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Bravia X To Launch Soon?

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You *can* still do so. The inbuilt tuner doesn't preclude any of these.

Just think of it as a bonus.

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Just think of it as a bonus.

... that is an added cost, making the panel more expensive than one without a tuner.

What's the point of paying for something you don't want/need and that is hobbled with the inability to output video?

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... that is an added cost, making the panel more expensive than one without a tuner.

What's the point of paying for something you don't want/need and that is hobbled with the inability to output video?

a very valid point. And one that neon kitten should probably ponder :blink:

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... that is an added cost, making the panel more expensive than one without a tuner.

What's the point of paying for something you don't want/need and that is hobbled with the inability to output video?

Trust me, you are a minority in terms of customers who would / would not prefer an integrated tuner. And if you are buying a screen like this, it will really only be costing a couple of hundred dollars extra than it would have without the tuner.

Integrated tuners help sell panels nowdays, you cant blame companies for doing it.

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Trust me, you are a minority

I don't doubt that - there is not a high percentage of ppl building/using HTPCs.

Integrated tuners help sell panels nowdays, you cant blame companies for doing it.

It makes perfect sense to include them, I blame companies for doing it in half-arsed manner. The whole concept of having an internal tuner that can't output the video is just so backwards I can't believe they released it with such a "defect".

It is a reasonable expectation, like any TV i've had for the last 20 years, that it will output the video and audio to another device for recording. It seems that many with integrated tuners *don't* off this feature and I'm sure will come as a shock to the "mums and dads" who bought the tv with an integrated tuner for simplicity. Not surprisingly they will want to record what they are watching and what happens then? They CAN'T.

That sort of limitation is just not acceptable for a $2-3k TV IMHO.

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I don't doubt that - there is not a high percentage of ppl building/using HTPCs.

It makes perfect sense to include them, I blame companies for doing it in half-arsed manner. The whole concept of having an internal tuner that can't output the video is just so backwards I can't believe they released it with such a "defect".

It is a reasonable expectation, like any TV i've had for the last 20 years, that it will output the video and audio to another device for recording. It seems that many with integrated tuners *don't* off this feature and I'm sure will come as a shock to the "mums and dads" who bought the tv with an integrated tuner for simplicity. Not surprisingly they will want to record what they are watching and what happens then? They CAN'T.

That sort of limitation is just not acceptable for a $2-3k TV IMHO.

Well no, actually I dont think it is too much of a problem. How many people with analog TVs actually used a monitor output to pipe out the TV signal to another recording device. I dont know anyone who had used it that way. The only problem with people wanting to record their DIGITAL TV signal is that the recording hardware does not contain digital tuners yet. Once the coming HDD/DVD/Digital recorders start appearing toward the end of the year, this will be less of a problem. Because even if a set does output the digital signal (like the JVC 32" LCD) you still need to keep the TV tuned to that channel, so it doesnt give you that much flexibility.

Whenever I sell a TV with an integrated tuner, I make sure everyone knows that you cant output the digital signal to their current DVD/HDD recorder. Then I try and sell them a PVR :blink:

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... that is an added cost, making the panel more expensive than one without a tuner.

What's the point of paying for something you don't want/need and that is hobbled with the inability to output video?

The thing is, when they are integrated into the screen and mass produced, the added cost is minimal (in the order of $20).

Case in point, the R71 Samsungs, a better screen than the M61 series, its predecessor of only a few months, yet it has a lower street price and includes the addition of an integrated tuner. LG has also latched on to this, included DTV tuners with just about everything and still undercutting the competition. JVC and toshiba are also now going integrated.

Also - the screen you buy now may not always be your main screen. It may end up becoming a bedroom or kids rumpus room tv. And then you will appreciate the built in DTV tuner.

Plus an extra digital tuner can never go astray in any setup. There may always be a situation where you really want to record one channel, or even two channel on your DTV Tuner/PVR, and simultaneously watch something live to air on another channel. The extra tuner in your TV gives you that extra option.

It's better to have it and not need it, than need it and not have it.

I really think you guys are making too much of this.

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I just don't get these people jumping up and down about their tvs not having outputs for the digital signal. How many people want to watch the same thing they are recording? :blink: I thought the whole idea of a recorder was to record it for watching later while watching something else in the meantime. Don't these people realise that their idea would actually be a step backwards from a vcr?

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I just don't get these people jumping up and down about their tvs not having outputs for the digital signal. How many people want to watch the same thing they are recording? :blink: I thought the whole idea of a recorder was to record it for watching later while watching something else in the meantime. Don't these people realise that their idea would actually be a step backwards from a vcr?

