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Owen

PAL 50Hz Powerstrip settings

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The 60Hz timming supplied in Powerstrip should not be used for PAL DVD playback as PAL 50Hz 25 frame per second video cannot display properlly on a 60Hz screen without judder.

Here are my Powerstrip settings for 1776x1000 resolution at 1080i 50Hz timming.

This should result in minimal overscan on a 1080i display.

If you need to adjust size just tick the "Lock scan frquencies" box and use the sizing arrows to adjust.

These settings result in about 2% overscan on my Hitachi.

Zero overscan is impractical as you will see the raged edge of the video.

1776x1000=1776,535,56,241,1000,56,5,72,74037,2328

Just copy and past into Powerstrip.

Hope this helps.

Owen

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While we're on the topic of 50hz PowerStrip settings, here are the custom timings I use for progressive PAL and NTSC output for DVDs (native 4x3 and 16x9 ratios listed)

720x480=720,47,72,137,480,17,3,26,30803,278

720x576=720,40,96,112,576,23,4,27,30492,272

848x480=848,44,96,148,480,15,2,28,35785,272

1024x576=1024,84,104,228,576,17,3,22,44496,272

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This is so TRUE.........................................

I believe some inherent the issues with Samsung were just this issue.

I have found lowering to 50Hz gives one more tolerance in multiple resolutions increments impossible in 60Hz timings. The 60Hz BTW relates to VERTICAL NOT horizontal as there is more eeway in the horizontal frequency then the vertical. Let's face it, the firmware software in any HD Australian device is going to optimised to 50Hz vertical NOT 60Hz Vertical.

Regards

DA

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ATTENTION.

The 1776x1000i setting I posted above is wrong.

The last parameter should be 280 NOT 2328

So the correct setting is:

1776x1000=1776,535,56,241,1000,56,5,72,74037,280

Sorry about that.

Owen

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Digitaladvisor,

If you are talking about a Samsung digital, display why would you use anything other then the native resolution of the display.

It is wise to always feed a digital display at its native resolution to avoid scaling by the display.

This even applies to many 1080i HD CRT displays. Many of them scale all input to 1080i/540p.

Regards,

Owen

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My 50Hz pstrip settings are:

Select 1280*720 (HDCP Derived) from custom resolutions.

Turn down vertical refresh to 50Hz. (if using digital connection there are issues with this res on the Z2)

or

Select 1024 * 576 (50Hz) from custom resolutions.

(This one is judder free Digital connection for the Z2)

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ATTENTION.

The 1776x1000i setting I posted above is wrong.

The last parameter should be 280 NOT 2328

So the correct setting is:

1776x1000=1776,535,56,241,1000,56,5,72,74037,280

Sorry about that.

Owen

I was not talking about the native panel. I was talking about the Hz rating to suit Australian DVD/Hd timings suited for it. As per what Nobby mentioned.

However, I have another aspect to mention regarding panel pixel matching and it is a hotly debated subject on the AVS forum.

For example: Which looks better SPARTIAL 1080i timings or 720p as in going native progressive to exact match on the Samsung LCD RPTV panels?

I'll let you know my findings when I get the Sammy. I think it a subjective issue and preference here. I am aware some displays will perform very differently.

Regards

DA

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Which graphics cards operate down at 50Hz? When I look at specs for different cards, the lowest they spec is 60Hz.

I'm looking for a good card which will not only output 50Hz HD resolutions into my Sony KVHR36 (in RGB/HV), but will also drive my normal computer monitor (XGA) at the same time, with a different signal; ie the desktop.

Craig.

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Which graphics cards operate down at 50Hz?  When I look at specs for different cards, the lowest they spec is 60Hz.

I'm looking for a good card which will not only output 50Hz HD resolutions into my Sony KVHR36 (in RGB/HV), but will also drive my normal computer monitor (XGA) at the same time, with a different signal; ie the desktop.

Craig.

All the Radeon Series seem to respond well to Rage3D and PowerStrip in 1080i @ 50Hz timings.

Reason: See the TV tuner Card topic and goto the link on its history.

ALL NVidias (EVERY SINGLE one of them) are out of SPEC with DVI-D for HD.

Radeon cards are also compliant to HDCP on DVI-D.

Regards

DA

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ATTENTION.

The 1776x1000i setting I posted above is wrong.

The last parameter should be 280 NOT 2328

So the correct setting is:

1776x1000=1776,535,56,241,1000,56,5,72,74037,280

Sorry about that.

