service is beyond me, but 3:3 and 5:5 are non existant in the real world.

In essence the ingeine is drawing in 76 additional frames form a sourced 24fps, Now the odds of this actualy working properly is pretty astounding considering editors have been searching for this kind of hardware for many years.

IF samusng can pull off an interpolation like this, then they can easily patent said technology to NLE's whereby slowmotion will be perfect, and in full rame, full res with next to no shutter distortion.

In any case, motion plus is not totsed as a repeatable frame alborythm.. we've already got that when running the panel in standrd mode 50/60hz. With 24p footage on an interlaced stream (ie 24p from BD disc), the screen SHOULD adjust itself to 60hz, to operate a 2:3 pulldown service. ))

" We havent even had confirmation whether when Motion Plus is off, frames are repeated for 100Hz, or whether it actually drops back to 50 or 60Hz. "

((No but the site clearly "draws" out how it interpolates each of the 24 frames and draws up to "100" frames per cycle from this 24p source. The site is clear in how it describes the activity of motion plus))

And this stuff is so far beyond the Customer Support level of knowledge that it is pointless to waste time trying to get answers out of them... i mean they dont even know that 1009 firmware is out, when several people have sets that are running it! "

Agreed

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I just ordered the Samsung 52F81. The only concern I have is the relective screen since it will sit facing a large window. The salesman told me when the screen is off its reflective, however once its on there are no reflections.

Hmm, might have been better to ask that question before ordering.... not a huge problem though- might mean you need to close your curtains.

Yes, you will see reflections. Turning on the TV does not change the surface. You will definately need to close your curtains if the window is bright. Darker scenes on the TV tend to show up the reflections worse than brighter scenes.

These shiny screens are nice in a home theater room with no windows and no brightly colored objects, but for average everyday viewing environments they are not ideal.

Link to comment
Share on other sites



Hmm, might have been better to ask that question before ordering.... not a huge problem though- might mean you need to close your curtains.

Yes, you will see reflections. Turning on the TV does not change the surface. You will definately need to close your curtains if the window is bright. Darker scenes on the TV tend to show up the reflections worse than brighter scenes.

These shiny screens are nice in a home theater room with no windows and no brightly colored objects, but for average everyday viewing environments they are not ideal.

I did ask the question, thats why I went for LCD not a Plasma panel.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I dont mean to nitpick, but the accuracy or information provided on this entire sight has really left a nasty taste in my mouth.

"and even 72 or 120Hz (3:3 or 5:5 pulldown) when receiving a 24p signal, so we get proper 24p playback"

OK, fiirstly, theres no such thing as 3:3 or 5:5... there is no video stream in existance which works this way.

Seconfly, to get TRUE 24p out of a 24p source, be it native or within a 60i stream, the panle itself must support 24hz.

If the panle does not support 24hz, then the panel SHOULD jump to 60hz, as the only way to transport a 24p stream is withtn 60i transport stream.

With this, 60hz, will offer the cadeance of 24hz, due to he pulldown sercvice (2:3, or 3:2) Advanced pulldown is also avaialable through 2:3:3:2, however this is onl yfor source acquisition, not delivery streams.

In any case, if your running 72hz with a 60i, or 24p, it will NOT offer the cadeance (motion) of film, as the screen has refreshed 2 to 3 times for every frame seen.

This is proabbaly as close to frame duplication as one can get, but not in the sense of interpolation.

Interpolation (motion plus) is an entirely different beast to refresh, and sadly Samsung have misguided the punters in wht 100hz REALLY means compared to 100fps interpolation from a 24/25p (or any other source, which is wht this motion plus crap really is.

I would like to see what 50fps double pal would look like with Motion plus on...

Personaly, i liked what i saw in the store and bought it. Motion plus wasnt the reason i bought it, BUT as this "feature" has increased the price of this unit, then I do have a concern in that regard.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Does anyone here have their panel facing a window, I would be interested if you experience any serious reflections.

Thanks

my lcd panel directly faces the window. reflection problems do exist. but i wouldnt say its extremely bad and unwatchable. but yes, there is reflection.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I dont mean to nitpick, but the accuracy or information provided on this entire sight has really left a nasty taste in my mouth.

"and even 72 or 120Hz (3:3 or 5:5 pulldown) when receiving a 24p signal, so we get proper 24p playback"

OK, fiirstly, theres no such thing as 3:3 or 5:5... there is no video stream in existance which works this way.

Seconfly, to get TRUE 24p out of a 24p source, be it native or within a 60i stream, the panle itself must support 24hz.

If the panle does not support 24hz, then the panel SHOULD jump to 60hz, as the only way to transport a 24p stream is withtn 60i transport stream.

With this, 60hz, will offer the cadeance of 24hz, due to he pulldown sercvice (2:3, or 3:2) Advanced pulldown is also avaialable through 2:3:3:2, however this is onl yfor source acquisition, not delivery streams.

In any case, if your running 72hz with a 60i, or 24p, it will NOT offer the cadeance (motion) of film, as the screen has refreshed 2 to 3 times for every frame seen.

