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Sony Bravia 3lcd Rear Projectors - Any Good?


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I can't find a thread on these Sony KFxxE200 Bravia 3LCD displays. I guess they are cheaper versions of the Grand Wegas. The price is OK :blink: RRP is $2k for the 42" so I was wondering how they stack up in these areas?

- brightness uniformity

- black levels

- lamp lifetime

- dead pixel policy

- do they accept 1280x720 @ 50Hz via HDMI or DVI?

- any problems with 'blue' tints due to LCD ageing?

Anyone seen or bought one?

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These are only a recent release in Australia. I think they are the successor to the Grand Wegas, using the newer Bravia engine, but otherwise similar spec wise.

As far as I can tell they are similar to the UK release KDF-ExxA12U. If you look over at AVForums there are a number of threads there about that unit, which has been in circulation for a while now.

I agree the price is attractive for the screen size and specs. It was on my short list of tv's to check out more thoroughly. I saw a 42" one on display in a Wow store over the weekend. They were running a demo dvd and first impression was that it looked pretty good. But I was standing square on to the tv at that point. Any movement off axis (particularly vertically) resulted in quite a large change in brightness. I didnt think the brightness uniformity would be such a problem, but after seeing it first hand... disappointed. So that pretty much rules out this tv for me. The search continues....

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Any movement off axis (particularly vertically) resulted in quite a large change in brightness. I didnt think the brightness uniformity would be such a problem, but after seeing it first hand... disappointed. So that pretty much rules out this tv for me. The search continues....

Interesting.

The older A10 50" model I have seen does not have that problem.

You would have to be way of axis to notice much change in brighness.

They are brighter then a plasma to start with, so is it really a big problem?

How many people watch a TV from over 45 degrees of axis? :blink:

If you like to sit on the floor, it could be an issue.

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Hey BlueJ I had exactly the same thoughts on this set. I have yet to see a Bravia PRJ in the shops but the Plasmas are there.

Owen has another thread here: http://www.dtvforum.info/index.php?showtopic=40513

which deals with the 60 & 70" version of this set. I posted some thoughts like yours about page 9 or something.

If I had the budget based on what I saw today the Sony Bravia Plasma with 1080 x 46" was definately ahead of the other manufacturer's units I saw. I would guess many are older tech now but it was smoother and from 3 - 3.5m away it was almost unnoticable.. so much so that I could live with it.

I would say at 1.5 metres the screen looked as good as the others look at 3m....then as you go out it got so much better.

Saw this at HN in City West, WA.

I was also suprised at the size of the unit. It is much much bigger than just the screen. 46" is as imposing as 60"+

hmmm if only. I am heading to the Sony shop at the end of the week to see what they have in the rpj....

will let you know what I find out.

treb

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Any movement off axis (particularly vertically) resulted in quite a large change in brightness.

Interesting.

...

If you like to sit on the floor, it could be an issue.

Yeah sorry, re-reading what I wrote seems to make out that it's much worse than it is. I could have worded it better.

What I did was basically sit on the floor :blink: which resulted in a noticeable change in brightness. Sure I could still see the picture, just not as bright / clear. It was enough to put me off, as I do sometimes sit/lie on the floor/beanbag.

I guess the store setup / lighting could have been a contributing factor too. I'll have another look on my next visit to reconfirm.

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What I did was basically sit on the floor :blink: which resulted in a noticeable change in brightness.

Brightness variation associated with variation in viewing angle is what puts me off rear projection sets.

I'm eagerly awaiting the SXRD sets to see how much of an issue it is with them.

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Room lighting has a significant affect on brightness variation.

The brighter the ambient lighting the greater the problem, so showrooms are often not the best.

Horizontal viewing angles are usually very good on most RPTV’s.

45 degrees or more is the norm, and at that point you cant really see the screen properly anyway.

Vertical angles are normally more restricted, but most grown ups don’t sit on the floor to actually watch a TV. :blink:

On a big 60 or 70” screen you are not likely to ever get far enough above screen centre for viewing angle issues, so laying on the floor close to the TV is the only likely problem.

On a small set like a 42”, vertical viewing angle are more of a problem, especially if the TV is not mounted high enough off the floor.

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ok so I went to our local Sony store to checkout the 3LCD RPTV. I saw the 50" model which is the one I am looking to purchase.

It was running SD 10. Setup to view at about 2.5m.