Owen

I just thought I'd give these custom timings a shot, not that I was particularly unhappy with my current rendition of 1776x1000i on my Toshiba, which is actually based straight off the Powerstrip timings. Yet again the I found the Toshiba does not agree well with a 'custom' PAL timing as with other's I've tried. I went from very a clear display to one with unacceptable flicker and a loss of definition, which was immediately apparent on my Windows desktop display.

As I think I said once before FWIW, timings are very specific for different PAL displays. My set does not like any of the suggest progressive display timings based on 960p amongst others for example. My advice is to try as many of the variants as possible until you build a core of the essential modes you need to cover resolutions from 480p - 1080i. I have about 5 decent resolutions that work well, however I would use 1776i and 1080i the most for viewing.

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ATTENTION.

The 1776x1000i setting I posted above is wrong.

The last parameter should be 280 NOT 2328

So the correct setting is:

1776x1000=1776,535,56,241,1000,56,5,72,74037,280

Sorry about that.

Owen

What is your HTPC setup to get into the Hitachi??? Are you using a component adaptor/transcoder from your Video card??

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Dodrsus,

I am using a Cresendo Systems VGA to Component transcoder connected to a Radeon 9600Pro.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread....threadid=308446

I use a dedicated HTPC consisting of a P4 2.8C @ 3.5Gig on a 1Gig FSB fitted to an ASUS P4P800E Deluxe main board with 1Gig of Corsair Dual channel DDR500 (PC4000) RAM.

Storage consists of three 120Gig Seagate drives.

I also have a Leadtek Winfast TV2000XP Expert TV card for video capture and for use with Descaler so that I can connect my Foxtel Sat decoder via Svideo connection for real time up scaling to 1080i and for better aspect ratio control then provided by the Hitachi It works very nicely. Foxtel running through the PC looks much better then directly connected to the TV.

For DVD playback I use Zoom Player with the Elecard video decoder and freeware AC3 audio decoder and Reclock.

I also use FFDShow with Denoise3d and Resize (Lanczos) to my desktop resolution of 1776x1000. I’m one of the pioneers of FFDShow resizing.

No stand alone DVD player can match that combination. Picture quality is very impressive and I have never seen any DVD player - display combination in a retailer that could compete with what I am now using.

Owen

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Dodrsus,

I am using a Cresendo Systems  VGA to Component transcoder connected to a Radeon 9600Pro.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread....threadid=308446

I use a dedicated HTPC consisting of a P4 2.8C @ 3.5Gig on a 1Gig FSB fitted to an ASUS P4P800E Deluxe main board with 1Gig of Corsair Dual channel DDR500 (PC4000) RAM.

Storage consists of three 120Gig Seagate drives.

I also have a Leadtek Winfast TV2000 Deluxe TV card for video capture and for use with Descaler so that I can connect my Foxtel Sat decoder via Svideo connection for real time up scaling to 1080i and for better aspect ratio control then provided by the Hitachi  It works very nicely. Foxtel running through the PC looks much better then directly connected to the TV.

For DVD playback I use Zoom Player with the Elecard video decoder and freeware AC3 audio decoder and Reclock.

I also use FFDShow with Denoise3d and Resize (Lanczos) to my desktop resolution of 1776x1000. I’m one of the pioneers of FFDShow resizing.

No stand alone DVD player can match that combination. Picture quality is very impressive and I have never seen any DVD player - display combination in a retailer that could compete with what I am now using.

Owen

Hi Owen

The Component quality I've tested on the Samsung was very disappointing. The quality was there as sort of and so so but nothing to write home about.

It was slightly under the quality of VGA input. The same resolution and timings were used in this test. To be fair I used generic 720p @ 60Hz and did not persevere with anymore as I could not see the point. The cables used were of high quality highly shielded component cabling.

I've confirmed one thing, stick a ATI component dongle on a given Radeon card VGA and it auto boots in component and works with Catalyst 3.4 or higher. I plugged it in after turning off the computer and up it came on the component inputs (The component inputs on the Samsung are AUTO scan from 480i through 1080i @ 60Hz.)

You don't list a DVB-T card. The quality of a direct DVB-T card runs rings any set top box I'm seen. Now we've got Dvico I can also capture all on one card. The software can also encode captures directly in MPEG 1, 2 and DivX or you can switch to capture window live like an extra live channel.

BTW: Results of the DVICO when compared to a VisionPlus card are startling. Pans in HD are free of micro stutter which was not bad but noticable and I've picked this up even on HD STB's. HD/SD are all consistent in either analogue or Digital AC3 sound. The cards capture also works happily with dScaler as well. (The software was developed in the US for HD over there 19 months ago and the results in first market entry into Australia show somewhat more maturity then the trail and error of earlier entrants with DVB-t cards and there software. The DVICO remote I've also successfully reprogrammed to control Zommplayer even screen resizing etc, media mode etc etc.

