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Sony Bravia 3lcd Rear Projectors - Any Good?

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ok so I changed the refresh rate to 50Hz... I notice little change.

treble,

Thanks for the info.

It may be worthwhile comparing 50hz and 60hz on a program that has text scrolling across the bottom of the screen. The ABC midday news is a suitable program as it has financial information scrolling across the bottom from right to left. I notice slight motion judder when viewing this on my 60hz Dell widescreen monitor.

Comparing HD @ 50Hz & 60Hz, I would say I prefer 60hz the motion blur is much less in my view... so to recap

we went to very low levels of motion blur 2 day ago on 1024x768 down to perhaps 50% of that level of movement when we went to 1280x720. Now I think we are less than half again on HD. and to be honest sometimes there is none visible at all....

Now I am talking about very small areas.... around mouths and fingers...other than that there is not much

Interesting. How close are you sitting to the screen to detect this ?

well this is now truly impressive in my view. I think people wants to compare this with the LCD panels

Assuming that you are using an LCD monitor (or a CRT monitor ?) as your main PC monitor, how does the black level compare with your PC monitor when the room is darkened ?

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It may be worthwhile comparing 50hz and 60hz on a program that has text scrolling across the bottom of the screen. The ABC midday news is a suitable program as it has financial information scrolling across the bottom from right to left. I notice slight motion judder when viewing this on my 60hz Dell widescreen monitor.

Will try and find something like this to look at and let you know what I think

Interesting. How close are you sitting to the screen to detect this ?

ATM it is 2.8m. I can go back 1 - 1.2m but my old crt is in the way and its too heavy to lift on my own. I am keen to move it and push back. I do expect this to become less of issue at 1m further back.

Assuming that you are using an LCD monitor (or a CRT monitor ?) as your main PC monitor, how does the black level compare with your PC monitor when the room is darkened ?

to test I used a CRT PC Monitor. I can't clone the tv program on 2 monitors. video only seems to work on one monitor anyway... noticed this with avi's before but the tv window is a very nice black on the crt anyway so its a good comparison. I think the "in picture" blacks are close to 90%. Its my perception. When they are surrounded by colour they look darker, the edge bands are a little washed. When the "in picture" blacks meet those bands you can see they are the same.

hope I covered it all

treb

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Thanks treb.

With regard to overscan on HDMI, I contacted Sony this morning to see if there was any way this could be eliminated. After several transfers, I eventually got to someone who had access to technical staff.

To cut a long story short, the level of overscan can be adjusted. This is covered under "Display Area" on page 32 of the manual. I was advised that none of the settings would eliminate the overscan completly (pity), but that it could be reduced to "a couple of pixels" on the minimum setting. I was also advised that the same adjustments would be available on the SXRD model as well.

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drsmith

Coincidence? I found/stumbled on that setting last night when trying to find a way to reduce the red. It lets you make either -1 or -2 pixels adjustment. I didn't look further but I think thats the max.

I have a sony warranty card I thought might be of interest

Sony Extended Warranty Fees for AU - Extra 4 years & Free in-home pickup*

Bravia LCD Rear Projection TV < $5,000.00 RRP - $562.00

Bravia LCD Rear Projection TV > $5,000.00 RRP - $662.00

Bravia LCD Television < $3,000.00 RRP - $345.00

Bravia LCD Television $3,000.00><$5,000.00 RRP - $640.00

Bravia LCD Television > $5,000.00 RRP - $750.00

*=1.4 included in the Standard Warranty for Australia & New Zealand is an in-home pick-up service for television receivers with screen size greater than 67cm provided the pick-up address is within 25kms of the nearest Sony Authorised Service Centre.

*=1.5 included in the Extended Warranty for Australia only is an in-home pick-up service for all products listed in the table overleaf, except where expressly excluded, and provided the pick-up address is within 25kms of the nearest Sony Authorised Service Centre.

The table is the list of TV's I noted above.

I am going to go back and look at that custom resolution again. I can get it correct top to bottom but side to side is still 1 - 2 pixels. I think its 2, if I do the -2 thing that would be exact, then I might try it @ 50hz. If it still looks like it did the other day I will just got back to what I have now.... but its worth investigating.

treb

please correct for spelling where necessary

treb

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Coincidence? I found/stumbled on that setting last night when trying to find a way to reduce the red. It lets you make either -1 or -2 pixels adjustment. I didn't look further but I think thats the max.