It is a nice TV for the money. There is no doubt.

10 did play some widescreen content while I was there which was nice to see. It looks so good when your screen size matches what you are viewing.

Performance.

You can see what I would describe as the fluctations in pixel contrast .... don't know how else to put it...that comes with LCD.

I still think it looks as good as the bulk of the LCD's I see in the stores but it is not as good as the bravia lcd.

They have a 46" Bravia LCD there playing some Sony demo DVD. It looks amazingly vibrant and detailed. I was even more impressed than when I saw it yesterday at HN. I think (without any personal expertse) that this one is has probably been setup correctly.

If the SXRD RPTV with Bravia etc is as vibrant it would definately be the choice. I wish I could go the distance but can't.

Was quoted $2600.00 for PRTV, Stand and Delivery all in.

As for the 60" SXRD RPTV the Sony guy said they are expecting display stock in 1 weeks time @ Perth.

I got talking with a guy who had come in specifically to see the SXRD RPTV so we had a full on about the 46" LCD and the 3LCD RPTV... which was interesting. I think he has already decided to purchase regardless.

ok I would say I am 95% with this unit. I Would love the "Extra" from the 1080 but it is not going to happen so I will got this one.

Viewing angle I found to be ok. I Would say its acceptable out to about 50 degrees off perpendicular. Vertically I couldn't tell. The display seating was about 1' below the units straight on viewing angle. Its about the position I normally view at but a bit closer. I saw no problems with that.

The picture is full right to the edges and the brightness is very uniform. I did not detect any areas that were less bright. No rainbows etc, though I don't really see that kinda stuff.

Maybe I'll post some pics etc when I get my hands on it.

treb

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ok the set was delivered this morning. long day today at work.

I had it out of the box in minutes but had to go back before I could do more than turn it on. So I am running a HTPC with a resolution of 1024x768.

I noticed on my small CRT that I was using that I had some over scan. This is what I am getting now to get the picture to full screen.

Here is a pic. It was on is why

now this is the bit I could never understand, When I run my HTPC @ 1024x768 I cannot get an exact match to the screen. I have some overscan and I am not sure how this is.

I remember the nvidia card I am using had some area where I could stretch or trim the screen. So I am hoping someone might be able to offer some guidance on that issue while I try and find this area again.

Here are some examples of the various zoom settings.

This is Wide Mode setting Full 1

This is Wide Mode Setting Full 2

This is the Wide Mode setting Zoom and it involves some clipping/overscan of the image

I should add that I am using the VGA input and have used Svideo in the past.

Treb

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You need to remember that you are dealing with a TV, not a PC monitor.

It is designed to run standard TV resolutions with overscan. The “PC” (VGA) input will normally under scan.

From memory the LCD chips are 1280x720, so you should use 1280x720 output timing from the PC. This will give some over scan as TV’ s are supposed to do, so you will need to run a custom resolution inside standard 720p timing to get rig of overscan.

The Nvidia drivers have simple adjustments to do what you need, but the drivers should be told that you are using a 720p HDTV, if they don’t automatically detect it.

You may need to use the HDMI (DVI) or Component input for this to work.

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Owen

thanks for that. I found the section of the nvidia settings. There is nothing I see that is that precise about resolution. I also seem unable to affect the screen overscan although I am certain these are the controls I used before.

the card is a bit old and I expected to update most of what I am running over time. I will keep fiddling with it because I am not confident it is not there and I will keep working toward the plan.

The quality of the program is the major factor in PQ. I watched 2 men in a Tinny and it was of excellent quality. Very impressive. Other content appears in several differnt formats (size) and have varying degrees of scaling so some are pretty poor and some ok.

There are several things I notice about the picture and I suspect its source related. Some pictures appear to have this spinning or wavy flicker on some areas of the screen. It seems to run from top right to bottom left.

no its on all signals. I do not like this. It looks like a problem I have seen somewhere else but for now it is also most evident on heavily graduated (shades?) sections of the picture.

I think the next step is to sort an alternate source out and see the comparison from that.

now for half life 2.

treb

ah I found a whole new world of settings in this nvidia software, the timings etc

thx

treb

I have had trouble finding out what replacement lamps the Bravia 3LCD use. Are they same ones used for the Grand Vegas?

