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Pana Vs NEC

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I think alot of you people have no idea when you say, this brand plasma uses that brand's glass and think that it is equal even though its cheaper........

I think you need to realise that it all comes down to the processing side of it

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Has anyone had a good look at the new NEC (XR4) yet? Have thay addressed the previously flagged problems?

I love the picture on the Fuji, but then start thinking of the $500+ difference in price. A bit of a play with the adjustment instore and the PQ on the Fuji and the NEC VR3 moved closer - but try watching credits side-by and you could see a noticable judder in the NEC.

Kent

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Has anyone had a good look at the new NEC (XR4) yet? Have thay addressed the previously flagged problems?

I love the picture on the Fuji, but then start thinking of the $500+ difference in price. A bit of a play with the adjustment instore and the PQ on the Fuji and the NEC VR3 moved closer - but try watching credits side-by and you could see a noticable judder in the NEC.

Kent

Many have stated the juddering issues with NEC's.

I thought they would have fixed this by now.

Incidently you will not find a smoother picture than the Fuji.

My only grief with Fuji plasma's was their blacks, as I preferred a deep rich colour and opted for the Pana.

If Fuji have improved their blacks then 500 bucks is well worth spending.

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I think alot of you people have no idea when you say, this brand plasma uses that brand's glass and think that it is equal even though its cheaper........

I think you need to realise that it all comes down to the processing side of it

Exactly.

Just because 2 computers use the same intel processor, it doesn't mean that they will perform equally. Far from it.

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Has anyone had a good look at the new NEC (XR4) yet? Have thay addressed the previously flagged problems?

I love the picture on the Fuji, but then start thinking of the $500+ difference in price. A bit of a play with the adjustment instore and the PQ on the Fuji and the NEC VR3 moved closer - but try watching credits side-by and you could see a noticable judder in the NEC.

Kent

No juddering at all, NEC's are perfection now.

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If you are happy spend twice as much for little to no difference in PQ than away you go no-one stopped you from doing so but don't tell us that your Fuji is "far better" than any other as I very much doubt they are.

The Fuji is nowhere near twice as much, and the difference in PQ accross the board is miles ahead of the competition in my set-up with "my gear" (Just to clarify why it may look better to "me")

But even in numerous stores comparing displays against each other, it just beats them all and is really an obvious standout.

Bear in mind also that I look at PQ....not brand names like some people here obviously do.

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I laugh at some of the posts honestly. the way people portray how much better one plasmas is vs the another or how much worse one is vs the other.

If we're talkign current top tier brand plasma fuji, pio, pana, hitachi - with a bit of effort put into them in calibration to give a natural picture and really then we're just talking subtle differences between them. I'd be happy with either really.

Now only one I haven't seen is the NEC but nothign suggests to me its goign ot be somethign ground breaking to blow all the others away. Improvments with this stuff is incremental not revolutionary as some are making out.

And the main thing with the NEC which no one has mentioned yet is the deredded judder at 60hz or solarisation at 50hz that plagued the previous model. What is to say the new model does nto have those same issues. Haven't read any confirmation of that aspect.

And yes the fuji 50" has pana glass. the fuji 42" hitachi glass. NEC ? yeah nothign to say it does not have pio glass.

And no hitachi does not own fuji. Hitachi has full ownership of the previously hitachi/fuji owned plasma manufacturing business. Fuji now just use other peoples glass for their own brand plasmas.

Hi Alebonau,

I do agree with your comments - I'd be happy with most top of the line plasmas out there and technology in plasmas have evolved incrementally... let's hope SED is a revolution!

the NEC 42 & 50 uses Pio glass and a lot of the pio technology - the new pio panel later in the year will be a 42" model (unlike the current 43" version).

thanks for the clarification on the hitachi owenership of fuji plasma factory - I really wasn't sure on that one.

I have not yet seen judder on the NEC 42" (haven't seen a 50 in person yet) - I watched the 42" in 4 separate occasions - however I have not seen either credits or sport on it yet.... I did see slow panning movements and I didn't notice any judder... but this is something I would inspect extremely carefully prior to a purchase... as judder would drive me nuts ....

gotta do some more in-store inspection .... see if I can see any judder!

