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Higher Resolution is coming.

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Ah... I am new here. Anyway.

I have seen this new beasty 71" plasma. Right next to LG's 71" LCoS. (I am a retail monkey and I get to go to trade shows.) Anyway... I was told on the night that in Australia the plasma retails for about $150 grand (at least at the time of the trade night). The LCoS is, as previously stated, $9999. The plasma picture, although easily far, far better than the LCoS, is not 15 times better.

I dunno, I get to stare at plasmas and LCDs and rearpros all day, and I personally feel resolution is over-rated. Go check out the Samsung PS42D5S (SD panel). It rules. Right out of the box the colour balance is perfect, and it has this soft look to it that reminds me of the Sony KVHR36M31 (rest in peace lol) Nevermind the "low" resolution. Realistically speaking, most of the things you watch are less than the native res of a "HD" panel. Why would you spend 5 grand on a "HD" plasma, when you can spend 3 grand now on a nice korean SD panel, and wait until a)broadcasting improves and b)prices drop.

I used to have the LG 42" SD next to the Sony PFMX1, both running LG 4100p's. 99 percent of people couldn't tell the difference unless they stood 2 metres away, and if your room is that small you don't need a plasma. (Those that could were reading the price tickets and figured 3 k = SD.)

Sorry to go on, but I noticed a lot of people on these boards concerned mainly with resolution. There are other considerations, like colour balance/depth, contrast and image scaling.

(Ah.. of course if you're going to come spend 10 grand on the 45" Sharp Aquos I am not going to tell you not to.. unless you ask my opinion.. haha..)

Addendum due to Sony posts:

Sony doesn't make plasma. And they have been employing models to tell people to buy Grand Wega over plasma panels. Said models play on peoples fears that plasmas only last a short while.. nevermind the mere 8000 hour life on the 500 dollar globe.

Plasma= high cost of manufacture

RPTV= lower cost of manufacture.

When you see Sony's 3 LCD chip and realise that to make the tv bigger they just change the focus, and then whack another 2 grand on the price, it makes you think.. hmmm... profit margin is whats driving these technologies... and making them bag the quality stuff.

I have yet to see anything that can scale a small image (ie, TV) to 100 cm's plus as comfortably or as naturally as a plasma panel.

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Yep, those septics do go on with a lot of sh*t

But damn it, I hope the Sony is as good as I expect it to be, or I am screwed.

The Sony looks like it should be the best of bread, and if it not bloody great, I will have to stay with my CRT RPTV for another year.

50” is just too small, and 60” plus at 768p just does not cut it. F****ck. :blink:

I feel for you too.. I was originally wanting to get 42" then it seemed so small everytime I went into the shops to look around so I went with 50" fearing it would be too big for my living room. Having owned it for 3 weeks now.. I thing I can handle 71" or 80" easily... My 50" Fuji just seem so ordinary (only the size.. not the PQ)....hehe

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Ah... I am new here. Anyway.

I have seen this new beasty 71" plasma. Right next to LG's 71" LCoS.  (I am a retail monkey and I get to go to trade shows.) Anyway... I was told on the night that in Australia the plasma retails for about $150 grand (at least at the time of the trade night). The LCoS is, as previously stated, $9999. The plasma picture, although easily far, far better than the LCoS, is not 15 times better.

I dunno, I get to stare at plasmas and LCDs and rearpros all day,  and I personally feel resolution is over-rated. Go check out the Samsung PS42D5S (SD panel). It rules. Right out of the box the colour balance is perfect, and it has this soft look to it that reminds me of the Sony KVHR36M31 (rest in peace lol) Nevermind the "low" resolution. Realistically speaking, most of the things you watch are less than the native res of a "HD" panel.  Why would you spend 5 grand on a "HD" plasma, when you can spend 3 grand now on a nice korean SD panel, and wait until a)broadcasting improves and b)prices drop.

I used to have the LG 42" SD next to the Sony PFMX1, both running LG 4100p's. 99 percent of  people couldn't  tell the difference unless they stood 2 metres away, and if your room is that small you don't need a plasma. (Those that could were reading the price tickets and figured 3 k = SD.)

