37" PYROD LCD (1920x1080) @ KMART

[drsmith]

Does anyone have an instruction manual and the packed box dimensions for this unit?

[razza]

Does anyone have an instruction manual and the packed box dimensions for this unit?

pm me your email address and I will forward you the manual

Wonder if the speakers are detachable?

Gonna go have a look tonite

yes they are detacheable

[Merkava]

I have the manual in .pdf and the dead pixel policy for these Conwa / Pyrod lcd tv's. Send PM if you want a copy.

[Owen]

Hi, I'll have a go at this, although there are others who are far more qualified to answer correctly. But, no. No one is saying that this panel will look worse than a 1366x768 panel when connected to a HD STB (did anyone even make such a comparison). All that was said was that it probably doesn't handle a 1080i input in an ideal manner. It may well look worse than a 1366x768 panel when fed exactly the same signal, but there are a lot of variables, including which 768p panel you're talking about, what deinterlacing method it uses, the quality of its scaler (scaling 1080i to 768p), the distance you stand from the screen, and so on. On the other hand, it could well look better.

That covers it nicely.

Very few, if any current LCD TV’s have effective deinterlacing.

The top range Sonys etc MAY have, depending on the DRC chip used, but it is generally impossible to know.

A PC is the only cost effective deinterlacing solution, and they can work very well, but most people are not going to be using a PC.

To be able to resolve 1920x1080 resolution on a 37” screen, you would need to view it from no more then about 1.5 meters, so even if first class deinterlacing was available, there will be effectively no difference in visible resolution compared to a 768 or 720p display of the same size at a more normal and practical viewing distance.

[evil_josh]

To be able to resolve 1920x1080 resolution on a 37” screen, you would need to view it from no more then about 1.5 meters, so even if first class deinterlacing was available, there will be effectively no difference in visible resolution compared to a 768 or 720p display of the same size at a more normal and practical viewing distance.

Seriously Owen, one day you are going to have to stand in front of a TV and do this test for yourself, because I did it this morning and the numbers you quote above are absolute BS.

I have an 81cm 1366x768 LCD (AWA 1st Gen). According to the claimed rule-of-thumb I should not be able to resolve individual pixels beyond about 1.2 metres.

My LCD has a dark pixel about 15 pixels down from the top and about 100 in from the right. I can easily make it out at two metres whilst a TV program is being showed. At 1.2 metres I can clearly make out the RGB sub-pixels on the screen.

Also I spent about 20 minutes this morning switching between SD and HD "Today" Show on Nine. This is a good HD source when they are in the studio, and when the news is being read there is plenty of time to flick between SD and HD. Again it's a no-brainer at two metres and even from the lounge (about 3 metres) the picture is noticably clearer.

To suggest that for a 37", 1080i display is undecernable from a SD display as 1.5m is utter, Utter, UTTER rubbish. All it does in mis-inform potential panel buyers, which could lead them into making the same mistake that everyone who bought a sub-SD 480 Plasma has made.

Josh.

[Owen]

Seriously Owen, one day you are going to have to stand in front of a TV and do this test for yourself, because I did it this morning and the numbers you quote above are absolute BS.

I have done tests many times, on all type of displays, including LCD PC monitors, and my observations match almost exactly with the standard human visual acuity model that is used is this calculator.

http://www.myhometheater.homestead.com/vie...ancemetric.html

I have an 81cm 1366x768 LCD (AWA 1st Gen). According to the claimed rule-of-thumb I should not be able to resolve individual pixels beyond about 1.2 metres.

My LCD has a dark pixel about 15 pixels down from the top and about 100 in from the right. I can easily make it out at two metres whilst a TV program is being showed. At 1.2 metres I can clearly make out the RGB sub-pixels on the screen.

It’s usually possible to see an individual bright of dark pixel against a contrasting background at considerably greater distances then I quoted.

The point is that can you tell the difference between one of two same colour pixel’s if they are next to each other.

A resolution test pattern consists of one pixel wide black and white alternating line pattern.

