HD capable DVD Player

[digitaladvisor]

HI Michael

I was at retail/wholesale warehouse and they had dongles for DVI-I socket to VGA convertors. They were $10.00.

The adaptor connected to DVI-A part of the DVI-I effectively converting to VGA socket (simply mini 15pin RGBHV in home theatre terms)

You then need a VGA pug in to either VGA in socket on projector/HD display with a mini-socket or a VGA to RGBHV separated cables.

When speaking of DVI on this player - if it has the DVI-A (analog) pins as well the DVI-D segment pins you should always refer to this interface as being DVI-I consisting of DVI-A and the DVI-D segments fully pinned.

Most PC video cards have both pin outs segments now and are always referred to as DVI-I - this saves confusion as it impliments on both segements both the analog (RGBHV) and the Digital segement (DVI-D)

Regards

DA

[indulis]

OzHTfan

One thing I did notice was an effect that perterbed me similar to one I've seen on on my HTPC system playing DVDs. At 1080i there seems to be a problem with panning shots, like a shudder caused by dropping frames. the was very evident in the first scene of Two Towers, when the camera flys into the mountain.

This sounds like what I'd expect if the player was converting 50Hz DVDs to 60Hz output.

I'll buy one of these units this week, if I can get someone to confirm that PAL DVDs are not being resampled to 60Hz. It should be pretty easy- those of you who have them hooked up can just get the TVs/projector's on-screen display to tell you what is coming into the TV/projector when you load a PAL DVD.

[OzHTfan]

OzHTfan

One thing I did notice was an effect that perterbed me similar to one I've seen on on my HTPC system playing DVDs. At 1080i there seems to be a problem with panning shots, like a shudder caused by dropping frames. the was very evident in the first scene of Two Towers, when the camera flys into the mountain.

Can you confirm this is still a problem with this player since updating the firmware?

Thankyou OzHTfan for the honest review of this unit, generally people don't like to talk about warts on products they have paid for untill after the the cost of buying the product has long been forgotten. I think most people try to convince themselves they haven't wasted their money.

Spearmint

Michael, thanks for the wrap. I'm a pretty fussy person when it comes to my audio and video, so when I try a new product it has to make the grade or it's out. I'd also like to test this player on the Sony KVHR 86cm via the RGBHV input to see how it fares with that displays 1920x1440 HD resolution and see how it handles 720p.

spearmint - One of the reasons I didn't mention the 'shudder' was that it wasn't present via the DVI-RGB output, I did have a very quick look at 30 seconds of the mountain flyby in the Two Towers, it seemed to be ok. I will aim to check this again more thoroughly when I next use the projector, probably not before the weekend again though. There is a reference to the shudder or judder on the Momitsu forum and it was specifically using the component output with 1080i and 720p, the poster was going to try the new (current) firmware. I had also read about a lip-sync problem on the same forum (mostly on DD2.0 sound), this was apparently fixed with the firmware update. While watching 'Confidence' on Sat. there were a couple instances where I perceived a minor issue with it. However, there was absolutely no sign of it when I watched it again yesterday.

[PaulInMelbourne]

Sorry for being thick, but isn't 576p the best option for PAL DVDs?  At any other format the picture must be rescaled.  While rescaling artifacts at 1080i are probably minimal, you're sacrificing progressive for interlaced.  Am I missing something?

Hey Paul,

Are you the bloke who yelled out that the Emperor was wearing no clothes??

Thanks for the note of sanity.

If I was gonna "scale up" 576i or 576p, what would likely have the better electronics, a $300 DVD player or a $10,000 projector, ummmmm.

Hi John,

After I posted that I read a few comments on other forums where people have bought these "virtual HD" DVD players and they reckon the picture is more detailed and "film like" in 1080i. And of course some people have tried it and disagree. It doesn't make sense to me. Could simply be that their DVD players or displays are calibrated for 1080i and not 480p. Either way I am undecided.

Having said that, I think everyone's attraction to this player is that it does DVI out. And since DVD players with DVI out that can do 576p are rare, PAL DVDs will always need to be rescaled by the DVD player. You only want it to be rescaled once, so you're best off scaling directly to the projector's native resolution within the DVD player (or if using a CRT, the highest supported resolution). Thats my uneducated guess anyway.

[waratahbay]

Here is something that might interest people

http://www.neodigits.com/shtmls/divxdvd/

All for under $300.00

Got my player yesterday from NeuNeo (neo digits) in China. Spent the day setting it up (fast) and then testing (enjoyably longer). Thought I’d share my road test, but please bear in mind that I’m a technical novice. I am not going to repeat the specs on their website but give my user view.