What's the expected life span of the lamps, is it 8000 hours?

the lamp is Sony XL-2400 replacement lamp. Sony dealers are the place to go as per OI booklet. Anyone know if this is used in any other models?

treb

This site shows the lamp. It looks like its GWega 50" compatible

Lamps

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Owen

thanks again. It was a bit of interest. I ignored the powerstrip which I have heard of before....for now anyway. I am having trouble with those resolutions. This TV is 1024x768 and wont hold a 1280 or the other 1224 resolution (I think) that is talked about in the link.

Anyway I think I have got it part way there. I am seeing a distorted PC desktop and text now (was not before) and the picture is less overscanned. Still a small amount but not as much. Its close.

My intial opinions from this TV are:

Although I used a small 51CM CRT because my 68cm was DOA. ITs old but I enjoyed channel 10 when I watched it. I recorded Barthurst and played that back on the new TV. The quality is appalling. Its a direct MPEG stream @ 3gb approx per hour

I watched 10 live (the little guy) and it was as good as ABC to me.

I also taped Two Men in a Tinnie from ABC and played that back. It was as good as when I watched it live. It really shows the quality of the TV up properly I think.

People have asked if these RPTV's still show the kind of radiating washed out parts on the picture. Sometimes where it might be several graduations from dark to light. This still shows up but I dont think is pronounced as I have seen on older RPTVs.

The one thing I dislike about these plasma's, LCD TVs etc Is that they are basically crap. The picture is **** and the quality is pretty average. I wonder why people have to keep going down a path that clearly isn't going to deliver what CRT can but we seem to be persisting with it and it confuses the hell out of me.

I expect as we all get farther away from CRT we will forget it was actually better. I know it has size probs etc but setitng those aside we are all being taken for a ride. An inferrior product by a factor of several times and hugely exhorbitant prices that dont reflect the shitty quality

Anyway I needed a new TV and this is about 90-95% right so it will do but I just wish I wasn't beging screwed all the time..unfortunately the masses set the scene and we all got to put up with it.

I think my purchasing satisfaction has lasted all of 10 minutes but I don't think it would have been different with another tv.

treb

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Sounds like you are still using the VGA input, which has limitations on the resolutions it will accept.

The TV will definitely accept a standard 720p input via Component or DVI/HDMI.

Once you have that working, you simple need to adjust the picture size in the nVidia control panel if you want to control overscan.

Once you have the Sony set up properly, it will outperform many Plasma’s.

People have asked if these RPTV's still show the kind of radiating washed out parts on the picture. Sometimes where it might be several graduations from dark to light. This still shows up but I dont think is pronounced as I have seen on older RPTVs.

I don’t know what you are talking about here.

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Treb,

My experience with HTPC is zero,but I'm wondering whether this approach would work with your picture sizing problems,as you are effectively using the TV as a PC monitor.

I have a Digital TV card with HD tuner, installed in my computer,which shows good quality SD and Hd pics. on the monitor.

There is a very effective pan and scan manual control which will easily fill the screen with little scan error.

The only problem I have had is that the signal must be of a high quality to stop digital breakup-the coaxial cable fits into the card in the PC slot.

The card is the Technisat AirStar $99 -contact them if it will work here http://www.digitalnow.com.au/dvbtcards.html

miki

EDIT-would only work on FTA, not Foxtel-so no good

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Miki thanks for that. I am using a ComproUsa FTA Digital card. Has an analogue tuner in it as well but I don't use of course.

The coax goes into the card. Software does have some limitted "clipping" which I have set to min. I like the software and the card although it is not widely supported in 3rd party PVR's etc. I am looking for another card perhaps without the philips tuner (I cant get away from those ba**ards) and get a card with a tuner that is more widely supported.

Owen. Thanks again, you put a lot of expertise into these threads. much appreciated. I think this hits it on the head:

No, Bathrone, it is not a cost issue with me (although it would be nice to have the funds to create an HT of huge proportions).

However I willingly concede to a concern regarding an HD set and viewing distance with SD material.

I have auditioned several new release HD plasmas/LCD panels recently and have been horrified at the atrocious PQ with SD material.

The KFE50A10 which I referred to earlier was excellent with component input/DVDs and good with HDMI/HD, but SD programming could be lousy and very irritating. From my observations, SD on an HD unit can be appalling - and considering the general TV transmissions we receive here (for the next ? ? years) one might be wise in purchasing a set with 1280 x720 which can give acceptable results with SD and pleasing renditions of HD; such as the new 3LCD Bravia.