Beyond a certain distance the individual black and white lines can no longer be distinguished from each other, and a screen takes on a average grey appearance.

For an 81cm 768p display, this should occur at around 2.1 meters.

At greater viewing distances, you can only see the average of adjoining pixel’s, and not the full resolution of the display.

So, a 1920x1080 display is not going to look better then a 1366x768 of the same size at more then about 2.1 meters.

Also I spent about 20 minutes this morning switching between SD and HD "Today" Show on Nine. This is a good HD source when they are in the studio, and when the news is being read there is plenty of time to flick between SD and HD. Again it's a no-brainer at two metres and even from the lounge (about 3 metres) the picture is noticably clearer.

Many people fall into the rap of comparing an SD feed with a HD feed.

Unfortunately that provides an invalid comparison, as the HD feed is much better then the SD one regardless of resolution.

To make the comparison valid you MUST use the exact same source.

By that I mean you must down scale the HD source with very high quality scaling to the lower resolution you wish to compare against.

To properly compare a 1920x1080 display with a 1366x768 display, you would need to take top quality 1920x1080 video source and scale it to 1366x768 using the best scaling possible.

Both displays are then fed there native resolution 1:1.

A similar comparison of visible resolution can be done using only a 1920x1080 display, by scaling the 1920x1080 video down to 1366x768 and then scaling it back up to 1920x1080 for output to the 1920x1080 display.

Remember that once the video is scaled down to 1366x768, any resolution about that level is permanently lost, so when we scale back up to 1920x1080 we still have only 1366x768 visible resolution.

I can do these scaled video comparisons in real time using FFDShow on my HTPC to a 1920x1200 LCD PC monitor.

To suggest that for a 37", 1080i display is undecernable from a SD display as 1.5m is utter, Utter, UTTER rubbish. All it does in mis-inform potential panel buyers, which could lead them into making the same mistake that everyone who bought a sub-SD 480 Plasma has made.

I never said any such thing.

What I said was:

Quote “cheap LCD’s, as they use bob deinterlacing with 1080i source, which limits vertical resolution to 540.”

And Quote “To be able to resolve 1920x1080 resolution on a 37” screen, you would need to view it from no more then about 1.5 meters, so even if first class deinterlacing was available, there will be effectively no difference in visible resolution compared to a 768 or 720p display of the same size at a more normal and practical viewing distance.”

The thing you have missed here is that only vertical resolution is affected by bob deinterlacing.

Full horizontal resolution is maintained, and that makes a very noticeable difference compared to SD.

Remember also that 1080i HD has up to 4 times the colour resolution of SD, and that in its self makes a considerable difference.

Please show me where I said that “for a 37", 1080i display is undecernable from a SD display as 1.5m”.

SD is going to look like crap at 1.5 meters, and 1080 is going to be fully resolved at that distance, and be as good as is possible to have it.

However, at a greater distance we will not be able to fully resolve the fine detail of 1920x1080.

To make 720x576 look as good as 1920x1080 at 1.5 meters on a 37” screen, you would need to move back to around 3.4 meters.

I hope all this is beginning to make some sence.

[drsmith]

Below is some info from the user manual if anyone wishes to comment.

On page 7, the contrast ratio is specified as 600:1 whereas on the Electronics Australia website at ftp://ftp.jokiin.com/LCD/Pyrod37.jpg it is specified at 800:1.

Response time (Tr/Tf) from the manual is 15/6ms compared to a single figure of 12ms on the Electronics Australia website. Viewing angle H:170, V:170.

According to page 9 on the manual all the external connectors are on a multi-media box which is attacted to the unit by the owner after purchase. The picture of the multimedia box on page 12 however does not show a DVI connection, so I can only assume it is elsewhere on the unit.

HDCP compliance is not specified with the DVI connection.

The unit has motion adaptive de-interlacing.

[fobfob]

Just so people understand, there is no “1080i goodness” with cheap LCD’s, as they use bob deinterlacing with 1080i source, which limits vertical resolution to 540.

The unit has motion adaptive de-interlacing.

