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BlueJ

Sony Bravia 3lcd Rear Projectors - Any Good?

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I was briefly at Sony Central in Perth today where I asked about online access to their user manuals. I was advised that they could be found on this site. User manuals can be accessed from "Online documentation" on the left hand side of the page, half way down.

There are no manuals with a precise match to the models on Sony Australia's website (KFxxE200), but there are manuals for the models KF-xxE200A, where xx is the size 42", 50" or 55".

The rear pro units did show variation in brightness whan viewed off axis, much more so in the vertical than in the horizontal, but I found that this was not an issue when viweing the unit at a normal viewing distance either directly in front or slightly either side, provided the units were being viewed at eye level. I would suggest that anyone considering purchasing these rear pro units check this out for themselves to determine whether it is an issue for them in their viewing environment.

I found the overall picture quality comparable with other Plasma and LCD's I have seen (at a normal viewing distance), but this was only with a limited range of video.

The Sony store also had a darkened area in which there was a 42" 3LCD rear pro and a 40" S series LCD. This provided an oppertunity to check out the black level and compare it to the LCD unit. The test was crude (DVD's paused at the start when showing "black", and I did get him to swap the DVD's over as there was a gradual variation from black to grey at the start of one of the DVD's). Also, I had to move sideways to compare the black level of the units from a position directly in front of each of them. While there was some light on the rear pro screen, I felt it's was less than on than the S series LCD.

I asked the salesman about the response time of the rear pro, and he said "8ms, the same as our LCD range". I must say that although the salesman was helpful with my requests he did not seem to know much about the units himself and was more interested in giving me his "sales spin" than providing useful information. Time was not on my side today, but I intend to return with a DVD of some AFL footage to see how the rear pro units handle motion.

As a side note for anyone considering the Bravia S series LCD, don't purchase it if you intend to use it in a darkened environment. The black level become very poor when this unit was viewed off axis. It reminded me of a Pyrod LCD I tried out a few months ago. This was not an issue however with the 3LCD rear pro unit.

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DrSmith the manuals with the codes KF-xxE200A are the manuals provided with the australian 3LCD RPTV's. My manual has the codes for each of the 3 sizes on the front cover. All with A on the end.

This is the part number for the manual. 2-693-391-11(1). it is available on that site you linked too.....there are two manuals.....very slow for me though..

anyway after comparing both manuals I discover the only difference is one is printed in malaysia and the other thailand. Wish I had of read the last page first.

the vertical viewing angle is definately very tight. When I stand the brightness drops by at least half and I would estimate the angle at about 15 degrees..somewhere there

I am developing a serious case of like for this tv. I am picking up DVI card monday and hope to take this relationship to the next level..... so to speak. Its doing a pretty good job with the wrong inputs for the material I am watching so I think it will be a quantum step up.

treb

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If you're worried about fan noise in the current KFE 200 series 3lcd Bravia-according to AV forum,this was an acknowledged and repaired under warranty, fault in a couple of previous model batches some time ago-but fixed by now.

I'm not quite sure to which "previous model batches" you refer.

If you mean the KFExxA10 series, then I am quite aware of the fan issues as reported by myself and many others in various forums.

One of my earler posts in this current topic (Sony Bravia 3lcd Rear Projectors - Any Good?) describes my experiences with noisy cooling fans in the KFE50A10 - and my hopes that the new 3LCD Bravias do not suffer from the same problem. I'm going to have difficulty auditioning either a 3LCD or an SXRD without ordering one in. When you live in the bush, some retailers are conscious of limited sales and lack of product turnover so they limit their holding stock to the more popular models.

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Yesterday, our antenna specialist did a walk around on the roof and found that our existing phased-array / mast amp. still the best for digital. He was able to wind up the gain in the amp; saying it should help. But, after he'd gone, we found we're still getting some signal losses at times.

Begs the question why the amplifier gain was set to where it was in the first place.

Was a check done before and after with a meter capable of measuring digital signals?

If yes, it would be interesting to find the rationale behind winding up the gain.

If no, then get another opinion.