A ONE or TWO pixel adjustment ?

Give me strength! :blink:

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ok I am not going to say any more on that 1 or 2 pixel thing until I have had a proper look. I look at the manual p32 and it may be a different area as it mentions zoom.... zoom was basically 4 fixed settings.... needs checking... will do so and then tell you the facts..

how does that sound?

treb

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how does that sound?

Sounds good to me. :blink:

I just contacted Sony again to clarify the level of overscan adjustment and the best I could get from them was to go to a Sony store and adjust the settings myself.

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The problem with inspecting this range is that most stores arent really interested in displaying them-RPTV isnt fashionable and I suppose the profit margins on these lower value items dont make them worth promoting.

Neither the local Myers,Harvey Norman,BingLee,JB Hifi or Good Guys professed any real interest.

Finally,I visited Sony Central at Chatswood,where both the 50" and the 42" are on display,set up with FTA.

The 42" initially was playing what looked like an analogue tuner rendered picture,which looked awful,but this could have been caused by low signal strength.

When using a STB,the PQ was transformed and both on HD and SD,looked excellent,bettered markedly only by the X range playing a promotional DVD on a smaller screen.

The picture and brightness uniformity I thought were relatively good off axis-I was about 15% from the screen edge and it was still OK.

Vertically I was almost lying on the carpet,(having the locals jumping over me) about 2 metres back,but the picture was not noticeably degraded.

I feel this could depend on the program showing,adjustments and the screen size to some extent,as the 50" was not as good in these aspects and also initially suffered from dark shadows in the bottom corners,which however could be adjusted out.

It was hard to compare the black levels as there were no Pana plasmas around,but once again they looked OK compared to the other LCD sets.The X range of course was the stand out,not excellent but fantastic.

The fan noise to me was the same as any other screen fitted with a fan-I put my earhole right up next to it and could barely hear it.(yes the hearing aid was turned on).Admittedly,the environment wasnt dead still.

I queried fan noise issues on previous models and they could only remember a few being faulty and repaired.

To me this certainly isnt an issue nor is off axis viewing within sensible limits.

I spoke to Carlos,who when I questioned the price,immediately gave me a quite keen one.He will negotiate.

Would you believe their 5 year warranty for the 42" is only$139.95.

To me ,this range is the best value by far of any and I really cant see any technical reason not to get one.

Of course it all depends if you want the absolute best ,but for me in view of all the crap on FTA and Foxtel,this is more than adequate.

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Miki good points.. I revisited the question of vertical angled viewing and I think my belief that is was 50% down at say 15 degrees from vertical I dont think is right. I think you need to get closer to 30 degrees on the vertical. I also suspect that the tv is setup in some way so that the vertical angle you can sit below centre from is higher than it is above the set.... just a hunch ...did that make sense?

I also sat with my head knocking on the tv last night to see what I could hear in terms of fan...and it was inaudible...

treb

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The picture and brightness uniformity I thought were relatively good off axis-I was about 15% from the screen edge and it was still OK.

Vertically I was almost lying on the carpet,(having the locals jumping over me) about 2 metres back,but the picture was not noticeably degraded.

The example that I saw was being fed a component signal that noticably improved when connected using genuine component leads rather than a compoite + audio lead bodgied up for the connection (progressive output but not upscaled)

As for verticle, well, below the screen horizontal was fine but above dropped off to black very rapidly......

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Miki good points.. I revisited the question of vertical angled viewing and I think my belief that is was 50% down at say 15 degrees from vertical I dont think is right. I think you need to get closer to 30 degrees on the vertical. I also suspect that the tv is setup in some way so that the vertical angle you can sit below centre from is higher than it is above the set.... just a hunch ...did that make sense?

I also sat with my head knocking on the tv last night to see what I could hear in terms of fan...and it was inaudible...

treb

Treb,I ran your angles through the calculator and I agree :blink:

Dont know about viewing from above-didnt really worry about this,as I dont often view standing on tiptoe!

How does your pic look with Foxtel and generally apart from specific probs,are you happy with it?

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Miki sorry to say but I don't Fox at all..... I can tell you that the inbuilt tuner ..while efficient at discovering channels was pretty poor at putting them on the screen.