Regards

DA

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Thanks for the info again Owen.

DA,

Which given Radeon cards can accept the dongle, and where can the dongle be bought from etc???

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Hi Owen

The Component quality I've tested on the Samsung was very disappointing. The quality was there as sort of and so so but nothing to write home about.

It was slightly under the quality of VGA input. The same resolution and timings were used in this test. To be fair I used generic 720p @ 60Hz and did not persevere with anymore as I could not see the point. The cables used were of high quality highly shielded component cabling.

I've confirmed one thing, stick a ATI component dongle on a given Radeon card VGA and it auto boots in component and works with Catalyst 3.4 or higher. I plugged it in after turning off the computer and up it came on the component inputs (The component inputs on the Samsung are AUTO scan from 480i through 1080i @ 60Hz.)

You don't list a DVB-T card. The quality of a direct DVB-T card runs rings any set top box I'm seen. Now we've got Dvico I can also capture all on one card. The software can also encode captures directly in MPEG 1, 2 and DivX or you can switch to capture window live like an extra live channel.

BTW: Results of the DVICO when compared to a VisionPlus card are startling. Pans in HD are free of micro stutter which was not bad but noticable and I've picked this up even on HD STB's. HD/SD are all consistent in either analogue or Digital AC3 sound. The cards capture also works happily with dScaler as well. (The software was developed in the US for HD over there 19 months ago and the results in first market entry into Australia show somewhat more maturity then the trail and error of earlier entrants with DVB-t cards and there software. The DVICO remote I've also successfully reprogrammed to control Zommplayer even screen resizing etc, media mode etc etc. 

Regards

DA

Greetings DA,

Firstly, your Samsung is a digital display. DVI was designed for digital displays so it is no surprise that DVI works best for you.

Analogue displays need to convert digital input back to analogue, just as digital diplays must convert analogue to digital if VGA or component input is used. For analogue displays it is then a question of which digital to analogue converter to use, the one in the TV or the one on your video card. The quality of the D to A conversion and analogue chain are what matters for an analogue display.

Almost no analogue displays in Australia are fitted with DVI inputs.

Even in the US where analogue HD TV’s do come with DVI inputs, most people still use VGA or Component.

As for the Radeon component dongle, I am not aware of anyone being able to get one to work at 50Hz. The Radeon drivers do not support 50Hz and ATI say so.

Running PAL 50Hz source on a 60Hz display will inevitably cause stutter as 25 frames per second cannot be displayed correctly at 30 FPS. So if you can find a way to get a Radeon dongle to work at 50 Hz there are MANY people who would love to know how.

It may well be possible but I am yet to here about any success.

Hopefully the next generation of video cards from Nvidia or ATI will have proper component output support.

I currently do not have a HD set top box or card. I have been waiting for some feed back on the new Fusion card. I am not in any hurry as there is almost nothing on free to air TV that interests me, so I will get very little use out of it.

It will be interesting to see how good the DVICO Fusion will be for analogue input and capture. I have tried many different TV cards over the years and found the Leadtek TV2000XP Expert to be the best quality by fare. It would be nice if the Fusion could co exist with the TV2000XP as I doubt that it is as good.

Analogue input performance is very important to me as I feed my Sat receiver into my PC for Descaler use and capture direct to Mpeg4.

Foxtel-Austar picture quality is crap but if it where not for pay TV I would not watch TV at all. Free to air programming SUCKS.

I was thinking of using a Sat receiver card in my PC but I am unsure whether they will work with the new Foxtel-Austar encryption system and cards.

Have you any info on Sat card compatability?

Regards,

Owen

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Hi Owen

Greetings as well!

You said..

Firstly, your Samsung is a digital display. DVI was designed for digital displays so it is no surprise that DVI works best for you.

I say...

No. I am VGA input or rather in home theatre terms RGBHV.

You said...

As for the Radeon component dongle, I am not aware of anyone being able to get one to work at 50Hz. The Radeon drivers do not support 50Hz and ATI say so. Running PAL 50Hz source on a 60Hz display will inevitably cause stutter as 25 frames per second cannot be displayed correctly at 30 FPS.

I say...

Yes you are correct here concerning 50Hz as opposed to 60Hz and the dongle only working in 60Hz. What I was trying to say here was that componet was considerly lesser quality then VGA on identical timed inputs via VGA.

You said...

