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A warning to all video gamers re: plasmas


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Just thought I'd share my experiences on here to everyone out there who has an Xbox, PS2 or GameCube. You CANNOT use plasma screens for video gaming!!!

Why? Because all plasmas regardless of brand or price have an inherent picture delay of anywhere between 30-140ms. Doesn't sound like much and most people probably wouldn't even notice it, but if you are a musician or a video gamer you WILL notice.

The issue of lip synch probs has been well documented in the past and it seems the only solution is to buy an amplifier than can introduce an audio delay.

Unfortunately though, buying a new amp won't change the fact that at your next Halo 2 LAN everyone who plays on your plasma will be 30-140 ms behind the opposition. If you know anything about cmoputer games you will know that ANY amount of time delay is the difference between life and death. My plasma is 70ms delayed in processing its picture and it is the difference between me winning every game I play or losing it. I am dead serious. The effect is really this profound. The effect of the delay also means that not only will your response times be out, but also your accuracy since the screen does not react as soon as you move your thumbstick or press the button on the controller.

So heed this warning all gamers - don't buy plasma or LCD if you intend to play video games because these display devices just don't cut it. Stick to CRT's until the technology has a chance to catch up. I have spoken to several TV manufacter's (e.g. LG Samsung, Fujitsu, Pioneer, Panasonic) service departments and they all say that plasmas have this problem.

I found this out the hard way - learn from my mistakes

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If your DVD movies are out of sync because the video is BEHIND the audio then obviously the TV is taking longer to process the video info than your amp. I have done multiple comparisons at Megamart where the manager was kind enough to let me run riot with testing and the CRTs were perfectly in sync whereas ALL the plasmas were out of sync.

If the video is taking longer to process than the audio then obviously this will affect computer gaming because you can't really do anything to adjust the speed of the video signal (unlike with DVD's where you can buy a receiver that introduces audio delay).

Slower video processing times for plasma TV's is not a myth - just google it and you'll see multiple discussions on line.

Also check out this article http://www.audioholics.com/techtips/specsf...sync_delay.html

If it's taking longer for our plasmas to process the video signal of course the effects will be more pronounced in a medium such as computer gaming where milliseconds are critical.

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Well my friend own an internet cafe with 19" LCD monitors and still packed with happy campers... LCD TV is LCD monitor with a tuner...Besides, I am not well off like you to be able to use plasma for mostly gaming purpose if not exclusive... My plasma does the fantastic job for my DVDs, and TV and of course occassional PS2 (minor).... so I am very happy with what my plasma is offering... then again.. it may just be me..

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Like I said, the layperson wouldn't notice, but I have trained senses from playing instruments so I notice. Most gamers also have very attuned senses.

Thing is, one I show people the problem at my house usign a simple demonstration with a CRT EVERYONE notices. And once you notice - you will never want a plasma. It is annoying to the point of being unbearable.

Dunnow whether LCD's are significantly but I was told by a Fujitsu, Panasonic and NEC rep that they have the same issue

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Like I said, the layperson wouldn't notice, but I haev trained senses from lpayign instruments so I notice. Most gamers also have very attuned senses.

Thing is, one I show people the problem at my house usign a simple demonstration with a CRT EVERYONE notices. And once you notice - you will never want a plasma. It is annoying to the point of being unbearable

Ok....I heard of internet ping lagging and you always fall behind everyone else so you get killed so easily in Counter Strike etc...but I do not own an XBOX so never tried Halo. I follow your logic and accept the fact that could be very possible. However, as I said before I don't know how many people out there who are hardcore gamers like yourself and not going to buy plasma purely based on the fact its incapble of playing networked XBOX?

I think you are offering somewhat very valuable information for hardcore gamers... but from what I gather hanging around in this forum for few months now... can't seems to find such types of people easily....may be their young teenager kids may try convince their parents not to buy plasma for the reson you just have provided and told off by their parents...I can see that ahppening most defintely...

Though something to look out for.. and see how technology overcome this problem so you can get the perfect plasma of your liking dude.