This is proabbaly as close to frame duplication as one can get, but not in the sense of interpolation.

Interpolation (motion plus) is an entirely different beast to refresh, and sadly Samsung have misguided the punters in wht 100hz REALLY means compared to 100fps interpolation from a 24/25p (or any other source, which is wht this motion plus crap really is.

I would like to see what 50fps double pal would look like with Motion plus on...

Personaly, i liked what i saw in the store and bought it. Motion plus wasnt the reason i bought it, BUT as this "feature" has increased the price of this unit, then I do have a concern in that regard.

Well i may not be using the right technical terms however I do know that it is possible for set to display 24p content "properly" as long as it's refresh is a multiple of 24Hz. On AVS forums, they callthis 5:5 pulldown, when each frame is repeated 5 times. As opposed to 3:2 pulldown where one frame is repeated 3 times, the next 2 times and so on.

And why would the cadence not be maintained when refreshed at 72Hz or 120Hz? Each frame is refreshed 3 times (or 5 times), so each frame is shown for 1/24th of a second??? Doesnt this maintain the original frame changes 24 times a second cadence?

What i am saying is i dont want interpolated frames, and i dont want 3:2 pulldown as it creates artificial judder because one frame is shown longer than the next! I simply want 24 frame material to be played back with each frame displayed for 1/24 of a second. On a 120Hz refresh tv (like the F81's equivalent US model) this would mean each frame is shown 5 times... 5 * 24 = 120. The Sony Bravia also apparently does this correctly. Pioneer Kuro's do it properly by changing the drive mode setting which sets the refresh rate at 72Hz, and each frame is shown 3 times (3 * 24 = 72).

Now i know that Motion Plus is a frame interpolation engine, and i also know that our set in Australia is apparently 100Hz (however it is still possible it is 120Hz as well, like the USA set). The USA model and its 120Hz refresh rate, apparently as of the latest firmware version, made it so that when AMP (Auto Motion Plus ie the interpolation) is turned OFF, then it will just repeat the original frames rather than insert interpolated ones. I would like our set to have a similar functionality. So that would indicate that you dont have to have AMP on to get the 120Hz.

I am just saying i would like a similar update for our set, so we can have 24p playback (at 120Hz) without 2:3 pulldown OR interpolated frames (not that you can do the latter anyway, since Motion Plus stutters when you turn it on on a 24p source, NOT that i want it on anyway as mentioned). I guess it comes down to whether the screen can do the refresh rates of 100 and 120, WITHOUT motion plus (interpolation) turned on. It appears the US set can, so i would like ours to as well (and i would also like ours to go to 120Hz for 24p content, since that is a multiple and would allow the 5 * 24 = 120). The service menu of our set does have some entries in there saying 120, so we hope this is the same hardware etc as overseas... and it wouldnt make sense for there to be too many changes for the Australian set, given we are a smaller market

Clear as mud?

Edited by scarecrow420
Link to comment
Share on other sites



Take a look at this thread on AVS forum which lists sets that do "true" 24p playback http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=997138

The US model equivalent of our LA-46F81 is LN-T4671F and as you can see it is listed there as "Samsung LN-T4671F (1080P/24 correctly refreshed at 120HZ when Auto Motion Plus (AMP) is turned off)"

It has a link to an ultimate AV mag review although i didnt see any direct confirmation in that review of "perfect" 24p playback without 3:2 pulldown but i didnt read the whole thing. It does say in the conclusion though, that even when AMP is off, the set still always refreshes at 120Hz. So hopefully this proves/indicates that you dont have to have interpolation (Motion Plus) on, to get the higher refresh rate.

edit: found it, on the first page, it says when AMP is off each frame from 60p content is played twice, and each frame from 24p content played 5 times. It doesnt mention this is only as of the latest firmware update with the "AMP fixes" although i know that from following the owners threads over at AVS

Also you will notice alot of reference to "5:5 pulldown" etc over there, Padre, so that is why i have been calling it that

Rest assured if it is listed in that AVS thread then it has been confirmed to do so. The guy is basically a nazi regarding what sets are allowed on the list, and infact the last time i looked at this list, the Samsung _wasnt_ on it...

Edited by scarecrow420
Link to comment
Share on other sites

"my only other complaint is with the Auto Motion Plus processing, which causes significant artifacts in certain types of images even as it's sharpening objects in fast motion. I ended up keeping it off much of the time, which defeated much of the purpose of a 120Hz refresh rate (even though the set always displays frames at 120Hz). If Samsung can fix these issues with a firmware update, it'll be among the best conventionally backlit LCDs available."

ok now that's two professional reviewers...

come on Samsung!

Link to comment
Share on other sites



There is some SERIOUS confusion floating around this wonderful world we call the internet.

There are severla thins to duly note when discussing 24p content. The first is the stream in which is it embeded, the second is the refresh rate, and the third, in this case, is teh interplation engine.