I have been waiting for some feed back on the new Fusion card. I am not in any hurry as there is almost nothing on free to air TV that interests me, so I will get very little use out of it.

I say...

You cannot beat the quality we've getting in Brisbane Metro. The DVICO DVB-T is the most stable card ever.

You said...

It will be interesting to see how good the DVICO Fusion will be for analogue input and capture. I have tried many different TV cards over the years and found the Leadtek TV2000XP Expert to be the best quality by fare. It would be nice if the Fusion could co exist with the TV2000XP as I doubt that it is as good.

Analogue input performance is very important to me as I feed my Sat receiver into my PC for Descaler use and capture direct to Mpeg4.

I say...

The DIVCO card uses a recent chip just like the TV2000XP. Besides dscaler works remarkably well with it. I cannot vouch for your TV2000XP.

Allow to correct some wrong assumptions made about capture cards....

Blackadds (VisionPlus Forum) on capture...........

I still consider that the analogue capture is not great. Ive tried capturing vhs tapes to DVD format (highest quality) via the composite and svideo jacks and so far have been very disappointed with the image quality, much grainier and "blurier" and much more saturated colours than captures which I have done previously using a winfast tv expert card

Then Blackadds tries a better software solution...........

....solved the issue for me.......I used Ulead DVD MovieStudio 2.5SE (which came with my winfast card) to do some captures last night, and the quality was definitely much better, both in the preview and then the captured files - so there is clearly not a hardware issue. Even the composte input looks good. I recorded a two hour video tape last night using the best quality dvd settings in MovieStudio, and the resulting file looks great and audio is fully in sync throughout, so this is definitely a workable solution.

So my conclusion with software capture based cards like these .. the secret is the software encoding and adjustments not really 100% based in the capture hardware card.

Regards

DA

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Thanks for the info again Owen.

DA,

Which given Radeon cards can accept the dongle, and where can the dongle be bought from etc???

Most Radeons with VGA, in fact it is embedded in the chipset.

I used it with a Sapphire Radeon 9100 via VGa to component. And it worked. Catalyst drivers 3.4 or higher are required.

Get it from here.

http://www.svideo.com/hdtvr8500.html

It took two weeks to get here from US via post.

Regards

DA

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Sorry DA, I misread your post about VGA not DVI. I was guilty of assumption. :blink:

With a digital display, why would you want to use VGA and not DVI?

You are doing an unnecessary D to A and A to D conversion.

Does not the Samy have DVI?

There is more to a capture card then just the chip used. Circuit implementation plays an important roll.

I have used different cards with the same chip that perform differently with the same drivers and software.

For example I had a MSI TV@nywhere with the same new Conexant CX25xx chip that is used on the TV2000XP Expert and the TV2000 has noticeably better quality Svideo capture using the same capture application and codecs so software has nothing to do with this comparison.

I don’t use the software that is supplied with the cards.

Owen

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Sorry DA, I misread your post about VGA not DVI. I was guilty of assumption. :blink:

With a digital display, why would you want to use VGA and not DVI?

You are doing an unnecessary D to A and A to D conversion.

Does not the Samy have DVI?

There is more to a capture card then just the chip used. Circuit implementation plays an important roll.

I have used different cards with the same chip that perform differently with the same drivers and software.

For example I had a MSI TV@nywhere with the same new Conexant CX25xx chip that is used on the TV2000XP Expert and the TV2000 has noticeably better quality Svideo capture using the same capture application and codecs so software has nothing to do with this comparison.

I don’t use the software that is supplied with the cards.

Owen

Hi Owen

Yes I've tested it and results were shocking and bad scaling. Just data grade garbage PC locked resolutions.

The DVI on the Samsung thus far talks back to the PC and limits resolutions. For more understanding of this goto to PowerStrip Forum and read what Wang says of the crippling in firmware that can take place.

I am yet to try DVI and seeing whether I can force it to accept alternative resolutions overiding data back with really dumb and stupid resolutions that have no correlation whatsoever to the physical panel display of LCDs resolution.

On the LG, DVI-D seems to present no problem but on Samsung's it has been issue so far. Watch this space. I am in the process in contacting Samsung for firmware updates to loose the control of DVI via HTPC technologies.

On the issue of capture I am yet to satisfy myself of its quality on the DVICO. Yes I have tried a few cards myself. I offloaded a few anlogue card with capture to my sons. I think personnaly after comapring dgitial TV even SD to analogue you will never want to even use an analogue tuner.

The Samsung also has two inbuilt analogue tuners. A complete and utter waste of time. The quality compared to digital I am getting is like night and day in quality jump.