Cheers

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but from what I gather hanging around in this forum for few months now... can't seems to find such types of people easily....may be their young teenager kids may try convince their parents not to buy plasma for the reson you just have provided and told off by their parents...I can see that ahppening most defintely...

Cheers

Yes you have strong point there. Lately though, video gaming has moved into the mainstream more due to the multiple capabilities of the latest generation of gaming consoles (e.g. DVD playback) so I thought people should know that they are spending thousands of dollars on something that may not be able to do precisely everything that they thought.

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I'm obviously going to be corrected very quickly if i am wrong but i was under the impression that he exploding gas in plasmas has a response time under 5ms.

That is why you don't see any ghosting on current gen plasmas.

Audio sinc issues? These seem isolated to certain dvd players. I've certainly not noticed a sync issue on HDTV.

As far as PC gaming goes. I do a bit on my 50" and that includes CS:S, UT2004 etc. I have not noticed any lagging whatsoever. Screen response is excellent. No ghosting or smearing. Only problem is syncing to 60hz. So that generally means tearing.

Your main problem could be adapting to a large screen as the minute finger movements need to be altered to allow for such large screens. So that may mean accuracy issues. So, if your having trouble targeting then maybe there are other issues realetd to the xbox. I'll pu Halo2 on and give in a go on-line. But i'm **** anyway.

PC gaming has come alive for me on the plasma.

Largely i believe your comments relate to frames per second (ie rendering speed) of the xbox and not to the mechanics of the plasma. Bear in mind that Halo2 has serious sync problems with sound anyway and that the graphics are substandard and all the results in a less than optimal gaming experience.

hmmmm..... Interested in your thoughts.

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Yes you have strong point there. Lately though, video gaming has moved into the mainstream more due to the multiple capabilities of the latest generation of gaming consoles (e.g. DVD playback) so I thought people should know that they are spending thousands of dollars on something that may not be able to do precisely everything that they thought.

In fact.. what you are pointing out could become a huge issue when XBOX 360 and PS3 are all out promoting more of online gaming. I really have to hope when my kids become old enough to own their own plasma for their gaming room etc we will get the response time like CRTs..

thanks for your info.. something to look out for really...

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As for the above, no it is NOT due to me adpating to larger screen as my logic re: audio sync PROVES. If I can hook THE SAME dvd player up using the SAME cables to a CRT and then a plasma and notice considerable delay in the plasma and not the CRT, then it IS the plasma. The only thing I am changing is the display panel, so it is a simple process of elimination. Your above quote although I know you were just offering an alternate opinion (which I welcome) but this is exactly what most of the service people tried to tell me initially. When they realised that I had done my research though, they admitted that picture delay was an INHERENT problem with all plasma and LCD displays. It just becomes a question of whether the consumer notices.

Edited by Coral
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A low response time for LCDs causes ghosting, something only noticeable with fast movements and panning. The effect is similar to waving your hand in front of a bright light in a dark room. Initially, LCDs were designed specifically for the business market, up until they lowered the response time down to about 16ms (the average LCD TV used to be around 30ms). But the ghosting was still apparent. They then started releasing models with better response times, going down to 12ms, to 8ms and now 4ms, however the models with a 4ms response time only measures from gray-gray, instead of the traditional black-white-black. Anything below 8ms should have negligable ghosting, and anything below 6ms should have none at all (as seen with the naked eye)

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Firstly Glenncol I condemn you for pandering to the lowest common denominator on these forums. By laughing you are encouraging moronic posting. Deal with it.

As for the above, no it is NOT due to me adpating to larger screen as my logic re: audio sync PROVES. If I can hook THE SAME dvd player up using the SAME cables to a CRT and then a plasma and notice considerable delay in the plasma and not the CRT, then it IS the plasma. The only thing I am changing is the display panel, so it is a simple process of elimination. Your above quote although I know you were just offering an alternate opinion (which I welcome) but this is exactly what most of the service people tried to tell me initially. When they realised that I had done my research though, they admitted that picture delay was an INHERENT problem with all plasma and LCD displays. It just becomes a question of whether the consumer notices.

Ever thought that you can't fairly compare a small crt to a large plasma?