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Been thinking of SXRD vs 3LCD - again.

Everyone's eyes are not equal and their response times (brain interpretation) vary from individual to individual.

Despite experts' findings and specifications regarding the human eye, some people can "see" blurred fast motion, even at 8ms. Others don't see it.

I recall reading about newer models (all brands) having faster response times; down from 11 to 8ms; which was supposed to remove the blurred effect. But I know that I can still see it.

When I questioned Sony about the response time of the previous Wega 3LCDs they told me they did not have the technical details but they thought it was about 8ms.

Note that the V series Bravias list a response time of 8ms?

Note that the 3LCD Bravias do not list the response time?

Note that the SXRD is listed as an incredible 2.5ms?

However, I spoke to a Sony techie last week and he said that the 3LCDs were likely to be 8ms and the SXRDs were actually considered to be double the listed 2.5ms; that is: 5ms - which is still pretty good. The techie didn't know why the 2.5ms becomes 5ms.

My current thinking about SXRD vs 3LCD has me considering the following features important to me:

SXRD is better because of its response time and full HD; with comprehensive picture control. But maybe won't be nice with average SD stuff. And they are too big for me.

3LCD has a slower response time; is not full HD; picture control may not be as flexible. But they will be more gentle with SD material and the 50 inch suits us fine.

And what about the cooling fans? :blink:

As an aside:

The V series 46 and 52 inch Bravia panels have a slower response time than the SXRD. But they've got full HD, good picture control, they're too small (46 inch) and far too expensive (52 inch - about $10,000).

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There was a HN store near where I work and they had the 50" 3LCD on display. Near it there was the latest model (600A) Panasonic 42" high def plasma. Both were on the same standard definition TV station (SBS), so I was able to compare the picture on the two units from a standing position about 1.5m from the 42" plasma and about 2.5m from the 50" 3LCD rear pro. The plasma was using it's own tuner and the 3LCD was connected via component.

I studied the video for some time and overall I found the picture on the 3LCD to be better than tha plasma. The difference is hard to describe, other than to say that the 3LCD's picture looked more natural. Even with the Plasma's brightness reduced, the 3LCD picture looked better.

The program I was watching occasionally showed some black and white still images. With those images there was a slight difference in the grey between the two units. To me the grey on the plasma looked more realistic with the 3LCD having a slight blueish hue in comparison. This hue in the grey was similar to what I noticed on a Pyrod 37" LCD that I tried out a few months ago. With the Pyrod, it was something I was unable to get rid of by fiddling with the settings. Overall there was a slight difference in hue between the two TV's. It would be interesting to know the perception of others on this.

With regard to motion blur, I watched some motor sport and I did not see anything that struck me as a problem. It is much better in this area than my Dell 2405FPW. A sport like AFL would be a better test however.

with regard to cooling fan noise, It was not something that stood out at either Sony Cwentral or HN, but that was in a shop environment.

For anyone in Perth who is interested in directly comparing the Sony 3LCD with the Panasonic plasma, the HN store I went to was the one between the Mitchell Freeway and the Freo railway line near the city. If I have time tomorrow, I will return to connect the 3LCD to a laptop.

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kendrew I wonder how you would go about guaging fan noise? Do you need to assess having the tv insitu or is some other measure going to work?

treb

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Begs the question why the amplifier gain was set to where it was in the first place.

Was a check done before and after with a meter capable of measuring digital signals?

If yes, it would be interesting to find the rationale behind winding up the gain.

If no, then get another opinion.

The gain was set, originally (well before digital arrived), to reduce the effects of 'ghosting' on analogue TV (our reception is dreadful; between hills, tall forest, etc.).

The techie upped the gain in order to present a stronger signal to the digital SD STB. Unfortunately, the Signal Quality is the culprit. The current STB (Strong SRT-5000) cannot cope with the mess.

The man did check with appropriate meter. He also cautioned against too strong a signal - apparently that has its own problems with digital.

However, I do agree, another opinion is worthwhile.

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kendrew I wonder how you would go about guaging fan noise? Do you need to assess having the tv insitu or is some other measure going to work?

treb

Absolutely, treble, you need to assess the TV in situ. There is no way you can compare in store with in home auditioning.