Still what started this post is this: VGA is definitely superior to component inputs.

The other reason I am not pressing the DVI at this stage is that I am in two minds here: Do I just want to use the HD upconverting DVI DVD Player supplied by Samsung (redemption offer) or use it for a HTPC. We'll see.

You know some die hard home theatre buffs must be bit tad embarassed here. They have been rubbishing RPTV for yonks now. Looks the scene is about to change.

Regards

DA

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Sorry to here of your Samsung DVI problems DA, but you can take hart in the fact that you are not alone. AVS forum is full of DVI tails of wow.

It seems that DVI is a dead set pain but it works well for digital displays, when it works.

I hope DVI gets sorted out by the time we get some good digital RPTV’s like the second generation 1920x1080p DLP and LCOS sets in 2005-6.

Until then I’m happy to stay with good old analogue CRT RPTV. :blink:

Regards,

Owen

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DA,

The other week I posted a dummy driver that is intended to force the PC to output only at the resolutions you wanted with a DVI interface.. It's basically a monitor driver for windows..

I posted it at the end of the thread you started just after you got your new display..

I'll see if I can drag up the URL and post back in an edit.

-Auldar

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Here's the info.. .Copy the text into a .inf file and tell windows to add it as a monitor:

You never responded to my post in that thread, but maybe you already tried this..

Also, I'm not 100% certain if this was to address DVI or VGA, but I *think* it was DVI.

QUOTE (Hari @ Nov 25 2003, 07:04 PM)

[use the Driver below at your own risk.]

Ok here is the Driver for people with the 61" Samsung who want to output 1280x720 Resolution to the Samsung through their PC. (Windows XP)

Copy and paste the code below paste it into Notepad then go to File save as change the save as type to All Files, Lastly name the Driver Samsung.inf make sure you do not save it as a .txt as it will not work.

QUOTE

"CUT HERE"

[Version]

signature="$CHICAGO$"

Class=Monitor

ClassGUID={4d36e96e-e325-11ce-bfc1-08002be10318}

Provider=%MFG%

[Manufacturer]

%MFG%=MonMfg

[MonMfg]

%MODEL%=Mon.Install

[Mon.Install]

DelReg=DEL_CURRENT_REG

AddReg=Mon.AddReg,RES,DPMS

[Mon.AddReg]

HKR,%MODE%,Mode1,,%RANGE%

[DEL_CURRENT_REG]

HKR,MODES

HKR,,MaxResolution

HKR,,DPMS

[RES]

HKR,,MaxResolution,,%MAXRES%

[DPMS]

HKR,,DPMS,,0

[strings]

MFG="Samsung"

MODEL="Samsung 61 LCD RPTV"

MAXRES="1280,720"

MODE="MODES\1280,720"

RANGE="30.0-70.0,50.0-75.0,+,+"

"END CUT"

Now to install the driver:

1. Go to My Computer right mouse click then select Properties.

2. Now you should be in the System properties window select the Hardware Tab then click on the Device Manager Button.

3. Once in Device Manager select the Monitors and right click on the Default Monitor and select Update Driver.

4. The Hardware update Wizard will start.

5. Select Install from a List or specific location then press the Next Button.

6. Now select Don't Search. I will choose the driver to install.

7. Now you need to click on the Have Disk button and a window should come up asking where to copy the files from.

8. Select browse choose the Samsung.inf file and press OK.

9. Samsung 61 LCD RPTV should show up select it and press Next.

10. You might get a window saying that the Driver has not passed windows logo testing just press Continue Anyway Button.

11. The Driver should be installed now.

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Hello to Auldar & Hari (who sent a private PM alerting me to the Samsung drive inf file for Windows.)

Firstly thanks Auldar, I was going to get around to eventually testing this for DVI foricng of the resolution for a HTPC.

I'll see how it goes for DVI connection.

If it works I'll look into modding it adding 576p, 720p and 1080i timings as well.

Regards

DA

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The following information concerns receiving SD, EHD and HD via a HTPC fitted with a DVB-T tuner card (DVICO).

I have success with DVI at 1280 * 720 @ 50Hz and 60Hz.

It appears the inf driver does indeed "force" the DVI to act as it should from alternative timings provided by PowerStrip.

I will see if I can create an INF with specific timings for 576p, 720p and 1080i.

Personnaly I can see very little difference between DVI and VGA. The DVI seems less forgiving on Standard definition broadcasts.

Very very minor difference in quality.

Regards

DA

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I'm not 100% certain if this was to address DVI or VGA, but I *think* it was DVI.

I made that driver for VGA but it may or may not work with DVI.

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