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I laugh at some of the posts honestly. the way people portray how much better one plasmas is vs the another or how much worse one is vs the other.

If we're talkign current top tier brand plasma fuji, pio, pana, hitachi - with a bit of effort put into them in calibration to give a natural picture and really then we're just talking subtle differences between them. I'd be happy with either really.

Now only one I haven't seen is the NEC but nothign suggests to me its goign ot be somethign ground breaking to blow all the others away. Improvments with this stuff is incremental not revolutionary as some are making out.

And the main thing with the NEC which no one has mentioned yet is the deredded judder at 60hz or solarisation at 50hz that plagued the previous model. What is to say the new model does nto have those same issues. Haven't read any confirmation of that aspect.

And yes the fuji 50" has pana glass. the fuji 42" hitachi glass. NEC ? yeah nothign to say it does not have pio glass.

And no hitachi does not own fuji. Hitachi has full ownership of the previously hitachi/fuji owned plasma manufacturing business. Fuji now just use other peoples glass for their own brand plasmas.

Probably one of the most sensible posts I have read in recent times about the differences in quality.

The Fuji is nowhere near twice as much, and the difference in PQ accross the board is miles ahead of the competition in my set-up with "my gear" (Just to clarify why it may look better to "me")

But even in numerous stores comparing displays against each other, it just beats them all and is really an obvious standout.

Bear in mind also that I look at PQ....not brand names like some people here obviously do.

I prefer LG

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Quick NEC XR4 Test

ok - Called my local Hi fi shop and asked if it would be ok to set up a DVD player on the NEC 42" so I could test some discs - the owner said not a problem, so I drove down there and spent about 40 mins inspecting the NEC 42" ...

I took a Video Essentials PAL calibrating disk, the US Special Edition of the Fifth Element and a PAL disc - "Lost in Space" (Lots of moving action and dark scenes).

We hooked up a Yamaha 675 DVD player using decent (Geko) component cables - turned off the progressive option, so it was sending an interlaced signal and also set the panel option on the DVD player to multiformat, so the DVD player wouldn't be doing the 50/60 hz conversion - this way most of the processing should be done by the panel itself.

Calibration

Didn't have time to properly calibrate the panel using the DVE PAL disc - used some settings posted in the US website. The colours looked saturated but not over the top and you could see a lot of detail in dark scenes - not perfect but good enough to test it. The Fuji 50" next to it didn't look as good as the NEC - (dark & colour saturation) - HOWEVER, the AV specialist guy, said he had previously seen several Fuji 50s" much better calibrated then the one at his shop..... which looked ok, but not worth raving about. So its not really a fair comparisson.

DVD Tests

Lost in Space

The dark scenes looked excellent. The fast motion scenes also looked great. My only bad comment is that I could see a fair amount of grain in the image - once I turned the the NR1 to on and set the picture to 'theatre 1' - the grain in the image was reduced but it was still there. The image was sharp with excellent colour saturation - you could see all the details in dark scenes - and this was in a reasonable well lit shop.

Fifth Element

Dark scenes looked great. Once again I had to use the NR 1 and theatre mode 1 to reduce grain from the image - once this was done, the movie had a strong film-like appeareance with well saturated colours.

However.... what about the judder the old NECs used to have I hear you ask..... you know one of the initial scenes when they are down at the pyramids.... the old man is yelling 'Azziz... Light!' ... the old man is slowly brushing of hyroglyphs... and low and behold... as the camera pans slowly downwards to reveal the drawings.... you can see judder.... yap judder... and this is on a 60hz, NTSC film.... it shouldn't be there..... but it is... once I saw the judder.. that was it for me.. moved on......

I went back to the 'Lost in Space' disc to check the credits..... again, judder.... PAL disc with judder.... ARGHHHHHHHHHH ....

the other plasmas in the shop started to show the Chanel 7 HD news... which had a news ticker at the bottom of the image... moved on to test HDTV .... 50hz...