Sorry to go on, but I noticed a lot of people on these boards concerned mainly with resolution. There are other considerations, like colour balance/depth, contrast and image scaling. 

(Ah.. of course if you're going to come spend 10 grand on the 45" Sharp Aquos I am not going to tell you not to.. unless you ask my opinion.. haha..)

Addendum due to Sony posts:

Sony doesn't make plasma. And they have been employing models to tell people to buy Grand Wega over plasma panels. Said models play on peoples fears that plasmas only last a short while.. nevermind the mere 8000 hour life on the 500 dollar globe.

Plasma= high cost of manufacture

RPTV= lower cost of manufacture.

When you see Sony's 3 LCD chip and realise that to make the tv bigger they just change the focus, and then whack another 2 grand on the price, it makes you think.. hmmm... profit margin is whats driving these technologies... and making them bag the quality stuff.

I have yet to see anything that can scale a small image (ie, TV) to 100 cm's plus as comfortably or as naturally as a plasma panel.

Welcome to the forum.

Ooohhhh...Ouch.. be very careful about mentioning LG, Samsung here.. most likely you will get bombarded...

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Especially SXRD from Sony which sounded like a dream come true

Well the thing that may let the Sony down is it's de-interlacer/scaler Sony's culture is to do their own thing rejecting Silicon Image DVDO,Realta with HQV (Hollywood Quality Video) or the latest DCDi by Faroudja FLI-2310 Decoding Engine all because they don't want to pay other manufactures for use of their designs

cheers laurie

ps my Sony 10HT pj is fantastic for one reason only it's hooked up to a Denon dvd player with the Silicon Image chip when I switch it into interlace mode and allow the pj to do the scaleing it's like watching Foxtel

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Apparently the SXRD range uses the same scaler technology used in the Qualia 006, which is reportedly very good, but time will tell.

It’s unlikely you will see significantly better scaleing technology in a domestic display of sain price.

DVD’s are a no brainer. A PC does a great job of upscaling DVD’s to 1080.

Deinterlacing true interlaced 1080i is more of a challenge, so it is yet to be seen how well that is handled, but it should be better then any current 720p or 768p display, as most of them only use unscaled 540p.

If you want to use a mega dollar Realta chip stand alone scaler, feel free. :blink:

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Ah... I am new here. Anyway.

I have seen this new beasty 71" plasma. Right next to LG's 71" LCoS.  (I am a retail monkey and I get to go to trade shows.) Anyway... I was told on the night that in Australia the plasma retails for about $150 grand (at least at the time of the trade night). The LCoS is, as previously stated, $9999. The plasma picture, although easily far, far better than the LCoS, is not 15 times better.

I dunno, I get to stare at plasmas and LCDs and rearpros all day,  and I personally feel resolution is over-rated. Go check out the Samsung PS42D5S (SD panel). It rules. Right out of the box the colour balance is perfect, and it has this soft look to it that reminds me of the Sony KVHR36M31 (rest in peace lol) Nevermind the "low" resolution. Realistically speaking, most of the things you watch are less than the native res of a "HD" panel.  Why would you spend 5 grand on a "HD" plasma, when you can spend 3 grand now on a nice korean SD panel, and wait until a)broadcasting improves and b)prices drop.

I used to have the LG 42" SD next to the Sony PFMX1, both running LG 4100p's. 99 percent of  people couldn't  tell the difference unless they stood 2 metres away, and if your room is that small you don't need a plasma. (Those that could were reading the price tickets and figured 3 k = SD.)

Sorry to go on, but I noticed a lot of people on these boards concerned mainly with resolution. There are other considerations, like colour balance/depth, contrast and image scaling. 

(Ah.. of course if you're going to come spend 10 grand on the 45" Sharp Aquos I am not going to tell you not to.. unless you ask my opinion.. haha..)

Addendum due to Sony posts:

Sony doesn't make plasma. And they have been employing models to tell people to buy Grand Wega over plasma panels. Said models play on peoples fears that plasmas only last a short while.. nevermind the mere 8000 hour life on the 500 dollar globe.