You seem like a pretty informed fellow. Don't you think that on a small crt you're not noticing small issues that may easily come to bear on a large screen? A 19" crt monitor appears liquid smooth because yours eyes are better able to resolve a small screen.

I had an 80cm sony for 1 1/2 years and i noticed the same equipment was not as crisp and smooth going from a 15 year old 59cm sony.

It's all got to do with the size and possibly, the way movie etc as shot - ie 24 frames etc. Although now i'm way beyond my knowledge.

Don't disregard other posts because you think you've done the research and everyone else knows nothing. Give us a thought out reply.

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A low response time for LCDs causes ghosting, something only noticeable with fast movements and panning. The effect is similar to waving your hand in front of a bright light in a dark room. Initially, LCDs were designed specifically for the business market, up until they lowered the response time down to about 16ms (the average LCD TV used to be around 30ms). But the ghosting was still apparent. They then started releasing models with better response times, going down to 12ms, to 8ms and now 4ms, however the models with a 4ms response time only measures from gray-gray, instead of the traditional black-white-black. Anything below 8ms should have negligable ghosting, and anything below 6ms should have none at all (as seen with the naked eye)

I think there are two issues here, firstly the delay in video processing electronics and secondly the response time of the actual panel (ie to signal changes). What you're refering to above is the later.

The problem 'ridemyrocket' has is with the delay in the video processing (vs audio processing). Certainly this is an issue with plasma and LCD displays - and is why many HT amps provide a compensating audio delay circuit.

BTW, a gray-gray response time of 4ms would indicate a very fast panel indeed. My understanding is that the G-G reponse time is typically slower than black-white-black time because of the larger voltages involved with the later (from a pc-world article someone posted in another thread). However the lack of industry standard for G-G response means that different manufacturers specs can't be compared....ie they're all measuring different things. In this case, comparing black-white-black timings might be 'safer'.

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Plasma panels are known to have latency problems, which CAN be corrected via your AVR. It sucks if you dont have an AVR, but quite frankly I dont care as I have one. Now Im a picky bastard and I have never experienced this flaw as bad as you make it out to be. You mentioned a few posts back "ridemyrocket" that you were informed in these things, may ask what your professional attributes are that allows you to be THE authority on plasma and latency? I wouldve thought you knew the correct terminology, not to mention the fact that hardcore gamers and A/V enthusiasts around the world have no concerns like the ones you raise.

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If you know anything about cmoputer games you will know that ANY amount of time delay is the difference between life and death

....come on tamarasue, this is serious stuff. I sure my 9 year old son would agree whole heartedly with ridemyrocket's comments.

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Just thought I'd share my experiences on here to everyone out there who has an Xbox, PS2 or GameCube. You CANNOT use plasma screens for video gaming!!!

Why? Because all plasmas regardless of brand or price have an inherent picture delay of anywhere between 30-140ms. Doesn't sound like much and most people probably wouldn't even notice it, but if you are a musician or a video gamer you WILL notice.

The issue of lip synch probs has been well documented in the past and it seems the only solution is to buy an amplifier than can introduce an audio delay.

Unfortunately though, buying a new amp won't change the fact that at your next Halo 2 LAN everyone who plays on your plasma will be 30-140 ms behind the opposition. If you know anything about cmoputer games you will know that ANY amount of time delay is the difference between life and death. My plasma is 70ms delayed in processing its picture and it is the difference between me winning every game I play or losing it. I am dead serious. The effect is really this profound. The effect of the delay also means that not only will your response times be out, but also your accuracy since the screen does not react as soon as you move your thumbstick or press the button on the controller.

So heed this warning all gamers - don't buy plasma or LCD if you intend to play video games because these display devices just don't cut it. Stick to CRT's until the technology has a chance to catch up. I have spoken to several TV manufacter's (e.g. LG Samsung, Fujitsu, Pioneer, Panasonic)  service departments and they all say that plasmas have this problem.

I found this out the hard way - learn from my mistakes

Ecuse me for asking if you did your research why did you buy a plasma in the first place if there that bad for gaming,it would be good to do your research before not after
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You beat me to it Tobes.

All digital displays have lag due to a combination of panel response time and video processing delay.