"Well i may not be using the right technical terms however I do know that it is possible for set to display 24p content "properly" as long as it's refresh is a multiple of 24Hz. "

Agreed, howevr for NATIVE 24p 24hz is required. you CAN playback 24p on other refresh rates, hell we've ben doing it since inception of DVD, but the point is that it needs to be made CLEAR what is what.

Yes, you can have 24p on 48hz, but that simply means teh creen has refreshed twice. It does not mean the material is within a 2:2 pulldown service. It just means the screen has refreshed twice. THATS ALL.

at 120hz it menas its REFRESHED 5 times. There is NO PULLDOWN in this regard, however you WILL notice the cadeance of 24/25 lost in anything above 70 hz or so. Its still 25p, but the screen refreshes so fast that the image moves more like interlaced.

I run 25p footage on an LCD monitor set to 75hz when i edit, and i have trouble eyeballing progressive, simply because the screen itself is compensating motion. If however i ran the screen at around 60hz as on my laptop, then its easily recognisable.

"On AVS forums, they callthis 5:5 pulldown, "

Well theyre wrong.. And i'll gladly argue with them till the cows come home. There is no such thing as 5:5.... please understand and accept this fact... everyone.... coz the more confusion thats out there, the more difficult it is to educate the punters in what theyre buying into.

when each frame is repeated 5 times.

((When each frame is repeated 5 times, it means its repeated 5 times.

Pulldown, specifically refers to a means of transporting 24/25p footage across a broadcast acceptable stream.

To do that, progressive MUST, upon delivery, utilise a 2:2 or 3:2 pulldown service. Whtehr it be native, or whether it be porgrssive segmented frames (ie 2 intelaced lines as opposed to 540)

It has absolutely NOTHING to do with however many times a panel is refreshed or updated. ABSOLUTELY NONE. ))

As opposed to 3:2 pulldown where one frame is repeated 3 times, the next 2 times and so on.

((Well that at least is correct. This is how pulldown works, however, it isnt actually repeated as you have mentioend. THere is no frame repetition aside from REFESH which is totally different to source frame doubling.

The playback device (any DVD layer with component or HDMI) removes the pulldown service of those redundant frames automatically.

In essence what you SEE is actually 24p within a 60hz display panel. If your panel supports 24hz, then it will play it back... its your panel only supports 50hz, then that too will display. The point is that it DOESNT MATTER what refresh rate your panel displays the material,. It will still be 24p/25p

What is transfered from disc to playback device is an interlaced stream, which is why the pulldown is required so as to make up the numbers (60i) Sadly this si a technical restraiction we have with NTSC power ratios, in addition to the old 50's film cadeance where studios were trying to process fim on the cheap and felt 24 film frames a second was a good way to maintain smooth motion but keep costs down. In the digital age, much like many directors and prodiucers these days, there is no further need for 24p, In fact, many are now pushing for 48p and 50p acquistion. The cameras can do it, the technology supports it, but the studios are scared to take that step))

"And why would the cadence not be maintained when refreshed at 72Hz or 120Hz? "

((Because the frame itself is refreshed as many times based on the differential of refresh vs actual frame rate. Fram numbers have absolutely NOTHIGN to do with refresh rate. Refresh rate however can sometimes affect the way progressive material is percieved. ))

"Each frame is refreshed 3 times (or 5 times), so each frame is shown for 1/24th of a second??? "

No, each frame is shown at 3 to 5 times, depending on the refresh. In turn, your eyes still visually see 24fps but the panel has updated within that same timeframe. To the human eye, its not noticable, but it depends on the latency of the panel itself. Some panels make progressie material move like interlaced material. Other panels have a built in deinterlacer, but the fact that EVERY LCD and Plasma panel is progressive, shuldnt make an iota of a difference

"Doesnt this maintain the original frame changes 24 times a second cadence?"

No because nothing has changed. 24p ios 24p regardless of how its displayed. HOWEVER, if the display refreshed in an odd way, such as 24p on 50hz, then the maths involved will push the panels processor. As an example, if you have 50i home video, and you run itas 60hz, it will carry a different "feel". The panel also needs to differentiate teh source input to the output, so its deinteralcing for one and secondly, it needs to be ableto display that within 60hz

"What i am saying is i dont want interpolated frames, "

Neither do it, bu ti wouldnt mind a refresh rate of 100hz.. thing is 100hz on an LCD panel is determined by latency and if 6ms on/off can equate to 100hz, then i'd REALLY like to see how they do this realtime and how they pull it off..... it would be an engineering feat... and the motion picture industry would lap it up like ice scream on a hot day...