Its called timeshifting.. Welcome to the new millenium :D

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Its called timeshifting.. Welcome to the new millenium :blink:

Sounds like somebody jumped too soon and bought a dvd-r with analogue tuner, sounds like somebody is stuck in the last millenium..... :D

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I just don't get these people jumping up and down about their tvs not having outputs for the digital signal. How many people want to watch the same thing they are recording? :blink: I thought the whole idea of a recorder was to record it for watching later while watching something else in the meantime. Don't these people realise that their idea would actually be a step backwards from a vcr?

The point is, for your average punter out there, they want to buy a tv with an integrated *digital* tuner so they get their quality widescreen FTA. They don't *have* any other equipment apart from a DVD player (or perhaps a recorder) and a VCR.

Then when they want to record their wonderful looking tv show, in widescreen and flawless digital quality, they CAN'T. They have to go to their VCR or DVD Recorder and record the show they want to record in *analogue* - no widescreen, and particularly if you're in a fringe area for analogue, very poor quality.

Since you already have the ability to watch high quality digital, widescreen reception, the concept that you can't record that high quality signal on a VCR or DVD Recorder is just absurd. How hard is that to understand?

The idea of buying a tv with an integrated digital tuner is so you *don't* have to go and buy a digital STB or a PVR - but with these tvs that have integrated digital tuners without output options, you literally have to go and buy another piece of equipment to record in the same high quality that you can watch.

I'd note that this is not the way I operate - I have a HTPC so this isn't an issue for me personally, but I have friends and family that I have setup AV equipment for and SIMPLICITY is the key.

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Then when they want to record their wonderful looking tv show, in widescreen and flawless digital quality, they CAN'T.

Tell me, what would they record it on? A dvd recorder? So buy a dvd recorder with digital tuner. Soon all dvd-rs will have them, problem solved.

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Once the coming HDD/DVD/Digital recorders start appearing toward the end of the year, this will be less of a problem.

Agreed, I've been waiting for these to come along for a long, long time now. I'm very surprised they haven't turned up well before now, but I understand it's primarily because Australia is a small market for the equipment manufacturers and adding the DVB-T tuner specific to Australia is/was not cost-effective.

Tell me, what would they record it on? A dvd recorder? So buy a dvd recorder with digital tuner. Soon all dvd-rs will have them, problem solved.

A VCR - or DVD recorder - connected via analogue.

You're also forgetting a simple fact here - your average mum and dad don't want to go out and buy yet another box they have a remote control for, have to read the manual to learn how to use, etc etc etc. They already have a VCR or DVD Recorder, why should they have to go and buy yet another box to replace one that works perfectly well, just to fix their brand spankin new TV's shortcoming???

It is an added outlay of $$$ just to do something they quite rightly believe they should have been able to do in the first place (that is, record the widescreen DTV to their VCR/DVD Recorder).

You're right that once dvd-rs with digital tuners inbuilt become available, all this will become a lot easier. It still doesn't excuse the fact, however, that manufacturers are handicapping a feature on their integrated tvs that many average users expect to be there.

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You're also forgetting a simple fact here - your average mum and dad don't want to go out and buy yet another box they have a remote control for, have to read the manual to learn how to use, etc etc etc. They already have a VCR or DVD Recorder, why should they have to go and buy yet another box to replace one that works perfectly well, just to fix their brand spankin new TV's shortcoming???

Sure, I can hear the mums and dads now....."What, you mean I can't record channel 7 and watch channel 9? Even my vcr could do that!" Sorry, but those who bought analogue tuner dvd-rs need to take their medicine and get into the new age. There is no way around it. Your idea is simply not functional enough for Mr. and Mrs. Average.

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Sorry, but those who bought analogue tuner dvd-rs need to take their medicine and get into the new age.

:blink: So your fix is for them to spend yet more money on a PVR when they were told they wouldn't need an STB because their tv has one built in?

The "new age" where there are dvd recorders that *aren't* analogue still isn't here mate.

There is no way around it. Your idea is simply not functional enough for Mr. and Mrs. Average.

I hate to break it to you, but your idea is far from functional either (apart from the sparkling idea to spend more money!)

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Who said anything about pvrs? :blink: Try finding a pvr that doesn't have a digital tuner already built-in!

er... I'm not trying to.

If mr and mrs average want to watch Ch7 and record Ch9, both via a digital source, then they're going to need some sort of external stb or pvr to do that.

You're suggesting that analogue dvd-recorders aren't good enough - why? If you already own a dvd-recorder, then go and buy a new LCD tv like the Bravia with an integrated digital tuner (in lieu of buying an external STB or PVR like a Topfield) there is a reasonable expectation that you should be able to record the digital broadcast from the tv's inbuilt tuner.

Is that so hard to understand?

The existing DVD-recorder is perfectly capable of taking an input via a composite source and record it. Why shouldn't it be able to come from a digital tuner integrated into a TV? Why should one be expected to go out and buy a digital STB just so they can record their show to their DVD-recorder - they thought they were purchasing the LCD tv with a built-in digital tuner so they DIDN'T have to buy an external STB.