Plasma= high cost of manufacture

RPTV= lower cost of manufacture.

When you see Sony's 3 LCD chip and realise that to make the tv bigger they just change the focus, and then whack another 2 grand on the price, it makes you think.. hmmm... profit margin is whats driving these technologies... and making them bag the quality stuff.

I have yet to see anything that can scale a small image (ie, TV) to 100 cm's plus as comfortably or as naturally as a plasma panel.

well good to know the the higher res plasma beastie exists but at $150k a pop phew !

interesting notes on the cost of manufacture, margins and comparisons you've made

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I dunno, I get to stare at plasmas and LCDs and rearpros all day,  and I personally feel resolution is over-rated

In some cases you are right resolution is on part that makes a great panel and the other is scaling.

Its all very well to have a panel that will handle 1366 x 768 and or 1920 x 1080p but if the scaling and de-interalcing is up the **** the resolution ability means jack

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For the one or two people on this side of the Pacific who are interested in 1080p RPTV’s, here is some info on the new Sony SXRD range.

http://www.crutchfield.com/S-cqCm0FUbNxc/c...50&I=158SR60XBR

Bulky and ugly isn’t it. :P

The pixel structure is so fine on these things that it cant be seen, even at less then half a meter.

And theres a 50" as well.

http://www.crutchfield.com/S-cqCm0FUbNxc/c...50&I=158SR50XBR

And remember these are RR pre release prices, not street prices after 6 months.

Here is a picture of one on a stand, god its ugly.

http://img358.imageshack.us/img358/2795/h1...omtstand6ux.jpg

Still want a Fuji 50” Plasma  :blink:

Hi Owen,

Thanks for the links, is there any word if these will be available in Oz? The Sony Grand Wega's RPTV we have here are the model III's. The model V's (A10, A20) are now available in the USA. I've heard that the A10's and A20's may be avilable here sometime around November, but no word on the SXRD range.

cheers,

Stephen

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Gday Stephenm,

Unfortunately I have no idea of Sony’s timetable for an Australian release.

Since US release is scheduled for Sep-Oct, it would be reasonable to expect that we should see them here early next year.

Sony cant afford to be too slow, or they will miss the market, as LG will have their 71 1080p LCoS and Samsung their 1080p DLP models available.

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Yes, there is a lot more to a good picture then resolution. In fact resolution should be about last on the list of importance for most people.

For the screen size-viewing distance ratios used by most people the more significant issues are:

Scaling and deinterlacing (critical)

Posterisation (colour banding or clay face) often incorrectly refereed to as Solarisation.

Dither noise and rainbows (affecting DLP’s only)

Black levels and shadow detail.

Colour accuracy and rendition.

SDE (Screen Door Effect) related to Fill Factor (gap between pixel’s) and Resolution (number of pixels)

SSE (Silk Screen Effect) a shimmering grainy artefact seen on bright areas of the screen.

However, for large screens viewed up close, the ball game changes.

Fill factor, SDE and Resolution become VERY important and are interrelated.

The different display technologies vary significantly in this area.

CRT RPTV’s have no pixel’s and therefore effectively perfect 100% Fill Factor, zero SDE and low to high Resolution (depending on model and setup).

1080p SXRD and LCoS RPTV’s have very high Fill Factor (better then 90%), almost zero SDE and EXTREAMLY high Resolution.

1080p DLP RPTV’s have high Fill Factor, very low SDE and EXTREAMLY high Resolution.

720p DLP RPTV’s have good to very good Fill Factor, low SDE and medium Resolution.

HD Plasma’s in general have medium Fill Factor, medium SDE and medium Resolution

720p LCD RPTV’s have poor Fill Factor, high SDE and medium Resolution.

SD Plasma’s have poor Fill Factor, high SDE, and low Resolution.

To attain cinema like 30 degree plus left to right viewing angles requires a large screen to be viewed up close.