I find SD material ok for the most part. I am predominately an ABC/SBS view plus some motorsport on 10 and animated... simpsons or futurama...please don't judge :grin:

So I will use that as examples if I can... I find new simpsons very good quality. Smooth and fluid. Futurama is a little bit scaled but its an older show and older simpsons are the same.

SBS news material that is from the US, so I assume it is NTSC, scaled here is very poor. You can clearly see the scaling. Motorsport (F1) from Europe is the same. It is in 4:3 and very poorly scaled.

I watched a concert on JTV-XL (which is a key motivator in purchasing big tv for me) from The Doves. Filmed in wide screen on Film, You get the grain from the film and the rest is excellent. These are the best compromise in content that I have seen. By that I mean that its not so crisp but it is smooth and fluid. Very enjoyable and really validated my decision for me...thanks ABC

I have watched ABC HD and the sharpness is outstanding and I think comparable to the LCD's. Little motion blur in small areas which as discuss with drsmith is probably going to be sorted by moving the set back 1m more.... always intended to do this.

am I happy with it.... oh yes indeed. I think this Bravia range is going to go gangbusters in stores.

I read through this thread yesterday and had a few laughs at my earlier out of the box experience posts... so much has changed in a week.

I would get a job/get trained calibrating these tv's if I knew where to look, I think it would just be a complete buzz to help people set these up right and leave them in awe... thats all the job satisfaction a person could handle I think.. Sony Bravia Evangelism is only a short step away

treb

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I have been scaling video of all types via many various means on big screens for 6 years, and have never once seen a “scaling artefact” or any picture problems due to scaling.

Can someone please show me what “scaling artefacts” look like. :P

I will be VERY surprised if the picture issues you are having are attributable to scaling.

I recon you are just not used to looking at video displayed on a screen that size and therefore never noticed the poor quality that was always there, but not noticeable on a small CRT TV or PC monitor.

You should see free to air digital TV and Foxtel on a display almost double the size. :P

I watched the Bathurst motor racing on my 57” from 2.8 meters, and quality ranged from poor to down right dreadful. :D

I have also seen some of an old Bathurst race in 1080i from one of the network HD loops, and it looks sensational.

It’s simply a case of sh*t in sh*t out. :blink:

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Good one-Treb-just ordered a 42' from Carlos for delivery next week-so might give you the job of tuning it

:blink:

Judging from our other set,a Hitachi LCD-the program quality no doubt will vary greatly,from superb to bloody awful!

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I have been scaling video of all types via many various means on big screens for 6 years, and have never once seen a “scaling artefact” or any picture problems due to scaling.

Can someone please show me what “scaling artefacts” look like. :blink:

Ok Owen I would dearly like to know the correct term for so I'll try and explain it.

When I look at an image... say 2 talking heads the image looks great but when the peoples mouths move their mouths and the surrounds...gets distorted. To me it looks like a down sampling effect say when you stream a video.

Fingers are the same when they move... They move then stop, then you can see it, then in an instant the TV has caught up and smoothed it out. Sometimes you can make it out on peoples arms when they move them.. its like a motion blur or something... then on some footage.. same program it is not visible

Another thing on a different point is that objects that are thin and straight have this waviness to them, like a vent grill in a dashboard or a seam on a jacket...its like when someone goes on TV with a really glarey top that freaks the picture out... perhaps it related.. because its the edges of peoples fingers I notice.

so... what term should I use to describe that? Also as I have said.. a bit futher back and I will probably not see it anymore...

thanks

treb

good one Miki. I am sure your going to be happy with it .....but I dont do money back guarantees

I can tell you the working day is about 3 times as long at the moment...while I wait to get back to my tv

treb

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Ok Owen I would dearly like to know the correct term for so I'll try and explain it.

When I look at an image... say 2 talking heads the image looks great but when the peoples mouths move their mouths and the surrounds...gets distorted. To me it looks like a down sampling effect say when you stream a video.

Fingers are the same when they move... They move then stop, then you can see it, then in an instant the TV has caught up and smoothed it out. Sometimes you can make it out on peoples arms when they move them.. its like a motion blur or something... then on some footage.. same program it is not visible

Two things can cause that effect, video compression and noise reduction in the TV.

Try adjusting or disabling noise reduction.