IMHO there is no better measure of assessment other than that of your own.

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I went to four places yesterday hoping to get a look at the 42" 3LCD. Only one shop had any RPTVs at all...they had the 50" 3LCD next to a Samsung 61" DLP. So overall in the four stores there were hundreds of LCDs, sixty or so plasmas.....and 2 RPTVs.....

Both RPTVs were hopelessly badly adjusted...and they were being fed from composite through a distribution amp, judging by the way the image was jumping around on both sets! Honestly, it looked like the signal was coming off a VHS tape - dirty heads, bad tracking and all! Are margins so tight that electronics vendors can't afford a $50 STB to hookup to a TV they are trying to sell for several thousands of dollars? WTF?

Nonetheless the 50" 3LCD set looked OK. The motor racing from the Gold Coast was being shown. Motion looked smooth, no problems there. It upscaled the (assumed) SD feed pretty well. With a good quality SD feed I think a reasonably close viewing distance would be possible before the inevitable source compression and scaling artefacts (576i -> 720p) became objectionable.

Looking at the set from directly in front, I did notice that the corners of the image were a bit darker than the centre. I have seen this on a few RPTVs and I do find it quite annoying if I can see it.

The only other problems were the lack of detail in dark parts of the picture (lack of contrast I guess) and the colour temperature (or maybe just the colour adjustment), as skin tones were greyish rather than pinkish. Certainly I would expect the colour to be good after properly adjusting the set.

At this stage the slightly dark corners and the lack of detail in dark areas would be the only image quality reasons I would have for not buying one. Are these problems evident in a well adjusted set? How is yours treble?

From what I have read and understand about LCOS, these and more problems are resolved and the sets give quite spectacular viewing. Unfortunately I don't want to spend SXRD-type money on a TV...and these 3LCD sets are certainly on the money, for me.

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There was a HN store near where I work and they had the 50" 3LCD on display. Near it there was the latest model (600A) Panasonic 42" high def plasma. Both were on the same standard definition TV station (SBS), so I was able to compare the picture on the two units from a standing position about 1.5m from the 42" plasma and about 2.5m from the 50" 3LCD rear pro. The plasma was using it's own tuner and the 3LCD was connected via component.

I studied the video for some time and overall I found the picture on the 3LCD to be better than tha plasma. The difference is hard to describe, other than to say that the 3LCD's picture looked more natural. Even with the Plasma's brightness reduced, the 3LCD picture looked better.

The program I was watching occasionally showed some black and white still images. With those images there was a slight difference in the grey between the two units. To me the grey on the plasma looked more realistic with the 3LCD having a slight blueish hue in comparison. This hue in the grey was similar to what I noticed on a Pyrod 37" LCD that I tried out a few months ago. With the Pyrod, it was something I was unable to get rid of by fiddling with the settings. Overall there was a slight difference in hue between the two TV's. It would be interesting to know the perception of others on this.

With regard to motion blur, I watched some motor sport and I did not see anything that struck me as a problem. It is much better in this area than my Dell 2405FPW. A sport like AFL would be a better test however.

with regard to cooling fan noise, It was not something that stood out at either Sony Cwentral or HN, but that was in a shop environment.

For anyone in Perth who is interested in directly comparing the Sony 3LCD with the Panasonic plasma, the HN store I went to was the one between the Mitchell Freeway and the Freo railway line near the city. If I have time tomorrow, I will return to connect the 3LCD to a laptop.

I also checked out the Panasonic 50" HD plasma and found it was crappy on SD stuff. The TROTK DVD proved to be atrocious in comparison with the 50" Wega 3LCD. (connections via HDMI or component).

With regard to 'hue' casts on whites, greys, etc, I find it is an inherent aspect of the various brands. Only proper calibration can adjust accurately. However, if you don't compare sets alongside, you probably won't notice the differences anyway. Remember, we rely on our eyes' interpretations - usually without question. During my university courses, I did some strands in behavioural psychology; on human perceptions, which included aural/ocular comparisons. The variations with a large sample of subjects were startling.