Nice try drsmith, but we all know cheap LCDs can never compete with SD plasmas. 480 lines is enough for anyone!

[Guest skipp]

I'm wondering how this display compares with the Soniq 40" @ $1998 (as seen here: http://www.dtvforum.info/index.php?showtopic=36198 ).

Other than the obvious resolution differences.

[jokiin]

On page 7, the contrast ratio is specified as 600:1 whereas on the Electronics Australia website at ftp://ftp.jokiin.com/LCD/Pyrod37.jpg it is specified at 800:1.

Response time (Tr/Tf) from the manual is 15/6ms compared to a single figure of 12ms on the Electronics Australia website. Viewing angle H:170, V:170.

Just to clear this up, the brochure is sitting on my FTP server for convenience sake for any that wanted more info, I'm not associated with Electronics Australia in any way, my server has nothing to do with their website. Don't want any confusion over this, thanks

[drsmith]

Nice try drsmith, but we all know cheap LCDs can never compete with SD plasmas. 480 lines is enough for anyone!

One of the plasma vs LCD war lords is a little trigger happy tonight. I'll just stick my head up into the firing line between the trenches long enough to say,

fobfob,

the information I have provided is sourced from the user manual as indicated in the first sentence of the post you are referring to.

With regards to the difference is specs between the Electronics Australia website (edit: correction, jok11n's FTP server) and the user manual, it is known that the unit uses an AUO 37" panel. If someone knows the model number and specs of the AUO panel in the Pyrod, this info would be very useful. Hopefully information on the panel itself will shed some light on the actual specs and the AUO panel used.

The specs on jok11n's FTP server correspond with the AUO panel T370HW01 V.0, detailed info on the T370HW01 V.0 at http://cn.fpdisplay.com/technology/uploadf...04123165423.pdf

[jokiin]

the information I have provided is sourced from the user manual.

Unfortunately that's not always a reliable source either when dealing with generic brands

[Guest goodnite]

According to page 9 on the manual all the external connectors are on a multi-media box which is attacted to the unit by the owner after purchase. The picture of the multimedia box on page 12 however does not show a DVI connection, so I can only assume it is elsewhere on the unit.

All analog connectors are through the external box as mentioned. Underneath where the multi-media box attaches to the panel are the Serial (for firmware updates I guess), DVI, VGA & 3.5" audio socket in (perhaps from the PC to be played through the panel's speakers. Without the multimedia box, I gather the panel can just be treated as a LCD monitor ready to be connected to the PC. (Although I have not tried without the multimedia box connected).

Goodnite

[xtractdigit]

O F!F!S! ffs know what thwt means I hope . LISTEN "read" Owen dont talk shat LISTEN to him DONT get caught up in the bullcrap. If you like it buy it . In 3 years times or weeks use it as a sports update drinks table . Sorry Im vewy tired this week and I installed a pci H's'DtV card in my sys and killed it. Usb forever for meeeee.

[drsmith]

Unfortunately that's not always a reliable source either when dealing with generic brands

True, but I have more faith in the user manual than I do in a plasma vs LCD warlord firing rubbish from one side of the battlefield.

hopefully there is a reference to the AUO panel used in the Pyrod on the unit itself that will clear up any uncertainty with the specs. I'm hoping that the info on your ftp server is correct and the panel has a contrast ratio of 800:1, not 600:1 as specified in the user manual.

[jokiin]

Well I hope it's correct, when this panel was first released they printed a brochure that had 768x1366 instead of 1080x1920, it went un-noticed for about 3 months, so mistakes definately happen. There was a link here somewhere in one of the threads to the AU website which has some panel details which would no doubt be more accurate, there have been a few revisions of this same panel though so you need to be looking at the right one. Regardless it can do 1080p at up to 72Hz which is pretty good for a panel of this price.

[evil_josh]

One of the plasma vs LCD war lords is a little trigger happy tonight.

I am not sure if fobfob is anti plasma, I think anti 480p is more accurate.