"and i dont want 3:2 pulldown"

((Too bad, your stuck with it... its the only way to transport 24p native from disc to your playback device (ideally)

The other option, when dealtin with "native" is 24 Segemetned frames. This is pretty much an interlaced stream using only 2 fields. Most HDV and HD consumerb camera work this way becuase theyre interlaced sensors, which are cheaper than progressive sensors

Bck to the point. Some DVD players bypass this and rely on teh display to remove the pulldown, however essentially, its the playback device that picks up the metatag within the MPG2 (or AVCHD stream) which tells it to remove ever second 4th and 5th frame (in 2:3) or second 3rd and 5th (in 3:2)

" as it creates artificial judder because one frame is shown longer than the next! "

Please read my desription of pulldown removable of 24p footage above. As an example, on a PS3, there is the option to send native 24hz through HDMI. Cool... this is pretty much teh switch which tells the PS3 to remove the pulldown itself.

If not, it will simply send a 60i stream straight from disc to your panel. Your panel will then display the footag, as you have described 3 frame to every 2, BUT to YOUR eye, you will not notice, becuase teh cadenace wihtin that frames per second differential HAS NOT CHANGED.

The removal of the pulldown service is just that. It allows one to see the the actual frames as they were intended. Any google search on pulldown will give you the same info i just provided..

"I simply want 24 frame material to be played back with each frame displayed for 1/24 of a second. "

Again, this wont ever happen.. its either 3:2/2:3 for NTSC or 2:2 for Pal. 24p is NTSC

"On a 120Hz refresh tv (like the F81's equivalent US model) this would mean each frame is shown 5 times... 5 * 24 = 120. "

However our voltage restrcitions and energyu efficiency regimes wont ever allow 120hz... not yet anyway... I could be wrong.. but Im yet to see a non digital display go this high thats within the consumer market... In the US, I dont doubt its 120hz.. i mean i saw it myself, but here in aus, we have different rules.

"The Sony Bravia also apparently does this correctly. Pioneer Kuro's do it properly by changing the drive mode setting which sets the refresh rate at 72Hz, and each frame is shown 3 times (3 * 24 = 72). "

And the point? Like i said, refresh is DIFFERENT from interpolation. What Samsung are selling as refresh, theyre actually meaning interpolation within that frame rate cycle.

We need to get this STRAIGHT before any further discussion takes shape.

Samsungs idea of 100hz refresh is to interpolate the 24frames into 100.

I do not know how these other manufacturers consider their views on 100hz, but i realy doubt that theyd be interpolating the frames as the samsung is doing

"Now i know that Motion Plus is a frame interpolation engine, and i also know that our set in Australia is apparently 100Hz (however it is still possible it is 120Hz as well, like the USA set). "

I HIGHLY doubt that it woudl exceed 100hz, simply becuase of our power differential

"The USA model and its 120Hz refresh rate, apparently as of the latest firmware version, made it so that when AMP (Auto Motion Plus ie the interpolation) is turned OFF, then it will just repeat the original frames rather than insert interpolated ones. "

As ANY tv would and should. As does THIS tv when motion plus is off. as does every other TV out there. The difference however is that the footage is natively played back as 60hz... NOT 120, not 100.

If the DVD has been produced in Australia, then it would have gone through conversion stages to 25p. This would then display through 50hz native.

"I would like our set to have a similar functionality. So that would indicate that you dont have to have AMP on to get the 120Hz. "

This is what ive been saying.. Give us teh 100hz, but kill the interpolation engine.

"I am just saying i would like a similar update for our set, so we can have 24p playback (at 120Hz)

((Aint gonna happen unless afew straings are pullled.. and if teh power isues are as reported (31w on standby) the it sure as hell wont pass tehenergy test))

"without 2:3 pulldown "

Soz, pulldown is here to stay. Its the ONLY way to transport a 1080p stream cheaply))

"OR interpolated frames"

Agreed

"I guess it comes down to whether the screen can do the refresh rates of 100 and 120, WITHOUT motion plus (interpolation) turned on. "

This is what ive been saying all along

"It appears the US set can, so i would like ours to as well (and i would also like ours to go to 120Hz for 24p content, since that is a multiple and would allow the 5 * 24 = 120). "

Again your confusing the situation dude... refresh dont mean diddly squat when dealing with 24p material. increments of 24hz benefit the panel in playback as it saves on the maths it needs to do. Aside from that, you WILL NOT NOTICE the difference between 24p on 50, 60, 72, or 100hz UNLESS the panel isa piece of crap with latency issues...

"The service menu of our set does have some entries in there saying 120, so we hope this is the same hardware etc as overseas... "

Can only assume it is, with a differential for our powr requirements

"Clear as mud? "

Its clear to me, as this is the arguemnt ive put forward for the last 3 weeks. The issue i have is with inaccurate information sourced from innacurate sources from consumers who have no true understanding of what theyre discussing.

In your case, youre repeating what youve read, sadly the information provided to you is innaccurate.

In turn, it can lead to a dangerous case of teh blind leading the blind and the consumer ends up with egg on tehir face becuase theyre arguing moot points which do nothign to assist in the rectification and moreso, the understanding of this problem.

Im happy to discuss and backup any and everythign i have written throughout this and other threads. Ive metioned before that I work with this kind of metarial on a day to day basis and its my livelihood. As a content producer, if i didnt know what i was talking about, id be out of business adn my international partners and competitors would be laughing at me all the way to bank.