I have previously posted on both motion blur and cooling fan noise.

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blueJ i found the cool colour setting on the tv made peoples skin tones look a bit grey. I looked at the warmer settings and ATM I seem to have the tv set to cool while the source HTPC is set quite warm. I found the finer control on the source better for this setting. Needs a little more fine tuning which I will do when I put the new video card in as its going to be on a different input.

I think the iris has a some impact on the light to the edge of the screen. I am on Auto1, Auto2 seems dim at the corners to me. Medium seems similar to auto 1.

My motorsport is still poor when looking at live track pictures, in car or helcopter, studio was very good tho suggesting different signals being scaled. Its the source card so I am not worried about this.

Fan noise is noticible. My room is noisy so I cannot hear it when its all running. With everything off it is easily heard. Quiet scenes will show this up in my view. I havent sat and listened to see if it turns off and on. On start up it is louder for about 10 seconds or so.

As I mentioned earlier I am becoming happier with the tv. I have adjusted settings with the video card as much as I can and I am actually pretty pleased with the picture. I have just watched the Haunted Mansion and that kind of stylised movie is ideal. I think it fits with the usual suspects like 5th Element, Monsters inc etc. It looks very very good.

treb

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Fan noise is noticible. My room is noisy so I cannot hear it when its all running. With everything off it is easily heard. Quiet scenes will show this up in my view. I havent sat and listened to see if it turns off and on. On start up it is louder for about 10 seconds or so.

treb

Thanks treble for your fan noise observation.

Here we go again. Looks like the new Bravia 3LCDs have the same cooling system as the earlier Wega 3LCDs. If so we won't be getting one. :blink:

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Thanks treble for your fan noise observation.

Here we go again. Looks like the new Bravia 3LCDs have the same cooling system as the earlier Wega 3LCDs. If so we won't be getting one. :blink:

no problem. I was hoping with my earlier question about noise whether I could give you some kind of useful noise information to help your decision. I did sit recording an MP3 with all my gear on and all my gear off (pc&tv gear) except for the TV. I don't think its helpful and probably makes the noise sound worse than it is to be honest.

For me, I don't care with the noise (just yet) but for people looking for that near silent running, this is probably going to leave some dissatisfaction. Having said that the noise is coming from the rear of the unit, I dont know if it can be muffled in anyway through putting it in an alcove or something.... might amplify the noise I guess. Its just a wooshing noise but it would be nice if it was thermostat driven of something.

My new card is on its way so tonite I will get this thing running on the right resolution and see. I am hoping to borrow a decent camera and take some better photos of the unit. As I have improved the resolution or got it closer to where it should be there has been a marked improvement with this tv.

treb

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hmm..... I would like to make a few comments about this tv. I was wondering if there is something like a pro forma report or something floating about that can be filled out?

if not perhaps its an idea? most product review sites are pretty free flowing but another topic forum I am on has a kind of template or guide which helps give consistency of info.. ??

treb

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I went to both Sony Central and a HN store today and used whatever laptops thay had handy to test the 3LCD through VGA. The laptops were rather primative (by desktop standards) and as such I could not get either of them to send native (1280x720) to the 3LCD, so not much gained.

I have found using instore laptops a somewhat useless exercise for this purpose (my lack of knowledge on laptops does not help either), so when the SXRD units are avaialble I will take my PC into Sony Central and test both the 3LCD and the SXRD units.

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You will need a DVI to HDMI cable.

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^yes you will.

^^you can get 720p on component, composite and hdmi.

If you look in the manual ...which I think you discovered on the net ...it tells you which inputs will do 720p. I plugged it into hdmi to a gigabyte radeon 9600pro. Its a whole different television.

The sharpness increase is significant, some sd content has gone backwards but not alot and some.. has gotten better. I am running 1280x720 with some slight overscan. I ran a custom res which gave me a perfect fit to my HTPC desktop but I felt added some distortion in areas like movement around mouths, arms. It also seemd to make facial expressions look like the face was melting or fluid.. weird

So overscan is ok. I had 30 minutes of the planet earth documentary by David Attenborough. Avalanches were really something. My gone in 60 seconds has become very clear since yesterday.