I also think you are right. This display is way better than most plasmas. I dont think its the TV. I think it has just shown me something that has been hidden from me and that is that the quality of broadcasted pictures is pretty low for a lot of material.

I think I just saw that last night for the first time. I have spoken with a few friends and I am happy thats what its all about. Of course somethings bug me out of the box no matter what I have bought but no doubt I will get over them and enjoy what this tv can do.

I can't stop talking about it and found myself telling a complete stranger about my new huge MF'kin TV at the Cafe while paying for me java. What I say is all good so it must be how I really feel, despite the strange and slightly concerned looks from this guy. In fact I think I had him convinced to go and have a look

ok thanks. I will update my video card and run it via DVI or some such and then see. It wont be right away though. Indy cars on the weekend so should be a pleasurable experience.

treb

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If you are coming from a small CRT TV any big screen will show up defects that you just never noticed on the small set.

I have seen a Sony 50” A10 compared side by side with all the major brands of 50” Plasma, as well as big LCD’s including the Sony and the Sharp 45” 1080p.

All where fed the channel 7 “HD” loop, which is only SD (576 lines), and it did a stellar job of cleaning up that blocky over compressed crap. Pixilation and compression artefacts where well controlled and posterization (colour banding) was close to non existent.

The only other set to equal it was the Sony LCD flat panel (40” from memory”). Next in line was the 50” Panasonic Plasma.

Sonys video processing is top notch, and bested all the others with the crap quality channel 7 loop.

As people around here will attest, I have little love of LCD in any form, but I was amazed at how good the 50” A10 LCD RPTV looked in comparison to equivalent sized Plasma’s.

It looked brighter, sharper and had less artefacts, which came as a real surprise to me. Viewing angles also looked very good.

Black level is probably the only major shortfall of the A10, but it is certainly competitive with many Plasmas in that regard.

With the 720p LCD RPTV being that good, I cant wait to see the 1080p SXRD’s, as they are better in almost every way. :blink:

I have a CRT RPTV that does no processing of the incoming video what so ever, so I get to see what the video looks like warts and all. I am shocked at how bad a lot of content on digital free to air really is.

A good case in point was the Bathurst motor racing, which was simply dreadful quality.

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These are only a recent release in Australia. I think they are the successor to the Grand Wegas, using the newer Bravia engine, but otherwise similar spec wise.

As far as I can tell they are similar to the UK release KDF-ExxA12U. If you look over at AVForums there are a number of threads there about that unit, which has been in circulation for a while now.

I found a UK article on the release of the KDF-E50A12U which was 12 months old.

Info on the KFxxE200 seems to be a little thin.

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Saw one of the 50" versions at a DSE Powerhouse today (Macquarie Centre).

It was being fed Star Wars Ep.III from a non-progressive, non-upscaling DVD plaver (didn't see the connection type) and it wasn't doing a bad job of it at all......

Not bad for a 50" set that had a retail price of $2499. :blink:

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Owen,

I think this is my answer from the OI:

PC input signal compatibility chart

----------------------------------------

signal Resolution Horix Freq Vert Freq VESA

Horiz x Vert Khz Hz standard

-------------------------------------------------------------------

WXGA 1280x768 47.4 60 y

1280x768 47.8 60 y

Tips:

XGA and WXGA signals will be down-converted and displayed at an equivelent resolution level of SVGA signal.

HDMI Signal

Video: 480i, 480p, 576i, 576p, 720p, 1080i

LCD Panel:

Size 0.73 inch TFT LCD panel

Resolution 1,280 pxels x 720 lines

definately the interface that I need to be using. Copy and past that chart into notepad or someting for the formatting.. I cant see how to straighten it here.

treb

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If you are coming from a small CRT TV any big screen will show up defects that you just never noticed on the small set.

I have seen a Sony 50” A10 compared side by side with all the major brands of 50” Plasma, as well as big LCD’s including the Sony and the Sharp 45” 1080p.

All where fed the channel 7 “HD” loop, which is only SD (576 lines), and it did a stellar job of cleaning up that blocky over compressed crap. Pixilation and compression artefacts where well controlled and posterization (colour banding) was close to non existent.

The only other set to equal it was the Sony LCD flat panel (40” from memory”). Next in line was the 50” Panasonic Plasma.

Sonys video processing is top notch, and bested all the others with the crap quality channel 7 loop.