Im not saying that what i say here is gospel, im saying that as a content producer, the restrictions we have are basd on the technological limitations of our times.

Im openly offering information about formats, deliveries, transport, codec, etc etc simply because this information is sorely lacking from the consumer standpoint.

In any case, i would strongly recomend that the further research be made in regard to what pulldown really is, how its used, why its used and how its implemented within content today. Reason i recomend research, is because bolocks information is being traversed as though its gospel and that really alloys me.

Like i said, i dont want to nitpick, but when info is innacurate, it jsut makes my job that much harder in the longrun

cheers

P

Edited by Padre
Link to comment
Share on other sites

To direclty quote another site.. whether this breaches any rules, i dont know, but im sur the mods can delete this if they need to..

"The Samsung 120HZ models will decode 3:2 pulldown from 60HZ material. "

As does any and every panel. HOWEVER, most playback devices (DVD/BD players) have an inbuilt pulldown removal service. Its a apart of teh MPG licensing agreement actually.. how good it is is another question, and its only based on MPG streams which carry the 2:3 tag. In any case, you can have 24p within 60i and teh DVDplayer NOT pick it up simply because the MPG wasnt encoded properly

Quote

“In any case, with a 60Hz signal, the processor is said to determine the original frame rate—converting it back to 24fps using inverse telecine if it encounters 3:2 pulldown..”

DO THEY KNOW WHAT TELECINE IS?

God what drugs are these guys on??

ALL plasma and LCD tvs have an deinterlace engine using pixel interpolation (note i said pixel, NOT frame).

They must if they want to scale and display SD or 720p across the entire 1080p panel.

"When Auto Motion is turned off and one is watching a BLU-RAY the set will repeat each 24fps frame until it reaches 120HZ. "

DUH!! This is waht theyve been marketing for so bloody long..

"This Samsung offers true 5:5 pulldown "

Oh god... no wonder consumerism is going down the drain.. the Samsung DOESNT offer 5:5 pulldown, it offers an interpolated average of full frames within a 100hz cycle.

PULLDOWN HAS NOTHING TO FRIGGIN DO WITH IT!!!! PUlldown is a SERVICE which is used to TRANSPORT a friggin progressive frame in digital format. ARGH!!!!

"and the image from BLU-RAY will look like 35MM or 70MM film instead a artificial smooth 60HZ video look. "

WTF?? Film is displayed at 24fps... how the HELL does interpolated 24hz offer a field of vision as found on 35 or 70mm film?

THeyre totally different issues altogether.

Motion cadeance and aspect ratio have absolutely NOTHING to do with the other... what are these guys drinking.. seriously...

OMG... WTF is this world coming to when morons write reviews like this and its taken as gospel...

God help the consumer... coz Ive done my bit

Edited by Padre
Link to comment
Share on other sites

why do you need 3:2 pulldown to transport a 1080p/24 signal? Isnt the whole point of BluRay etc that it is stored on disc at 24 frames, and can be sent natively at 24 frames. This isnt just "so the tv can do the 3:2 pulldown" - i mean, yes it will do 3:2 pulldown if it can only display at 60Hz but if you have a tv that will display each frame for 1/24th of a second using a 72/120/etc refresh, you have no 3:2 pulldown and no judder??

And what you say about the sasmsung only having interpolation... if that review and samsung engineers say that the US set when presented with a 24p signal it will repeat the frames (NOT interpolate/make up new frames, simpoly REPEAT them) then why do you still maintain that it can only interpolate, and not repeat?

and whether i am using the wrong terms of refresh, frame rate etc... why do you say it doesnt matter? UInless 90% of the stuff on the internet and AV Science forums is plain WRONG, then you CAN notice 3:2 pulldown because it creates judder in slow moving horizontal pans for instance. How do you fit 24 frame content into a 60 times a second or even 50 times a second refresh rate properly? You say a set just needs to do more processing in those cases, but how can it be smooth with each of the 24 individual pictures on screen for the exact same amount of time (eg 1/24 of a second) unless it has a refresh rate of a multiple of 24.

Also i am purely talking about BD and HD-DVD which are stored at 1080p/24 on the disc. Not PAL or NTSC DVDs which are filmed at 24 frames then stored on disc as 50 or 60 frames, not broadcast tv with interlacing or anything else. I know i am not getting all of the technical terms right but i find it hard to believe that everything i have said (and yes i am basically regurgitating what i have re4ad/learned elsewhere but from many different sources is "wrong"

What about this guy: http://hometheatermag.com/gearworks/607gear/

As i understand it, he is very well respected and seems to say alot of the things i have been trying to say. Note the article is from last year so dont pick on the fact he says none of the 120Hz LCDs do "proper" 24p playback, as that was before the current generation models were out

Edited by scarecrow420
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi All,

I'm new to this forum too but over the last few days I have been doing a lot of reading re the F81 jutter problem..