One of the reasons I have started biting on these threads is that more and more of the so-called experts seem to be creating the impression that 1920 by 1080 is "more than you will ever need", citing obscure tests, signal processing theories that few people know about, and using unbounded statemets (such as 'we will never see reasonable quality 1080i video in the forseeable future') to support their case.

These statements remind me of a similar claim made some time ago:

"I think there is a world market for maybe five computers." — Thomas J Watson, Chairman of the Board, IBM.

It also makes me start to wonder if these people are just giving bad advice, or if they are so insecure about their own 480 plasmas that they must convince everyone (including themselves) that 480p is a good choice.

Hi-def content continues to grow, both on TV, in video games, and on portable media (ie HD DVD in the various flavours). Entertainment technologies will continue to converge so that TV will be just one use for your display panel. To handle this we need to be informed and I start to wonder how much information is being conveyed as opposed to opinion.

So by all means lets debate bob vs fred interlacers and Kell vs Kath factors but lets keep it to like vs like. A 1080 panel with a bob interlacer may only have 540 effective lines, which is great to know if I am looking at two 1080 panels as this may be a factor in my puschasing decision. However 540 is still better than 480, as is 576p and 720p all of which a 1080 panel will support.

My 2c

Josh.

[Guest goodnite]

All analog connectors are through the external box as mentioned. Underneath where the multi-media box attaches to the panel are the Serial (for firmware updates I guess), DVI, VGA & 3.5" audio socket in (perhaps from the PC to be played through the panel's speakers. Without the multimedia box, I gather the panel can just be treated as a LCD monitor ready to be connected to the PC. (Although I have not tried without the multimedia box connected).

Goodnite

Just to confirm, the panel itself without the analogue input multimedia box is just a big 1920x1080 LCD monitor. I was able to hook me PC via VGA and DVI and it displays fine. Haven't pushed it to 1920x1080 yet.. 1280x768 looks mighty fine on this panel. Setting it to 1920x1200 case it to display a blank screen with some words stating out of range Can't seem to set the video to 1920x1080 on this onboard video card PC. I will need to unhook me other PC to plug into it to test out the 1920x1080 (probably tomorrow night.)

Goodnite

[DaveMews]

Can't seem to set the video to 1920x1080 on this onboard video card PC. I will need to unhook me other PC to plug into it to test out the 1920x1080 (probably tomorrow night.)

have you tried installing powerstrip to override your cards preset res and set it to 1920x1080 manually?

[Owen]

One of the reasons I have started biting on these threads is that more and more of the so-called experts seem to be creating the impression that 1920 by 1080 is "more than you will ever need", citing obscure tests, signal processing theories that few people know about, and using unbounded statemets (such as 'we will never see reasonable quality 1080i video in the forseeable future') to support their case.

If the above was directed at my posts, once again you have misquoted me.

I have never said that “1920x1080 is more then you will ever need”.

What I have said is that unless you are prepared to view from a close enough distance, 1920x1080 will be no better the 1366x768, or even much lower resolutions if the viewing distance is great enough.

Very few people normally view a TV from a distance close enough to be able to resolve 1920x1080, especially the smaller displays under 50”.

The 37” display being discussed in this thread would need to be viewed from no more then about 1.5 meters for the average human eye to fully resolve 1920x1080 resolution.

At 2.5 meters, you would only be able to resolve 768p.

I also never said that “we will never see reasonable quality 1080i video in the forseeable future”.

There is plenty of much better then reasonable 1080 HD available, and has been for years.

What I have said is that no available 1920x1080 video ever has 1920x1080 VISIBLE resolution, due to capture limitations, filtering and video compression, and this will not change in the foreseeable future.

It also makes me start to wonder if these people are just giving bad advice, or if they are so insecure about their own 480 plasmas that they must convince everyone (including themselves) that 480p is a good choice.

I don’t know if this is directed at me, but I do not own a Plasma.

I use a 57” 1080i display, and would not even consider a lower res display in that size, as I view from 2.8 meters. A 60” plus 768p Plasma has visible pixel structure at that distance.