Channel 7 HD TV - News ticker

Ok, checking the 7 HD TV newsticker at the bottom of the plasma..... yap... JUDDER ..... the other plasma displays panels which were linked to the same Toshiba HD box (Fuji 50", Sharp 37", Hitachi 55" and Toshiba 42") .... no other plasma was showing any judder on the scrolling news ticker.... all solid, smoth rolling action.... except the NEC ... clearly there was judder there.... so much so, my eyes got tired, and I had a slight feeling of 'sea/motion sickness' .... had to look away.... the fuji panel beside it looked like a calm sea in comparisson.... rock solid, no judder....

changing channels, the SD images looked very, very good.. the 4:3 images could be streched to 16:9 in non-linear fashion... I couldn't tell the image was being streched at all ... looked great... HD images also looked very good..... but everytime I changed back to Channel 7 HD... the newsticker killed me.... I couldn't stop comparing it to the smooth scrolling news ticker of the Fuji 50" and hitachi 55" seating next to the NEC ....

Defective Panel??? Not sure ... but it looks like Judder to me...

The AV guy said he believes it could be a faulty panel as when he first installed it, he couldn't see any judder and now he can see lots of it - apparently 'wheel of fortune' was showing a huge amount of judder yesterday.... which is just 'wrong' really. He will replace the current panel with another NEC he has in stock - run the same DVDs (I left them there for him to test) and if he sees an improvement (NO Judder) - he will let me know.... if it looks better... I will go and verify it for myself again.

Final Comments

The NEC has excellent black levels and shows a lot of detail in dark scenes. The colours look natural and saturated, I did not notice any red push. Overall the images were very detailed and crisp - so much so, that there was some grain on the image... once the NR 1 setting was on (NR 1 to 4 is available - 1 is the lowest) and the picture mode set to theatre, the image was still very detailed and crisp but with less grain. I believe once it is properly calibrated, the amount of grain seen should reduce.... but as it was, from 2m away, it was fine.

Which brings me now to the last item.... Judder.... yap .. I could see it on scrolling news ticker and slow panning montion.... not that I'm intending just to watch news tickers or panning motions... but it did bother me.... will this bother most people???? I can't say... people outside this forum probably wouldn't notice it much... and even if they did, how many would think that the judder was actually something wrong with the panel??? I don't know.... the only thing I know about the judder is that - It bothers me. :blink:

So .... I'm waiting to see if the other NEC 42" the AV shop puts up has the same judder.... somehow I think it will .....

I'm off to test the Pio Professional range in the next few weeks.....

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Probably one of the most sensible posts I have read in recent times about the differences in quality.

I prefer LG

:P:P:D:P

Obviously not a quality above all else person then are you :blink:

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Brand Snob.

:blink:

I am not interested in brands, but I am interested in well above the average PQ and reliability.

...Something the LG fails from miserably on both counts.

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Quick NEC XR4 Test

SNIP - lots of useful stuff

Final Comments

The NEC has excellent black levels and shows a lot of detail in dark scenes. The colours look natural and saturated, I did not notice any red push. Overall the images were very detailed and crisp - so much so, that there was some grain on the image... once the NR 1 setting was on (NR 1 to 4 is available - 1 is the lowest) and the picture mode set to theatre, the image was still very detailed and crisp but with less grain. I believe once it is properly calibrated, the amount of grain seen should reduce.... but as it was, from 2m away, it was fine.

Which brings me now to the last item.... Judder.... yap .. I could see it on scrolling news ticker and slow panning montion.... not that I'm intending just to watch news tickers or panning motions... but it did bother me.... will this bother most people???? I can't say... people outside this forum probably wouldn't notice it much... and even if they did, how many would think that the judder was actually something wrong with the panel??? I don't know.... the only thing I know about the judder is that - It bothers me. :P

So .... I'm waiting to see if the other NEC 42" the AV shop puts up has the same judder.... somehow I think it will .....

I'm off to test the Pio Professional range in the next few weeks.....

big_marcelo,

Thanks for the review. Lots of info in a short time.

Overall the panel comes out well but as you noted it's a shame about the judder issue. Too much an issue/flaw for some.