I too have recently purchased an F81 and apart from the Motion Plus problem I coultnt be happier. Anyway, so I could have an electronic record for future reference I sent an email to Samsung Customer Service yesterday and asked them to confirm if the 1009 update was available and how do I get me TV updated.

To my surprise they have emailed back and quote "Yes there is a 1009 Firmware, please contact us so we can your details to send it out...1300 362 603".

I have also spoken to Smith Western Penrith and they are coming out on Wednesday to do the update.

Hopefully this will fix or at least help the problem..

I will keep you posted on my developments..

Rgds

Hi patchie and welcome to the forum - I can't believe Samsung are now acknowledging the existence of f/w version 1009 after I was told by one of their disinterested, couldn't wait to get rid of me, Tech Support drones only about a week ago that none of them knew of any such f/w version. Perhaps it has now suddenly arrived (or perhaps more of them than we expect read this forum - I know Justin in their Promitons Dept does) - you say above that we can ring to add our details for them to send it out but then you mention Smith Western Penrith - I am in Adelaide so don't know who they are but am presuming they are a Samsung authorised Service Centre in Sydney? But wouldn't Samsung be sending out the f/w 1009 on a USB stick/flash drive like they have done with the f/w fix to get rid of the "wave" problem?

Also, don't hold your breath about f/w 1009 curing the Motion Plus probs coz another forum member posted that his new F81 already has f/w 1009 on it and yet it does suffer from the Motion Plus probs.

Cheers

powerman1

Edited by powerman1
Link to comment
Share on other sites



I just ordered the Samsung 52F81. The only concern I have is the relective screen since it will sit facing a large window. The salesman told me when the screen is off its reflective, however once its on there are no reflections.

Hi mdl - I have the 46" F81 and have no probs whatsoever with reflections off the screen and I have it in my lounge room with a big west facing window (to the left of my TV) that cops the late arvo sun - so, in short, don't worry - as I've posted in here recently, they must have done something special to the F81 screens to make them as unreflective as I am finding mine:-) My previous Sony 68cm CRT TV was virtually unwatchable in exactly the same spot where I now have my Samsung F81 TV when sunlight was coming in that west facing window.

Cheers

powerman1

Edited by powerman1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

hey guys, not sure if this is the right thread to ask this in but here goes.

looking to get a 46" N8, M8 or F8 (not fussed which one, but not willing to pay much more for the M8 over the N8, willing to pay maybe $200 more for the F8) - whats the cheapest price people around adelaide (or in general i guess) have been getting them for?

hoping to pay maybe $2300-$2400 for the N8/M8 or $2600 for the F8. a few pages back someone said they got the F8 for $2700 from JB but that seems unbelievable to me! that was the price of the N8 after asking for a better price from the JB sales guy in west lakes (i didnt bother haggling further as i was just probing for info).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

"why do you need 3:2 pulldown to transport a 1080p/24 signal? "

Because of the frame rates set within NTSC/USA, their voltage requriements of CRTs forces 60hz, in turn, 24p cannot stream unless its running along teh same frequency. I didnt make the rules dude, i just work with em...

with HD, to be honest, there really SHOULDNT be a need for this, as not only does it take up cruscial storage space, but is also render intensive.

"Isnt the whole point of BluRay etc that it is stored on disc at 24 frames, and can be sent natively at 24 frames. "

No, DVD already does this.. do not ever forget that DVD inherantly runs at 24p if ur playing region 1. Region 4 SHOULD be converted to 25p, but in most cases its not.

As for the point of bluRay, well, XDCam (the original bluray) was designed as a means to get rid of tape altogether. it was also designed as an archival and an online/offline media acquisition which allows for near instant access to any media recorded without the need to transfer tape footage to HDD.

When XDCam went hD, we were offered variable 35mbps or constant 25mbps @ 1440x1080, or with the newer update running 1920x1080@ variable 35mbps.

The first, is akin to what we now see as HDV. the othes are strictly long GOP MPG2, which is near identical to the BluePrint MPG2 Standard used in BluRay.

This eventualy swam its way into the prosumer and consumer markets.

1920x1080 is only now kicking in but sony perfected it with the EX1 and PS3, so streaming is and never reallyw as an issue.. people jsut didnt have the means to edit or deliver it.

In any case, BD is all about bandwidth. It allows for a through put of up to 35mbps realtime. This means larger bitrates can be used, musltiple streams can run without much fuss and data access is no longer an issue.. for the professional or the consumer.

"This isnt just "so the tv can do the 3:2 pulldown" - i mean, yes it will do 3:2 pulldown if it can only display at 60Hz but if you have a tv that will display each frame for 1/24th of a second using a 72/120/etc refresh, you have no 3:2 pulldown and no judder??"

Pulldown is within the transport stream only. If your playback device supports progressiev scan, then pulldown is removed in that step.

As an example

DVD of Transformers

put into a DVD player with componnet and set to Progressive scan

Compononet cables to panel.. ANY panel

TV set to Auto (ie auto adjust for signal)

Insert disc... disc feeds 60i signal to D/A or D/D converter

DVD player picks up pulldown metatadata within mpg stream. Removes redundant frames

24p native signal then sent to playback device.