As people around here will attest, I have little love of LCD in any form, but I was amazed at how good the 50” A10 LCD RPTV looked in comparison to equivalent sized Plasma’s.

It looked brighter, sharper and had less artefacts, which came as a real surprise to me. Viewing angles also looked very good.

Black level is probably the only major shortfall of the A10, but it is certainly competitive with many Plasmas in that regard.

With the 720p LCD RPTV being that good, I cant wait to see the 1080p SXRD’s, as they are better in almost SD material

every way. :D

I have a CRT RPTV that does no processing of the incoming video what so ever, so I get to see what the video looks like warts and all. I am shocked at how bad a lot of content on digital free to air really is.

A good case in point was the Bathurst motor racing, which was simply dreadful quality.

I totally agree with all your points, Owen.

I also have a CRT RPTV (Sony KP-W41). We went back to it when we returned the 50A10s. It's been a great set for the last 10 years. After using the 50A10 for a couple of weeks we weren't too happy with much of the SD content. There is one commercial that deals with hearing impairment, which is particularly abominable when the main advocate is on screen. Since returning to the old CRT RPTV we have observed that the same commercial is still crappy (but not so obvious). We would never have noticed if we hadn't seen it on the 50A10.

I too preferred the 50A10 over most plasmas and LCD panels but I saw the 46" Bravia panel yesterday and was quite impressed. I know it's not much smaller than a 50" but it makes a substantial difference in our HT.

I'm sure I'd be very impressed by an SXRD - but as I've said before, the 60" is too big for us. Drat!.

Another factor is our digital reception which has always been subject to dropouts on occasions. We weren't going to have it checked until Prime came on air which happened a couple of weeks ago.

Yesterday, our antenna specialist did a walk around on the roof and found that our existing phased-array / mast amp. still the best for digital. He was able to wind up the gain in the amp; saying it should help. But, after he'd gone, we found we're still getting some signal losses at times.

Makes it even less attractive for an HD TV?

So, we're leaning more towards the 3 LCD Bravia as time passes. As it happens, if we got one, we'd get a substantial refund over the 50A10 - and maybe get the new Sony DVD/HDD recorder with inbuilt SD tuner and still come out in front.

Only worrying thing now is the Bravia's cooling fan. :blink:

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Only worrying thing now is the Bravia's cooling fan. :blink:

If you're worried about fan noise in the current KFE 200 series 3lcd Bravia-according to AV forum,this was an acknowledged and repaired under warranty, fault in a couple of previous model batches some time ago-but fixed by now.

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I was briefly at Sony Central in Perth today where I asked about online access to their user manuals. I was advised that they could be found on this site. User manuals can be accessed from "Online documentation" on the left hand side of the page, half way down.

There are no manuals with a precise match to the models on Sony Australia's website (KFxxE200), but there are manuals for the models KF-xxE200A, where xx is the size 42", 50" or 55".

The rear pro units did show variation in brightness whan viewed off axis, much more so in the vertical than in the horizontal, but I found that this was not an issue when viweing the unit at a normal viewing distance either directly in front or slightly either side, provided the units were being viewed at eye level. I would suggest that anyone considering purchasing these rear pro units check this out for themselves to determine whether it is an issue for them in their viewing environment.

I found the overall picture quality comparable with other Plasma and LCD's I have seen (at a normal viewing distance), but this was only with a limited range of video.

The Sony store also had a darkened area in which there was a 42" 3LCD rear pro and a 40" S series LCD. This provided an oppertunity to check out the black level and compare it to the LCD unit. The test was crude (DVD's paused at the start when showing "black", and I did get him to swap the DVD's over as there was a gradual variation from black to grey at the start of one of the DVD's). Also, I had to move sideways to compare the black level of the units from a position directly in front of each of them. While there was some light on the rear pro screen, I felt it's was less than on than the S series LCD.

I asked the salesman about the response time of the rear pro, and he said "8ms, the same as our LCD range". I must say that although the salesman was helpful with my requests he did not seem to know much about the units himself and was more interested in giving me his "sales spin" than providing useful information. Time was not on my side today, but I intend to return with a DVD of some AFL footage to see how the rear pro units handle motion.

As a side note for anyone considering the Bravia S series LCD, don't purchase it if you intend to use it in a darkened environment. The black level become very poor when this unit was viewed off axis. It reminded me of a Pyrod LCD I tried out a few months ago. This was not an issue however with the 3LCD rear pro unit.