You obviously didn't check another prospective NEC owner's review. I've taken the liberty of reposting the full review below to save you having to search. :blink:

No juddering at all, NEC's are perfection now.

Look forward to the review of the Pioneer Professional range.

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I cant wait to see Ob's reaction.

Doubt we will see him - last I heard he was busy listing his near new NEC on eBay :blink:

(he tires of these panel very quickly you know)

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Quick NEC XR4 Test

~

I'm off to test the Pio Professional range in the next few weeks.....

well done marcello for checking out - this is what the likes of obitus need to be doing rather than reading forums and drooling over soemthign and beleiveing its the best thing since slice bread !

well done too you checked the judder. unfortunate its there. only way to remove it the guys found with the previous gen necs was to run it 50hz but then it apparently started to solarise. not a good compromise.

anyways looks liek still necs achiles heel...and yes onto checking out the pio's for you.

edit marcelo you should post yoru test in the review section will be of interest ot people there and sit out on its own rather than lost in the guts of this thread

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the only thing I know about the judder is that - It bothers me. sad.gif

Great review Big_marcelo

Once again one of the best Panels on the market has inherited problems. Why on earth didnt Nec fix it this time round.

:blink:

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well done too you checked the judder. unfortunate its there. only way to remove it the guys found with the previous gen necs was to run it 50hz but then it apparently started to solarise. not a good compromise.

There's a possibility that it may not solarise as much as the previous model when you set it to 50Hz, it could be worth checking out.

Now all Marcelo needs to do is read through all 78 pages of that NEC thread to find out how to get into the service menu and change it to 50Hz :blink:

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Quick NEC XR4 Test

ok - Called my local Hi fi shop and asked if it would be ok to set up a DVD player on the NEC 42" so I could test some discs - the owner said not a problem, so I drove down there and spent about 40 mins inspecting the NEC 42" ...

I took a Video Essentials PAL calibrating disk, the US Special Edition of the Fifth Element and a PAL disc - "Lost in Space" (Lots of moving action and dark scenes).

We hooked up a Yamaha 675 DVD player using decent (Geko) component cables - turned off the progressive option, so it was sending an interlaced signal and also set the panel option on the DVD player to multiformat, so the DVD player wouldn't be doing the 50/60 hz conversion - this way most of the processing should be done by the panel itself.

Calibration

Didn't have time to properly calibrate the panel using the DVE PAL disc - used some settings posted in the US website. The colours looked saturated but not over the top and you could see a lot of detail in dark scenes - not perfect but good enough to test it. The Fuji 50" next to it didn't look as good as the NEC - (dark & colour saturation) - HOWEVER, the AV specialist guy, said he had previously seen several Fuji 50s" much better calibrated then the one at his shop..... which looked ok, but not worth raving about. So its not really a fair comparisson.

DVD Tests

Lost in Space

The dark scenes looked excellent. The fast motion scenes also looked great. My only bad comment is that I could see a fair amount of grain in the image - once I turned the the NR1 to on and set the picture to 'theatre 1' - the grain in the image was reduced but it was still there. The image was sharp with excellent colour saturation - you could see all the details in dark scenes - and this was in a reasonable well lit shop.

Fifth Element

Dark scenes looked great. Once again I had to use the NR 1 and theatre mode 1 to reduce grain from the image - once this was done, the movie had a strong film-like appeareance with well saturated colours.

However.... what about the judder the old NECs used to have I hear you ask..... you know one of the initial scenes when they are down at the pyramids.... the old man is yelling 'Azziz... Light!' ... the old man is slowly brushing of hyroglyphs... and low and behold... as the camera pans slowly downwards to reveal the drawings.... you can see judder.... yap judder... and this is on a 60hz, NTSC film.... it shouldn't be there..... but it is... once I saw the judder.. that was it for me.. moved on......

I went back to the 'Lost in Space' disc to check the credits..... again, judder.... PAL disc with judder.... ARGHHHHHHHHHH ....

the other plasmas in the shop started to show the Chanel 7 HD news... which had a news ticker at the bottom of the image... moved on to test HDTV .... 50hz...