Playback device, displays image, irrespective of refresh rate

Now if the DVD DIDNT pick up the pulldown tag, thats ok. It just means youre getting 2:3 signal through 60i

Panel on Auto, BOOM, 60hz, 24p... no bnrainer

Panel on 50hz PAL... no problem.. its jsut a refresh and wont make a difference.. it may display with some jitter (as in flicker, not an actual stutter or dropped frame)im specifically refering to high detail twitter.

OK, now al this is exactly the same with BD, or HD DVD.

Why?

The codecs are nigh on identical, the metadata is nigh on identical and BD is only an extension of existing technology.. only "bigger"

BD also allows the use of otehr codecs which DO offer native frame rates, but thats another thread altogether...lol

"And what you say about the sasmsung only having interpolation... if that review and samsung engineers say that the US set when presented with a 24p signal it will repeat the frames (NOT interpolate/make up new frames, simpoly REPEAT them) then why do you still maintain that it can only interpolate, and not repeat?"

OK, interpolation is a different beast to frame refresh. Thing to note is to NOT get it confused with native panel deinterlacing or field interpolation.

Frame refresh dont mean diddly squat. however for TRUE 24p, you must update said frame every cycle.

BUT not many can do this, and we've lived THIS long without 24hz, so its not gonna kill us if we dont have it..

Bot think of another issue... you can run 16fps 8mm film emulation, but it will still need to transport it acrss within 60 or 50 hz.

Refresh is the number of times the screen is "updated" ie, when the pixels fire and discharge.

Interpolation, in THIS sense, is a physical REDRAWING of the frame in which we see.

So its not just refreshing, but its also "drawing in" for every hz it cycles.

Samsung is claiming to offer 100hz, but to do so, it must DRAW new frames. This is how theyre selling it. There is no mention of 100hz WITHOUT this interpolation taking place.

In turn its drawing 76 ADDITIONAL frames from a sourced 24frames. ANY editor will tell you that this is nigh on impossible and artefacts are not only seen, but to be expected. Consider that you are CREATING at least 75% MORE data sourced from 1/4 of teh actual output. 75% of what you would supposedly see is not real;y there.

ANYONE would tell you that yes, its possible.. how god it looks is another thing.

Hell i can grab a 5 second video clip and run it slowmotion down to 3x its actual speed...

How accurate each of those newly drawn frames are remains to be seen, but in most cases, it ISNT, and its susseptable to errors such as high speed flash or fast motion.

This is inherant of the algorythms used.

I can show you an example if you really want to jsut PM me and ill send you a link to my showreel where a perfect example of this is visible.

Its the same theory

ANY screen can refresh so long as its latency can keep up, but drawing in those 76 "frames" is a different matter altogether. This is what needs to be understood on the outset.

"and whether i am using the wrong terms of refresh, frame rate etc... why do you say it doesnt matter? "

Oh but it does. When offering THIS kind of info, its imperitive that it is accurate. Refresh is different to fram rate, pulldown is different to interpolation. Its VERY important to get the terms correct, becuase not only does it show that the research has been made, but that you also understand teh research behind the words being spoken.

Im not doing this for me. Hell i know enough to know what i need ot know to make a living and pay my bills, but for the punters out there who want to know how this stuff works, its very important to get it right.

"UInless 90% of the stuff on the internet and AV Science forums is plain WRONG, then you CAN notice 3:2 pulldown because it creates judder in slow moving horizontal pans for instance. "

This is inherant of ANY progressive scan material. If your camcoder can work in 'frame mode" you can also emulate this. This is a nuance of the format. It also has ALOT to do with motin blur and shutter speed. Progressive scan footage in 24p shoudl be filming in 1/24 or 1/ 48 (or 180degrees in film terms). THis allows for clear image, plus the right amount of motin blur. Any faster, such as whats seen in Gladiator, then you will notice that 'jump"

Again, this "judder" is inherant of teh progressive scan format.

You dont notice it much on CRT tv's becuase the time it takes to adjust the tubes luminance, blur has already taken place. In addition, most CRTs' are interlaced, so the TV itself (CRT) is REINTERLACING a progressive source (if the DVD is connected via component to CRT tv)

Now THIS is where that refresh comes into play...

If a CRT cannot refresh fast enough, then motin trails and blur is seen. Even though it may not be on th materal itself.

With LCD, this issue isnt as prominant, and al the defects of the material can be seen moreso than they would on a CRT

PHEW.. god im getting tired..

"How do you fit 24 frame content into a 60 times a second or even 50 times a second refresh rate properly? "

this is why pulldown was invented... so you CAN fit 24frams within a 60i stream, which can be played back either native 60i, or 24p depending on the pulldown removal service. Thats why its refered to as a service. In Pal land, you will only se 25p native (usualy 720p) or 25progressive within a 2:2 pulldown (what we usually use) or more recently 25 progressive segemented frames. Which Splits the one frame into 2 fields, top and bottom, and is refreshed consequcatively.