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DrSmith the manuals with the codes KF-xxE200A are the manuals provided with the australian 3LCD RPTV's. My manual has the codes for each of the 3 sizes on the front cover. All with A on the end.

This is the part number for the manual. 2-693-391-11(1). it is available on that site you linked too.....there are two manuals.....very slow for me though..

anyway after comparing both manuals I discover the only difference is one is printed in malaysia and the other thailand. Wish I had of read the last page first.

the vertical viewing angle is definately very tight. When I stand the brightness drops by at least half and I would estimate the angle at about 15 degrees..somewhere there

I am developing a serious case of like for this tv. I am picking up DVI card monday and hope to take this relationship to the next level..... so to speak. Its doing a pretty good job with the wrong inputs for the material I am watching so I think it will be a quantum step up.

treb

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If you're worried about fan noise in the current KFE 200 series 3lcd Bravia-according to AV forum,this was an acknowledged and repaired under warranty, fault in a couple of previous model batches some time ago-but fixed by now.

I'm not quite sure to which "previous model batches" you refer.

If you mean the KFExxA10 series, then I am quite aware of the fan issues as reported by myself and many others in various forums.

One of my earler posts in this current topic (Sony Bravia 3lcd Rear Projectors - Any Good?) describes my experiences with noisy cooling fans in the KFE50A10 - and my hopes that the new 3LCD Bravias do not suffer from the same problem. I'm going to have difficulty auditioning either a 3LCD or an SXRD without ordering one in. When you live in the bush, some retailers are conscious of limited sales and lack of product turnover so they limit their holding stock to the more popular models.

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Yesterday, our antenna specialist did a walk around on the roof and found that our existing phased-array / mast amp. still the best for digital. He was able to wind up the gain in the amp; saying it should help. But, after he'd gone, we found we're still getting some signal losses at times.

Begs the question why the amplifier gain was set to where it was in the first place.

Was a check done before and after with a meter capable of measuring digital signals?

If yes, it would be interesting to find the rationale behind winding up the gain.

If no, then get another opinion.

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Been thinking of SXRD vs 3LCD - again.

Everyone's eyes are not equal and their response times (brain interpretation) vary from individual to individual.

Despite experts' findings and specifications regarding the human eye, some people can "see" blurred fast motion, even at 8ms. Others don't see it.

I recall reading about newer models (all brands) having faster response times; down from 11 to 8ms; which was supposed to remove the blurred effect. But I know that I can still see it.

When I questioned Sony about the response time of the previous Wega 3LCDs they told me they did not have the technical details but they thought it was about 8ms.

Note that the V series Bravias list a response time of 8ms?

Note that the 3LCD Bravias do not list the response time?

Note that the SXRD is listed as an incredible 2.5ms?

However, I spoke to a Sony techie last week and he said that the 3LCDs were likely to be 8ms and the SXRDs were actually considered to be double the listed 2.5ms; that is: 5ms - which is still pretty good. The techie didn't know why the 2.5ms becomes 5ms.

My current thinking about SXRD vs 3LCD has me considering the following features important to me:

SXRD is better because of its response time and full HD; with comprehensive picture control. But maybe won't be nice with average SD stuff. And they are too big for me.

3LCD has a slower response time; is not full HD; picture control may not be as flexible. But they will be more gentle with SD material and the 50 inch suits us fine.

And what about the cooling fans? :blink:

As an aside:

The V series 46 and 52 inch Bravia panels have a slower response time than the SXRD. But they've got full HD, good picture control, they're too small (46 inch) and far too expensive (52 inch - about $10,000).

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There was a HN store near where I work and they had the 50" 3LCD on display. Near it there was the latest model (600A) Panasonic 42" high def plasma. Both were on the same standard definition TV station (SBS), so I was able to compare the picture on the two units from a standing position about 1.5m from the 42" plasma and about 2.5m from the 50" 3LCD rear pro. The plasma was using it's own tuner and the 3LCD was connected via component.

I studied the video for some time and overall I found the picture on the 3LCD to be better than tha plasma. The difference is hard to describe, other than to say that the 3LCD's picture looked more natural. Even with the Plasma's brightness reduced, the 3LCD picture looked better.