I am now very impressed.. I recall someone saying I would be once its dialled in better. I think the red is a bit hot still and I think what I perceive as motion blur could be a lot to do with the content. Gin60 is very smooth in comparison to some other material.

If the content is quality it looks outstanding. I hate to say it but some of these ads look amazing and rove just looks scary.

ok

treb

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DVI to HDMI cable I have got. If any of the laptops I used had a DVI connection I could have used it too.

The sharpness increase is significant, some sd content has gone backwards but not alot and some.. has gotten better. I am running 1280x720 with some slight overscan. I ran a custom res which gave me a perfect fit to my HTPC desktop but I felt added some distortion in areas like movement around mouths, arms. It also seemd to make facial expressions look like the face was melting or fluid.. weird

It's the level of overscan and overall picture quality that I wish to test with various media files. I also wish to determine what the Windows Desktop looks like and whether any overscan impacts adversely on it's use. I would like to be able to eliminate any overscan, but your comments above do not appear encouraging.

How have you found the black level of the unit in a dark environment ?

At The Sony Central store today I took another look at this, compared to a Bravia S series LCD next to it. It was significantly better than the S series LCD (as I noticed on Saturday), but when I got the salesman to display and adjust settings, the iris settings on the 3LCD were such that any light on the screen was at a minimum, while the S series LCD backlight was set to maximum. with the settings adjusted on both units, the black level was somewhat more comparable.

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DVI to HDMI cable I have got. If any of the laptops I used had a DVI connection I could have used it too.

It's the level of overscan and overall picture quality that I wish to test with various media files. I also wish to determine what the Windows Desktop looks like and whether any overscan impacts adversely on it's use. I would like to be able to eliminate any overscan, but your comments above do not appear encouraging.

I think I may need some additional fine tuning on the custom resolution before I consign it to the scrap heap. Owen provided a link in a post on page to which is a guide on using Power Strip to get your 1 to 1 mapping. I have not used this yet. I have only used the ATI configuration to get it as close as I can. Those extra few pixels at the sides may just be causing the distortion I am seeing.

How have you found the black level of the unit in a dark environment ?

Blacks. I personally find very good. I was watching Gin60 and it uses a lot of shadowed and ambient light effects, plus much of it is at night.... boosting cars. I am confident there is "some" fine detail loss in the dark areas but for the main it is pretty good. I dont feel I am missing too much

I understand your problem, its very cumbersome to try and find a portable source that has the right outputs for what you want. The TV forces VGA input to scale down to 1024x768 and it only shows Svideo in 800x600.

Windows Desktop

@ 720P my desktop overscans. If you drew a horionztal line through the XP start button just on the stop of the letter s. That would show where my screen starts. So below that point its overscanned. Measure that around the screen and it shows how much is missing. It is not very much.

screen proportions are good and the screen is very clear and readable.

Custom Resolution was 1232x680 and resulted in an almost perfect fit. Just a few pixels wide. There is a way to type in the exact pixel dimensions but I couldn't work it over VNC/remote desktop. Cut n paste would do the job. So I just used the shrink/expand buttons in my video card settings.

Screen shots. My camera is limited to 2Mp in ability. I am going to borrow one, hopefully on Thursday and then I will take a few shots of my screen etc to post up. I have take a few this morning to show the desktop.

The first one is a shot of the desktop @ 1280x720

The second is another shot of the desktop with the ATI control centre onscreen. THe last resolution in the list is my custom one.

The third image is of an avalanche @1280x720 in the Planet Earth series from BBC.

The final one is Half Life at my custom resolution of 1232x680

Like I said the camera is limitted and it is at 1.4 zoom or something which tends to curve the object beign pictured top and bottom.

DrSmith if you have a way to run HDMI into the demo then I would encourage you to try it out. I would also encourage you to compare your material on vga @ 1024x768 with HDMI @ 1280x720. I have not tried HDMI 1024x768 yet but I found Television images much smoother (less detail) on the VGA. HDMI it is warts and all, good for good content, DVD's etc.