For example;

50” (127cm) screen viewed from 2 meters = 30.9 degrees

60” (152cm) screen viewed from 2.4 meters = 30.9 degrees

70” (177cm) screen viewed from 2.8 meters = 30.8 degrees

I am one of the crazy people how wants a 30 degree viewing angle (or as close as I can practically get) for a “cinema experience”.

I currently view a 57” (145cm) 1080i screen from 2.8 meters for a 25.4 degree viewing angle, and that is probably as much as is practical with DVD source, but with good 1080i HD, 30 degrees or more would definitely be viable on a top quality 1080 screen.

Unfortunately all current digital displays are unacceptable for one reason or another, with visible pixel’s, SDE, too small, poor blacks and shadow detail or have other unacceptable digital artefacts. That has left CRT RPTV as the only option for me.

The upcoming 1080p RPTV’s are the first digital displays that can cut it for a 30 degree viewing angle.

Very high Fill Factor and very low SDE, combined with very high resolution are required for a truly high quality viewing experience under these conditions.

Viewing a box of dots with aliasing or stepping on diagonal lines or curves is no fun at all. :blink:

For people who never intend to view their display up that close, the above issues are FARE less important, and other factors dominate the picture quality equation.

1920x1080p displays much under 60” are pretty much a waste of time, as very few people will ever view them up close enough to see the extra resolution.

I look forward in anticipation to the new 1080p RPTV’s.

There is no question that SDE, Fill Factor and Resolution are all more then good enough for my requirements.

The real question is whether performance is up to the mark in other areas.

I will have to wait and see on that score, I have my fingers crossed. :P

Regards to all,

Owen

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If you want to use a mega dollar Realta chip stand alone scaler, feel free.

Well if Denon can put one in a dvd player [5910] at a SRP US$3,500 I would not call that mega dollar!!

cheers laurie

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$3,500 USD is a lot of money for a DVD player dude.

Looks like they are charging about $3,000 USD for the privilege of having the Realta scaler.

You now how it is Laurie, if it cost a few hundred dollars to include the Realta technology, it will add 10 times that to the retail price, and make the product completely uncompetitive.

Hell, the 60” SXRD is only $5000USD

I cant see how many people would be prepared to pay an extra $3,000 on a $5,000USD product.

Cop Ya Later.

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Hi Guys,

This is a little off topic, but while on the subject of big screens, I'm contemplating replacing my 32" CRT with something bigger, I sit 4.5m from the screen. Would a 50" HD screen be too small from that distance or should I be looking more at 60" (not that I can afford something that big re expensive).

cheers,

Stephen

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Even a 60” screen is SMALL at 4.5 meters.

Even Foxtel looks near as good as DVD at 4 meters on my 57” screen.

HD would be a complete waste of time.

I think you need to look at front projectors dude.

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Yes retailmonkey very good points, if I could summarise there is much more to viewing pleasure than resolution which is completly and utterly true. People quoting stat's is really hard to quantify - particularly in terms of the display technologies good and bad points which all add to an end result which is more (or less!) than the sum of its parts.

Guys a bit of crystal ball gazing here. In terms of scaling consider this. We will be getting in the future true 1080i source material being passed through pure digital connections to 1080i/p displays. Now de-interlacing this sort of material is just a matter of a simple weave (or bob) to achieve very good results. The point I am making is that our players will purely become transports for the new movies. Crystal ball gazing yes but as the new source becomes availalable we might see a shift from very technically oriented players to some stuff that is a little more simple, like the old 576i players of old which were fine for 576i telly's as they are not trying to scale to the display resolution because they provide a source that is in the displays resolution.

(Thank god for that we'll be able to look a sane HTPC spec's once again instead of relying on them to do all sorts of scaling!)

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Even a 60” screen is SMALL at 4.5 meters.

Even Foxtel looks near as good as DVD at 4 meters on my 57” screen.

HD would be a complete waste of time.

I think you need to look at front projectors dude.