The program I was watching occasionally showed some black and white still images. With those images there was a slight difference in the grey between the two units. To me the grey on the plasma looked more realistic with the 3LCD having a slight blueish hue in comparison. This hue in the grey was similar to what I noticed on a Pyrod 37" LCD that I tried out a few months ago. With the Pyrod, it was something I was unable to get rid of by fiddling with the settings. Overall there was a slight difference in hue between the two TV's. It would be interesting to know the perception of others on this.

With regard to motion blur, I watched some motor sport and I did not see anything that struck me as a problem. It is much better in this area than my Dell 2405FPW. A sport like AFL would be a better test however.

with regard to cooling fan noise, It was not something that stood out at either Sony Cwentral or HN, but that was in a shop environment.

For anyone in Perth who is interested in directly comparing the Sony 3LCD with the Panasonic plasma, the HN store I went to was the one between the Mitchell Freeway and the Freo railway line near the city. If I have time tomorrow, I will return to connect the 3LCD to a laptop.

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Begs the question why the amplifier gain was set to where it was in the first place.

Was a check done before and after with a meter capable of measuring digital signals?

If yes, it would be interesting to find the rationale behind winding up the gain.

If no, then get another opinion.

The gain was set, originally (well before digital arrived), to reduce the effects of 'ghosting' on analogue TV (our reception is dreadful; between hills, tall forest, etc.).

The techie upped the gain in order to present a stronger signal to the digital SD STB. Unfortunately, the Signal Quality is the culprit. The current STB (Strong SRT-5000) cannot cope with the mess.

The man did check with appropriate meter. He also cautioned against too strong a signal - apparently that has its own problems with digital.

However, I do agree, another opinion is worthwhile.

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kendrew I wonder how you would go about guaging fan noise? Do you need to assess having the tv insitu or is some other measure going to work?

treb

Absolutely, treble, you need to assess the TV in situ. There is no way you can compare in store with in home auditioning.

IMHO there is no better measure of assessment other than that of your own.

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I went to four places yesterday hoping to get a look at the 42" 3LCD. Only one shop had any RPTVs at all...they had the 50" 3LCD next to a Samsung 61" DLP. So overall in the four stores there were hundreds of LCDs, sixty or so plasmas.....and 2 RPTVs.....

Both RPTVs were hopelessly badly adjusted...and they were being fed from composite through a distribution amp, judging by the way the image was jumping around on both sets! Honestly, it looked like the signal was coming off a VHS tape - dirty heads, bad tracking and all! Are margins so tight that electronics vendors can't afford a $50 STB to hookup to a TV they are trying to sell for several thousands of dollars? WTF?

Nonetheless the 50" 3LCD set looked OK. The motor racing from the Gold Coast was being shown. Motion looked smooth, no problems there. It upscaled the (assumed) SD feed pretty well. With a good quality SD feed I think a reasonably close viewing distance would be possible before the inevitable source compression and scaling artefacts (576i -> 720p) became objectionable.

Looking at the set from directly in front, I did notice that the corners of the image were a bit darker than the centre. I have seen this on a few RPTVs and I do find it quite annoying if I can see it.

The only other problems were the lack of detail in dark parts of the picture (lack of contrast I guess) and the colour temperature (or maybe just the colour adjustment), as skin tones were greyish rather than pinkish. Certainly I would expect the colour to be good after properly adjusting the set.

At this stage the slightly dark corners and the lack of detail in dark areas would be the only image quality reasons I would have for not buying one. Are these problems evident in a well adjusted set? How is yours treble?

From what I have read and understand about LCOS, these and more problems are resolved and the sets give quite spectacular viewing. Unfortunately I don't want to spend SXRD-type money on a TV...and these 3LCD sets are certainly on the money, for me.

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There was a HN store near where I work and they had the 50" 3LCD on display. Near it there was the latest model (600A) Panasonic 42" high def plasma. Both were on the same standard definition TV station (SBS), so I was able to compare the picture on the two units from a standing position about 1.5m from the 42" plasma and about 2.5m from the 50" 3LCD rear pro. The plasma was using it's own tuner and the 3LCD was connected via component.

I studied the video for some time and overall I found the picture on the 3LCD to be better than tha plasma. The difference is hard to describe, other than to say that the 3LCD's picture looked more natural. Even with the Plasma's brightness reduced, the 3LCD picture looked better.