[edited] Never mind, I give up....... :D

Fair enough, I just don't understand why ppl so readily accept expensive electronic equipment from manufacturers that are quite obviously handicapped from what they SHOULD be capable of doing.

I still maintain it is far from an unreasonable expectation to be able to output video from an integrated digital tuner tv - and your average buyer WILL expect it to be able to do that.

In an attempt to stay on topic - I hope the new Bravia's do better than the R-series Sammy's have and actually do offer output as a feature.

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You're suggesting that analogue dvd-recorders aren't good enough

Yep, that's exactly what I'm suggesting, which is probably why I never bought one. Anyway, I said I give up and I mean it this time..... :blink: the latest word is there will be a Sammy revision that will have tv outputs. Who knows about the Bravia though - probably not.

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... that is an added cost, making the panel more expensive than one without a tuner.

A digital tuner is not an expensive addition (put it this way, you can get a HD DVB tuner box for a PC for under $80 if you look around - and that's RETAIL price). The TV has an analogue tuner anyway, which nobody in their right mind is going to use on a 16:9 screen. So why not trash the analogue tuner and put a digital one in its place?

Then there's the fact that Sony has been actually REMOVING the digital tuner (SD only) from their TVs and then selling them at a price a good 30% higher than they sell for on the rest of the planet.

You're suggesting that analogue dvd-recorders aren't good enough - why? If you already own a dvd-recorder, then go and buy a new LCD tv like the Bravia with an integrated digital tuner (in lieu of buying an external STB or PVR like a Topfield) there is a reasonable expectation that you should be able to record the digital broadcast from the tv's inbuilt tuner.

My parents' Panasonic 32" has an integrated HD tuner that does support output to an external recorder. My mother asked recently if there was any way to avoid the fact that when she recorded a show on the VCR, on playback there were "black bars on the sides" (also a compel;ling reason, by the way, for ALL 16:9 displays to include a DVB tuner).

I explained to her that she could hook up the VCR so that she could record off the TV's tuner. How, she asked?

1. Set channel on TV to the one you want to record.

2. Set VCR to AV1 input.

3. Wait for show to start and hit record.

But, she asked, can I not watch anything else while the show I'm recording is on?

Nope.

And, she asked, do I have to be at home and have the TV on the correct channel to record anything?

Yep.

And that was the end of that. I then told her about the PVR I have, which can be picked up for just a shade over $200. She's getting one. Why? Because it behaves like a VCR, with no user intervention required.

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You can bet that adding a tuner would cost sweet FA for Sony. The actual HD-tuner, in bulk, prior to integration, would be a tiny drop in the bucket compared to their profit margin.

A major complicating factor is that they would have a shitload more support calls. Sony's hardware, whilst great, is often accompanied by poor software (sonicstage anyone?) and poor software QA. Just read the threads on Sony's HDMI-STB and twin-tuner PVR. Both were excellent units but necessitated firmware upgrades to maximise benefits and minimize flaws/crashes.

Fancing lugging around your 46" panel to the local Sony repair center for a quick FW flash everytime you read about a great new software fix on the forums? It can take up to a few weeks for them to do what should be nearly an instant service.

OR... if (god forbid) Sony allowed downloadable self-upgrades, would YOU be game to flash that $10K brand new toy of yours?

Integrated tuners are convenient if done well, but separate tuners will still be the go for some time until TVs include a digital stream out for recording or integrated PVRs +/- data out.

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But, she asked, can I not watch anything else while the show I'm recording is on?

Nope.

And, she asked, do I have to be at home and have the TV on the correct channel to record anything?

Yep.

There you are cmcdonald, what more evidence do you need than an actual current user, mrs. NK! It's a feature that borders on useless, no wonder most manufacturers don't bother with it.

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[edited] Never mind, I give up....... :D
There you are cmcdonald, what more evidence do you need than an actual current user, mrs. NK! It's a feature that borders on useless, no wonder most manufacturers don't bother with it.

madmax, I guess you haven't totally given up. :blink:

BTW, I do agree with you.

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madmax, I guess you haven't totally given up. :blink:

Yeah, sorry....couldn't help it, especially when I know I'm right...... :D

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I emailed Sony on this and received the following reply;

"The local KDL46X2000 was announced last week and is slated for release in Australia in October, I do not have a more specific date than that at this stage."

Whilst out the other day the existing 40" Bavia V Series is now priced at $3499. Quite a drop from $5799 only 2 months ago in the same store - Hardly Normal.

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What other TVs are there with 1080p inputs and native resolution. Is Sony X series the only ones coming soon? Are there any other model numbers from other manufacturers I should be googling?

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