"You say a set just needs to do more processing in those cases, but how can it be smooth with each of the 24 individual pictures on screen for the exact same amount of time (eg 1/24 of a second) unless it has a refresh rate of a multiple of 24. "

Thats my point.. its NOT. Yes its viewable, but its not native and its alot smoother the faster your refresh rate goes.

For native 24p, to be seen as native 24p, in full res and with a proper refresh (ie screen update) rate, it must run through 24hz.

Thing to note, is that 25p isnt even supported with BluRay. It seems this will be an issue for years to come until 25p IS supported... but i doubt that it will.

BUT heres the thing, to deliver 25p, it must be within a 50i stream, which IS supported...

Thats the Gotchya...

"Also i am purely talking about BD and HD-DVD which are stored at 1080p/24 on the disc. "

So am I, but DVD has used this technology since inception. What your failing to acknowledge is that the 1080/24p "lives" within a 60i stream. Not 50i, not 60p, not 30p.

"Not PAL or NTSC DVDs which are filmed at 24 frames then stored on disc as 50 or 60 frames, not broadcast tv with interlacing or anything else."

But heres where your getting confused.. its the SAME THING.

Were stuck with 24p becuase of the tightasses in the movie studios post war time.

Weve adapted our technology here in aus to support 60hz because of the US open market.

In the past, 24p was played back on 50hz CRTs without a problem. This is no differnt to that.

The fact remains, that whether its DVD, BD, HD DVD, HDV, XDCam, BluPrint MPG2, MPG long GOp 422, theyre ALL using the same means of transporting the material. 60i for 24p or 50i for 25p

All ic an say is that you can verify my info here, by doing a simple search on 24p transport stream

" I know i am not getting all of the technical terms right "

I dont expect anyone to unless theyre really into this stuff

"but i find it hard to believe that everything i have said (and yes i am basically regurgitating what i have re4ad/learned elsewhere but from many different sources is "wrong" "

Not wrong, just innacurate to a certain degree. Its teh lack of information and technicality which makes it wrong as it implies other methods/means/processes which confound the issue and confuse the situation even moreso.

Like i said, Im happy to argue my knowledge for as far as the cows come home if it means educating afew people.

"What about this guy: http://hometheatermag.com/gearworks/607gear

What about him? Hes talking about non definable pulldown within a panels display. It makes no difference to BD, as each BD player MUST offer a pulldown service If it doesnt, it means its a different codec to MPG2. In turn, it still doesnt make a difference becuase what your physically seeing is the same thing youd have seen if it was native.

Like i said, I can show you different pulldown algorythms, but it seems these guys have it backwards.

The point is that you DONT WANT your TV to create a pulldown service (which is where this absurd 4:4 5:5 comes from. Why? Because what theyre refering to is got nothign to do with transportng the stream itself.

REFRESH does NOT mean FRAME RATE. PLease understand this

You might be seeing the 24p footage at 60fps(hz), but its still 24p and your eyes wont know the difference UNLESS you refresh increases or decreases. 24p will inherantly introduce even more judder, jsut bare that in mind

"As i understand it, he is very well respected and seems to say alot of the things "

Sadly, hes got it a little backwards. 24p has nothign to with HD exclusivity for one. Ive been shooting 25p now for over 5 years. the only reason i use 25p is becuase it offers higher temporal resolution than interalced... lined up, progressive scan offers at least 15% higher res line count than interlaced.

And this is SD, not HD...

When shooting HDV, i shoot 25SfP. This is a similar way of shooting progressive with the stuttery motion etc. The differnce? Different codec, different res, SAME transport algorythms... from 5 yrs back... makes no difference see..

So whats my point?

99% of commercial DVDs are progressive scan siply because it offers higher res, ie sharper image

A panel shoudlnt have to create a pulldown service, it would be nce if it offered a pulldown removal service though. But again, its the playback device that usually does this.

In regard to the panels, they each must deinterlace and interpolate 2 fields into one frame so as to display said interlaced stream on a porgressive panel. Exactly as ive described and now reading trough it, as this guy has described as well.

"i have been trying to say. Note the article is from last year so dont pick on the fact he says none of the 120Hz LCDs do "proper" 24p playback, "

Like i said, "prper" 24fps playback can only happen with a 24hz capable screen. The other refresh rates really wont make a difference to the human eye as its too fast for us to even notice.. consider that weve ben watching interlaced TV for over 50yrs...

The entire point im making is to not confuse refresh rate to interpolated frame rate.

Sadly Samsung have combined interpoation and used the commonly known form of Hz refresh to market a process which utilises both elements at once.

Like i said, there is no reference to 100hz WITHOUT the interpolation. They refer to them as one and the same, which is innacurate.

For one to work (ie 100hz) interpoaltion must take place. For the Samung F series in any case

If i could get 100hz out of this thing without having my frames drawn from virtually nothing, then i'd be happy

Link to comment
Share on other sites



  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.




×
×
  • Create New...
To Top