If I had a way of assisting I would readily help. What does it mean when you stand there rubbing your hand back and forth on the bezel staring off into space?

treb

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Thanks treble

Your feedback on the set and in particular the observations on black levels and relatively minimal overscan are very encouraging.

If I got one of these sets I would be using it with Windows MCE and running it native 1280x720 50Hz (I hope), so it is good to know I don't have to worry about overscan. I would be mainly watching/recording SD but of course there would be the option to watch 720P and 1080i content if desired.

Have you watched ABC HD 720P and noticed if it looks better than the same program on ABC SD?

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Thanks treble

Your feedback on the set and in particular the observations on black levels and relatively minimal overscan are very encouraging.

If I got one of these sets I would be using it with Windows MCE and running it native 1280x720 50Hz (I hope), so it is good to know I don't have to worry about overscan. I would be mainly watching/recording SD but of course there would be the option to watch 720P and 1080i content if desired.

Have you watched ABC HD 720P and noticed if it looks better than the same program on ABC SD?

BlueJ, I have not looked at any of the HD digital channels only the normal digital channels. My HTPC has never had the power to be able to process the signal smoothly. 100% CPU. Now I have this new video card, I have noticed a siginificant improvement in performance so possibly the PC will be able to handle full HD. I will try this tonight and see.

I can at least compare as it does run, just stalls everynow and then when the cpu maxes out. I was planning on getting a second TV card and going for a hardware based decoder to keep the load down on the PC. The PC is really a concept prover so its minimal spec. Anyway does ok on SD and gaming,

Are you able to explain for me please why 50Hz? I am running at 60Hz ATM and am curious.

Thanks

Treb

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Are you able to explain for me please why 50Hz? I am running at 60Hz ATM and am curious.

DTV in Australia is broadcast at 50hz. 60hz refresh rates therefore result in slight motion judder.

ATI's software did not support 50hz, however thay they recently provided a registry fix to enable 50hz support for their cards. This can be found on ATI's knowledge base here. You will need to type in 737-22853 under search to get to the article.

I have followed the instructions from the above site, but I have not been able to get 50hz refresh rates to display on the Catalyst software. Others have got it to work however and I am hoping that when I attach a display that supports 50hz, all will be well.

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^wow... now this could be the revelation I have been looking for.... isn't ignorance almost bliss?

I updated my catalyst drivers last night because half life insisted..... I am going to try this first thing and see if it can be done....

edit* of course if you view the linked picture of "desktop with ATI control centre" through squited eyes you can see I already have a 720p 50hz resolution....*edit

thx for that

treb

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ok so I changed the refresh rate to 50Hz... I notice little change.

I am able to run the HD channels now... PC wont do much else without breaking up the picture but it runs smooth enough when left alone. I am watching ABC Time Team or something. It looks outstanding, noticibly clearer.

Comparing HD @ 50Hz & 60Hz, I would say I prefer 60hz the motion blur is much less in my view... so to recap

we went to very low levels of motion blur 2 day ago on 1024x768 down to perhaps 50% of that level of movement when we went to 1280x720. Now I think we are less than half again on HD. and to be honest sometimes there is none visible at all....

Now I am talking about very small areas.... around mouths and fingers...other than that there is not much. The main thing I have noticed is that where areas of single colour the pixels seemed to flicker lighter and darker.. that is gone now on the HD. colour is steady. black looks good and again some source blacks are washed out... but there is still no detail there.

well this is now truly impressive in my view. I think people wants to compare this with the LCD panels

Kendrew, dont exclude this because of fan noise I think you need to guage for yourself. I think it runs almost silently sometimes.. its too hard to take my opinion on it because for me its not an issue.

so... I hope all this us helpful and not the opposite. I think everyone should have a bravia of somesort.

I should say thx drsmith for suggesting checkin out HD but as I explained earlier the PC hasn't had the grunt. It could have been a while before it occured to me that the new card might help. it does..

treb

satisfaction at an all time high

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