Hi Owen,

I was afraid you where going to say that :blink:

I actually have a projector (Infocus 5700) and the 102" screen lowers down in front of the TV (this is why our seating position is 4.5m back). We don't usually watch TV on the projector mainly DVD's. The TV is for general viewing. As you say 50" is probably too small, but 60" is starting to compete with the projector's screen size. If there was something in the 55" size, this would probably be a reasonable compromise.

cheers,

Stephen

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Progressive sourced 1080i video from film or 1080 p24sf camera is simple to weave deinterlace to perfect 1080p. However true interlace captured field based 1080i from a standard 1080i camera cannot be easily deinterlaced, and requires very advanced deinterlacing systems to prevent significant vertical resolution loss.

Most current digital displays use simple and dirty BOB deinterlacing which only provides 540 vertical resolution from a 1080i source. This is then upscaled to 720p or 768p etc for display.

Little wonder that owners of 720p or 768p displays think that 720p video is better then 1080i video.

They are only getting 1280x540 or 1364x540 resolution out of 1080.

On a 720p or 768p display this is not very noticeable since you never knew what you where missing , but on a 1080 display it would be a disaster.

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Hi Owen,

I was afraid you where going to say that  :blink:

I actually have a projector (Infocus 5700) and the 102" screen lowers down in front of the TV (this is why our seating position is 4.5m back). We don't usually watch TV on the projector mainly DVD's. The TV is for general viewing. As you say 50" is probably too small, but 60" is starting to compete with the projector's screen size. If there was something in the 55" size, this would probably be a reasonable compromise.

cheers,

Stephen

Whatever you get it’s gona be MUCH better the a 32”.:P

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Progressive sourced 1080i video from film or 1080 p24sf camera is simple to weave deinterlace to perfect 1080p. However true interlace captured field based 1080i from a standard 1080i camera cannot be easily deinterlaced, and requires very advanced deinterlacing systems to prevent significant vertical resolution loss.

Most current digital displays use simple and dirty BOB deinterlacing which only provides 540 vertical resolution from a 1080i source. This is then upscaled to 720p or 768p etc for display.

On a 720p or 768p display this is not very noticeable, but on a 1080 display it would be a disaster.

(bolded) is how the new HD movies will be stored on disk though won't it? Or is true interlace capture field material something of the future that we should be wary of?

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Hollywood movies are no problem as they are film based (Progressive).

However all the Australian 1080i HD, and a large amount or US based HD shot on video cameras for TV is field based true interlaced 1080i, and that’s the problem stuff.

This is because the fields are not capture at the same instant in time and therefore cant be converted to frames if there is movement in the shot.

It works great on a 1080i display (CRT), but is a big problem for digital progressive displays.

Quite a few TV networks in the US are now using 1080 p24sf (Segmented Frame)video cameras because they are progressive, and the 24fps can be easily mixed with film source.

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Hollywood movies are no problem as they are film based (Progressive).

However all the Australian 1080i HD, and a large amount or US based HD shot on video cameras for TV is field based true interlaced 1080i, and that’s the problem stuff.

It works great on a 1080i display (CRT), but is a big problem for digital progressive displays.

Quite a few TV networks in the US are now using 1080 p24fs video cameras because they progressive, and the 24fps can be easily mixed with film source.

Ok not so simple as I had thought! :blink:

Thanks mate will have to keep my thoughts to myself in future, anyway I did say crystal ball !

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if it cost a few hundred dollars to include the Realta technology, it will add 10 times that to the retail price

True Owen but as with past technology hopefully it will filter down to the lower models once R&D cost are paid!

cheers laurie

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How much do you really think a 42inch HD plasma really costs to make?

If they are selling them for $700 in Asia and still making money it makes you wonder what a bit of electrical circuitry and a panel is really worth.

lasty-where have you seen plasma HD screens for $700 in asia ?

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lasty may not have seen 42 plasma's in asia but I have . At Inshon we were offered plasma's as percs to buy Industrial electronics. We used to get cameras and the like but there are so many plasma panels(sd) sitting in sheds they are almost giving them away. You can get a lot cheaper than us700 if you buy a container load .On the street no haggling(bummer)700. O.K they arent fuji's but I like lcd more than any fuji so hey it will do for now.

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Sorry for the ignorance - what technology do LCoS RPTVs use and in what ways are plasma displays superior? Feel free to point me to another thread.

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