Hi-def content continues to grow, both on TV, in video games, and on portable media (ie HD DVD in the various flavours). Entertainment technologies will continue to converge so that TV will be just one use for your display panel. To handle this we need to be informed and I start to wonder how much information is being conveyed as opposed to opinion.

The human visual acuity model is not my opinion, but well accepted fact.

I suggest you display some resolution test patterns on your PC monitor to test your own visual acuity before you dispute the scientific findings.

I have tested my vision, and it matches the human visual acuity model very closely.

So by all means lets debate bob vs fred interlacers and Kell vs Kath factors but lets keep it to like vs like. A 1080 panel with a bob interlacer may only have 540 effective lines, which is great to know if I am looking at two 1080 panels as this may be a factor in my puschasing decision. However 540 is still better than 480, as is 576p and 720p all of which a 1080 panel will support.

At what viewing distance do you expect the average consumer to view a 37” TV

[Guest instigator]

I want to get rid of my 21" CRT monitor and use this 37" as my main monitor for internet browsing and all sorts and for movies, games, TV aswell.

I have a big desk so I can sit far enough away from it.

Cause I was originally looking at getting a Dell 2407 but its not big enough for games and movies in my opinion.

Also I dont think I have HDCP card anyway so i dont think thats a big concern?

[Ajax9000]

... There was a link here somewhere in one of the threads to the AU website ...

See posts 62 & 70: http://www.dtvforum.info/index.php?showtopic=31037&st=60

Adrian

[jokiin]

See posts 62 & 70: http://www.dtvforum.info/index.php?showtopic=31037&st=60

Adrian

Thanks, I was too tired to go looking for it

[evil_josh]

What I have said is that no available 1920x1080 video ever has 1920x1080 VISIBLE resolution, due to capture limitations, filtering and video compression, and this will not change in the foreseeable future.

Exactly my point - statements such as this convey no information and mask opinion as fact. Please define "forseeable" in your context - 1 year? 5 years?.

In any case you're wrong. CCD sensors are already well beyond the Kell minimum for 1920 x 1080 and as I have said before there are no sensor or capture limitations on computer generated imagery. As soon as someone from Pixar checks the 1080 box and hits "render" every Pixar movie will be available in 1920x1080 resolution. Likewise with King Kong, start wars I-III, LOTR and a host of others.

Filtering and compression exploit spatial and temporal redundancy in a video picture and thus do not directly impact the visible resolution at the pixel level. The output of lossy compression is a picture containing errors, not a picture with less resolution. If the compression is good these errors are small.

Blu-ray has been announced, xbox360 runs at 1080i, I am pretty sure that PS3 will too and just about any PC you buy today can render 1920x1080 video.

1080i and "1920x1080 visible" is here now. It may not be in broadcast TV but it is here is many formats that panels are used for.

To repeat my earlier point - These panels are more than just TV's. If people want to use a panel for more than a TV then they need to evaluate more than just it's TV performance. This Acer sounds like a good device because it will perform well as a TV from a distance and also perform well as a computer screen up closer.

BTW, none of the previous post was directly directed at you, rather it was my subjective summary of posts in this and other threads, by yourself and others.

At what viewing distance do you expect the average consumer to view a 37” TV

I expect the average consumer to adjust their viewing distance according to the task they are performing. I view at about 2.5-3m when watching TV, at about 1m when using the HTPC as a PC, and I pull the lounge up close when watching a movie to get a better experience and to compromise for the smaller screen.

Josh

[drsmith]

At what viewing distance do you expect the average consumer to view a 37” TV

Well, if it's 1920x1080 resoultion,

High definition can be viewed from a position close to the T.V.

Standard definition can be viewed from further away.

The display can also be used as a high resolution computer monitor.

This may not be to the liking of the great resolution warlord, Mr Owen Average, but who is he to assume that we all fit into the catagory of average consumers.

BTW, does anyone know where video footage of various test patterns can be found so I can burn them to DVD and use them to test the Pyrod at Kmart?