It’s normally not noticeable when watching video, however when you interact with the system used a mouse or game controller, the delay would be FARE more noticeable to an experienced gamer who is used to virtually instant response.

So it is not just Plasma panels that have delay, but all digital TV’s.

DLP displays are well known for noticeable delay due to processing, even when watching video.

PC monitors will be much faster, as they do not do video processing, so you only see the delay of the panel its self which usually results in smearing or ghosting.

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WOW, what a crock - while im not the biggest fan of Plasmas, there is defiantely no reason (lag my @rse) to not game on them! As for LCD's, sure they require a fast pixel response time but I can play any PS2 game i like on my HS50 with no problems at all!

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You beat me to it Tobes.

All digital displays have lag due to a combination of panel response time and video processing delay.

It’s normally not noticeable when watching video, however when you interact with the system used a mouse or game controller, the delay would be FARE more noticeable to an experienced gamer who is used to virtually instant response.

So it is not just Plasma panels that have delay, but all digital TV’s.

DLP displays are well known for noticeable delay due to processing, even when watching video.

PC monitors will be much faster, as they do not do video processing, so you only see the delay of the panel its self which usually results in smearing or ghosting.

Ah... now I understand better...I was wondering what would be different from LCD PC monitors to LCD monitor with a tuner being the LCD TV.

Thanks Owen.

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You beat me to it Tobes.

All digital displays have lag due to a combination of panel response time and video processing delay.

It’s normally not noticeable when watching video, however when you interact with the system used a mouse or game controller, the delay would be FARE more noticeable to an experienced gamer who is used to virtually instant response.

So it is not just Plasma panels that have delay, but all digital TV’s.

DLP displays are well known for noticeable delay due to processing, even when watching video.

PC monitors will be much faster, as they do not do video processing, so you only see the delay of the panel its self which usually results in smearing or ghosting.

So a connection to a plasma through a 'pc approved' dvi slot will (?) not be processed by the panel. In this case the plasma just acts as a normal monitor and i assume the plasma video processing does not get involved at all.

So in the case of the xbox, if it is connecte via RBG component (not vga) then the panel may be processing the image which is leading to what his names problem.

So if the above is right and people use the pc dvi for pc gaming or even the vga input for the xbox, there are no issues and the images are not processed. So that kills a part of his arguement. Being that plasmas are no good for gaming.

Does that sound right?

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So a connection to a plasma through a 'pc approved' dvi slot will (?) not be processed by the panel. In this case the plasma just acts as a normal monitor and i assume the plasma video processing does not get involved at all.

So in the case of the xbox, if it is connecte via RBG component (not vga) then the panel may be processing the image  which is leading to what his names problem.

So if the above is right and people use the pc dvi for pc gaming or even the vga input for the xbox, there are no issues and the images are not processed. So that kills a part of his arguement. Being that plasmas are no good for gaming.

Does that sound right?

Now you got me really confused and also got me thinking...hmm... you have a point there too....So my confusion with now Digital LCD PC monitor with DVI and Digital LCD TV with DVI connection goes where???????????

Our Fuji has all the connections you mentioned right?... so which connection do we plugg this game machine into make it a DUMB PC monitor like??? Also if we turn off all our digital enhancements in our Fuji does it make response time quicker? This is getting too hard for me..now even thinking of getting the iScan VP30 getting me more confused....

then again..it does not become my problem as yet.. it may in few years when my 5 years old start shooting online opponents (god knows where)...

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Now you got me really confused and also got me thinking...hmm... you have a point there too....So my confusion with now Digital LCD PC monitor with DVI and Digital LCD TV with DVI connection goes where???????????

Our Fuji has all the connections you mentioned right?... so which connection do we plugg this game machine into make it a DUMB PC monitor like??? Also if we turn off all our digital enhancements in our Fuji does it make response time quicker? This is getting too hard for me..now even thinking of getting the iScan VP30 getting me more confused....

then again..it does not become my problem as yet.. it may in few years when my 5 years old start shooting online opponents (god knows where)...

Hey, in afew years you may not have the fuji :blink: . But don't tell the wife yet :P .

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