The program I was watching occasionally showed some black and white still images. With those images there was a slight difference in the grey between the two units. To me the grey on the plasma looked more realistic with the 3LCD having a slight blueish hue in comparison. This hue in the grey was similar to what I noticed on a Pyrod 37" LCD that I tried out a few months ago. With the Pyrod, it was something I was unable to get rid of by fiddling with the settings. Overall there was a slight difference in hue between the two TV's. It would be interesting to know the perception of others on this.

With regard to motion blur, I watched some motor sport and I did not see anything that struck me as a problem. It is much better in this area than my Dell 2405FPW. A sport like AFL would be a better test however.

with regard to cooling fan noise, It was not something that stood out at either Sony Cwentral or HN, but that was in a shop environment.

For anyone in Perth who is interested in directly comparing the Sony 3LCD with the Panasonic plasma, the HN store I went to was the one between the Mitchell Freeway and the Freo railway line near the city. If I have time tomorrow, I will return to connect the 3LCD to a laptop.

I also checked out the Panasonic 50" HD plasma and found it was crappy on SD stuff. The TROTK DVD proved to be atrocious in comparison with the 50" Wega 3LCD. (connections via HDMI or component).

With regard to 'hue' casts on whites, greys, etc, I find it is an inherent aspect of the various brands. Only proper calibration can adjust accurately. However, if you don't compare sets alongside, you probably won't notice the differences anyway. Remember, we rely on our eyes' interpretations - usually without question. During my university courses, I did some strands in behavioural psychology; on human perceptions, which included aural/ocular comparisons. The variations with a large sample of subjects were startling.

I have previously posted on both motion blur and cooling fan noise.

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blueJ i found the cool colour setting on the tv made peoples skin tones look a bit grey. I looked at the warmer settings and ATM I seem to have the tv set to cool while the source HTPC is set quite warm. I found the finer control on the source better for this setting. Needs a little more fine tuning which I will do when I put the new video card in as its going to be on a different input.

I think the iris has a some impact on the light to the edge of the screen. I am on Auto1, Auto2 seems dim at the corners to me. Medium seems similar to auto 1.

My motorsport is still poor when looking at live track pictures, in car or helcopter, studio was very good tho suggesting different signals being scaled. Its the source card so I am not worried about this.

Fan noise is noticible. My room is noisy so I cannot hear it when its all running. With everything off it is easily heard. Quiet scenes will show this up in my view. I havent sat and listened to see if it turns off and on. On start up it is louder for about 10 seconds or so.

As I mentioned earlier I am becoming happier with the tv. I have adjusted settings with the video card as much as I can and I am actually pretty pleased with the picture. I have just watched the Haunted Mansion and that kind of stylised movie is ideal. I think it fits with the usual suspects like 5th Element, Monsters inc etc. It looks very very good.

treb

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Fan noise is noticible. My room is noisy so I cannot hear it when its all running. With everything off it is easily heard. Quiet scenes will show this up in my view. I havent sat and listened to see if it turns off and on. On start up it is louder for about 10 seconds or so.

treb

Thanks treble for your fan noise observation.

Here we go again. Looks like the new Bravia 3LCDs have the same cooling system as the earlier Wega 3LCDs. If so we won't be getting one. :blink:

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Thanks treble for your fan noise observation.

Here we go again. Looks like the new Bravia 3LCDs have the same cooling system as the earlier Wega 3LCDs. If so we won't be getting one. :blink:

no problem. I was hoping with my earlier question about noise whether I could give you some kind of useful noise information to help your decision. I did sit recording an MP3 with all my gear on and all my gear off (pc&tv gear) except for the TV. I don't think its helpful and probably makes the noise sound worse than it is to be honest.

For me, I don't care with the noise (just yet) but for people looking for that near silent running, this is probably going to leave some dissatisfaction. Having said that the noise is coming from the rear of the unit, I dont know if it can be muffled in anyway through putting it in an alcove or something.... might amplify the noise I guess. Its just a wooshing noise but it would be nice if it was thermostat driven of something.

My new card is on its way so tonite I will get this thing running on the right resolution and see. I am hoping to borrow a decent camera and take some better photos of the unit. As I have improved the resolution or got it closer to where it should be there has been a marked improvement with this tv.

treb

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hmm..... I would like to make a few comments about this tv. I was wondering if there is something like a pro forma report or something floating about that can be filled out?

if not perhaps its an idea? most product review sites are pretty free flowing but another topic forum I am on has a kind of template or guide which helps give consistency of info.. ??

treb

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