Another thing on a different point is that objects that are thin and straight have this waviness to them, like a vent grill in a dashboard or a seam on a jacket...its like when someone goes on TV with a really glarey top that freaks the picture out... perhaps it related.. because its the edges of peoples fingers I notice.

It is normal for SD video to have aliasing (steps) on edges, especially on diagonal lines or lines that are almost horizontal.

Even 1080 video has visible aliasing if you sit close to really big 1080 display.

Upscaling helps reduce aliasing.

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ok try again. The -1 -2 pixel thing is actually slight overscan so it doesn't trim it overscans. It is found in the section Screen -> Display Area. The options are normal, -1 and -2.

I also set my desktop to 1232x680 and it is tight top n bottom. The sides are still overscanned by a bit. Must have been more than I thought.

I upped a few new pics of the desktop here. these are at that setting.

treb

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Thanks treb for the update on the -1 and -2 overscan settings.

When I look at an image... say 2 talking heads the image looks great but when the peoples mouths move their mouths and the surrounds...gets distorted. To me it looks like a down sampling effect say when you stream a video.

Fingers are the same when they move... They move then stop, then you can see it, then in an instant the TV has caught up and smoothed it out. Sometimes you can make it out on peoples arms when they move them.. its like a motion blur or something... then on some footage.. same program it is not visible

Another thing on a different point is that objects that are thin and straight have this waviness to them, like a vent grill in a dashboard or a seam on a jacket...its like when someone goes on TV with a really glarey top that freaks the picture out... perhaps it related.. because its the edges of peoples fingers I notice.

so... what term should I use to describe that? Also as I have said.. a bit futher back and I will probably not see it anymore...

Just to confirm, are you getting the above effects* only when you apply a custom resolution to minimise overscan or all the time.

* from a distance of 2.8m from the screen as advised earlier.

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Thanks treb for the update on the -1 and -2 overscan settings.

Just to confirm, are you getting the above effects* only when you apply a custom resolution to minimise overscan or all the time.

* from a distance of 2.8m from the screen as advised earlier.

Did you read my post?

A 42" screen at 2.8 meters is bloody small.

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Did you read my post?

A 42" screen at 2.8 meters is bloody small.

I thought treb purchased a 50", but I could be wrong.

What I am actually interested in is whether a custom resolution (to eliminate overscan) degrades the picture quality.

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I thought treb purchased a 50", but I could be wrong.

What I am actually interested in is whether a custom resolution (to eliminate overscan) degrades the picture quality.

Why would it? :blink:

A 50” at 2.8 meters is still small.

Been living with a 57” at 2.8 meters for 2 years and want to go up to a 70” at the same distance.

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Why would it? :blink:

I'm not interested in why, just if.

Been living with a 57” at 2.8 meters for 2 years and want to go up to a 70” at the same distance.

Have you seen the latest post on the SXRD thread ?

Silly question, of course you have.

Are you going for a drive to Sydney tomorrow, or are you going to wait until the 70" is on display ? :D

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Despite my long standing enthusiasm for SXRD technology, I am in no rush.

I am only interested in the 70”, and wont go out of my way to even look at a 60”.

I see no point in looking at something I have no interest in purchasing.

I don’t expect to even look at a 70”until next year, as I have no intention of shopping during the Xmas silly season.

If I like the 70” I will by one, if not I wont, simple as that. I am happy with my Hitachi 1080 57” CRT RPTV until I find something better.

I would also like to see the 65” 1080p Panasonic Plasma before I make a decision, although the Plasma blacks are not likely to pass muster with me.

If I do go with the SXRD, I will install a neutral density filter and black out the interior of the cabinet as soon as I take delivery. :blink:

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ok guys I have a bit more time to have a look at these q's

monitor is 50" and I am 2.8m right from center @ about 10 degrees.

now I put the tv back to the 720@60Hz and had a look at SBS HD World news. Then I went to the custom resolution 1232x680@60Hz and I didn't think it looked any different

Next I went ABC HD on Glass House. I looked at 720 then custom. I see no real difference. If I was to choose I think I would be just as happy with the custom resolution. ... is it slightly better? possible hmm definately not worse. It is all still in proportion

anything else I can tell you?

treb

*edit. I think the custom resolution may be just a bit smoother..... just a bit... then it becomes perception i think.. hehe

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