Channel 7 HD TV - News ticker

Ok, checking the 7 HD TV newsticker at the bottom of the plasma..... yap... JUDDER ..... the other plasma displays panels which were linked to the same Toshiba HD box (Fuji 50", Sharp 37", Hitachi 55" and Toshiba 42") .... no other plasma was showing any judder on the scrolling news ticker.... all solid, smoth rolling action.... except the NEC ... clearly there was judder there.... so much so, my eyes got tired, and I had a slight feeling of 'sea/motion sickness' .... had to look away.... the fuji panel beside it looked like a calm sea in comparisson.... rock solid, no judder....

changing channels, the SD images looked very, very good.. the 4:3 images could be streched to 16:9 in non-linear fashion... I couldn't tell the image was being streched at all ... looked great... HD images also looked very good..... but everytime I changed back to Channel 7 HD... the newsticker killed me.... I couldn't stop comparing it to the smooth scrolling news ticker of the Fuji 50" and hitachi 55" seating next to the NEC ....

Defective Panel??? Not sure ... but it looks like Judder to me...

The AV guy said he believes it could be a faulty panel as when he first installed it, he couldn't see any judder and now he can see lots of it - apparently 'wheel of fortune' was showing a huge amount of judder yesterday.... which is just 'wrong' really. He will replace the current panel with another NEC he has in stock - run the same DVDs (I left them there for him to test) and if he sees an improvement (NO Judder) - he will let me know.... if it looks better... I will go and verify it for myself again.

Final Comments

The NEC has excellent black levels and shows a lot of detail in dark scenes. The colours look natural and saturated, I did not notice any red push. Overall the images were very detailed and crisp - so much so, that there was some grain on the image... once the NR 1 setting was on (NR 1 to 4 is available - 1 is the lowest) and the picture mode set to theatre, the image was still very detailed and crisp but with less grain. I believe once it is properly calibrated, the amount of grain seen should reduce.... but as it was, from 2m away, it was fine.

Which brings me now to the last item.... Judder.... yap .. I could see it on scrolling news ticker and slow panning montion.... not that I'm intending just to watch news tickers or panning motions... but it did bother me.... will this bother most people???? I can't say... people outside this forum probably wouldn't notice it much... and even if they did, how many would think that the judder was actually something wrong with the panel??? I don't know.... the only thing I know about the judder is that - It bothers me. :blink:

So .... I'm waiting to see if the other NEC 42" the AV shop puts up has the same judder.... somehow I think it will .....

I'm off to test the Pio Professional range in the next few weeks.....

Must have been a faulty panel, I've seen the NEC running and there was no judder. As the majority of people on avsforum have said, no judder. Yap, no judder, yap, no.... judder... yap. :P

Speaking of judder though, this steaming pile fujitsu I have has massive judder on scrolling txt, horrible.

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Must have been a faulty panel, I've seen the NEC running and there was no judder.

Unlikely to be a faulty panel. That would require a very strange fault in the processing to simply introduce judder to the picture with no other noticeable problems.

I think it’s far more likely that you didn’t notice the judder and it's still as present as ever (like all previous NEC panels).

As the majority of people on avsforum have said, no judder. Yap, no judder, yap, no.... judder... yap. :blink:

That would make sense, as AVS is a US forum and NEC panels have always been optimised for 60hz markets. They have silky smooth motion for native 60hz sources, but internally convert all 50hz signals to 60hz which introduces the judder. If it's anything like the last series you can change the panel to 50hz in the service menu, but this introduces terrible solarisation, false contouring and noise.

Note that there will always be some judder present for films, as they are shot at 24fps and suffer from a natural film motion judder. Its native video sources (anything shot at 50i or 60i such as news, current affairs and sport) that should be used for testing for motion problems.

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Speaking of judder though, this steaming pile fujitsu I have has massive judder on scrolling txt, horrible.

Hey Obi

Youve got one hell of a faulty Fuji . Ive seen loads of Fujis and not one has juddered.

P.s can I have some of what ever your smoking ?

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this steaming pile fujitsu I have has massive judder on scrolling txt, horrible.

I thought you sold it for $3000?

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