I connected the player with component leads to an Inday RGB-4X high bandwidth junction box and then into the HD progressive inputs on my Sony 86cm KVEH36M31 HDTV. This teev will accept 50 or 60 Hz. PQ comparison was made with a Pioneer S737 (which does 480p on NTSC but not PAL/p, has 3:2 pull down etc etc) connected via ordinary component, hence I can switch the Sony’s DRC on to improve the PQ. DRC is, of course, disabled on HD inputs. I always got a very good PQ anyway out of the Pioneer and the DRC Progressive setting.

Cost: AU$320 including shipping with UPS. I bought it on ebay.com.au and paid via telegraphic transfer (at bank branch).

Delivery time: 5 working days from despatch.

Packing materials: light original box, Styrofoam ends around player, would have liked a stronger box.

Build quality: ok, mid-quality I think, no rattles or casing warps. Disk tray was slightly too high in tray housing and initially scraped the housing lightly at start of opening and end of closing. I pressed down on the tray slightly and that seems to have settled it (hmmm). Tray can be easily wobbled when open so wouldn’t suggest much pressure on it at any time. DVD seat is not fully revealed when tray is open (about ¼ inch still inside housing), so you have to be extra careful putting in disks. Badged as “United” in upper left of player.

Supplied with player: rudimentary connector cords, brief but straightforward manual, remote and batteries.

Extras: anamorphic 16:9 “Terminator 3” DVD (my pick from 4 choices), nice transfer.

Not supplied but needed: as the power plug was China-only you will need an international adaptor; fortunately I had one.

Macrovision: turned off at factory, so it will output all player-available HD upconversions to a HD progressive connection. No DVI or RGBHVconnection.

Setup: straightforward, easy, fast.

Machine outputs 480i/60, 480p/60, 576i/50, 576p/50, 720p/60 and 1080i/60. You can switch between these on the fly using the remote but only in one direction. According to my Sony the player also tried to input 1080i/50 and even though I got the audio track ok I just got a black TV screen. Will be interesting to see if this is enabled with future software updates.

Remote: small with lots of buttons, but clearly labelled. Has to be held directly in line with centre of player to work, little tolerance for sitting off to the side. Sometimes a bit slow for the machine to respond.

DVDs used as comparison test:

NTSC – “Saving Private Ryan” (beach landing and at night in church), “Gladiator” (initial battle scene and at night encampment), “American Beauty” (first scenes at office). PAL – “2001: A Space Odyssey” (opening credits - sun moon & earth in alignment, the first 20 mins (great film and great DVD transfer!), “Notting Hill” (opening sequence with Huge Grant walking through the market and large crane/panning shot), “Thomas Crown Affair [remake]” (first 30 mins), “The Talented Mr Ripley” (opening dockyards scene and first beach meeting). Throughout I kept replaying scenes with the different output definitions.

PQ (1) – only using the United player: 480p on the NTSC disks was very good; in all cases 576p produced a slight motion jerkiness every now and then and was my least preferred setting; 720p was film like and smooth, but a bit soft and not sharp enough for my taste (although I wouldn’t complain if it’s all I had!); 1080i in all cases was a sharp, clear, picture, only occasionally with interlace artefacts (varying with the disk). 576p (except for occasional motion jerkiness) equalled Channel 70 and 720p PQ were superior to SD OTA; 1080i was superior again but still fell short of the 9 HD loop. Results varied slightly depending upon the DVD: best performed was “2001” and worst performed “Thomas Crown”. I suspect the PQ goes to the outhouse if you’re not connecting via HD progressive inputs. But what a DVI-D connection must produce!!!

PQ (2) – comparison test: in all cases the United produced a superior picture at 576p, 720p and 1080i settings than the Pioneer connected via ordinary component. In a progressive 480p shoot-out via HD inputs, the Pioneer was better but lost out once the United was switched up to 1080i.

Other capabilities: Haven’t tested them all out. I did, though, burn a CD-RW with mp3s and they played just fine. The screen on the TV throws to a master selection page for choosing between video/music/pictures etc and then goes down through a couple of sub-pages.

Customer service response: timely answer to all my emails, kept me updated on money and shipping, informative about technical questions; such a change!

Summary: no DVI-D or RGBHV connections, which is a shame, but a nice little unit that does quite a good job given the price. A Faroudja DCDi chip would be nice as would 3:2 pulldown, but hey, at this price … Will report back if it falters or needs servicing.

[Graham B]

I owned a Momitsu V880 briefly while I was living in the US. But I ended up returning it because I felt that the 720P/1080i output was a little soft (in comparison with the 480P output of my Panasonic RP91). But it was nice to not see scan lines on my projector.

One important thing that you should know is that the component (YUV) output is way softer than the RGBHV output. This has been confirmed by other Momitsu owners in the US. Although the manual does not mention it, there is actually analog RGB outputs on the DVI connector.

I don't remember my Momitsu being able to do 576P. Perhaps there has been a firmware update to add this resolution.

And I actually thought that the conversion from PAL to 720P60 / 1080i60 wasn't all that bad. But obviously leaving it as 50Hz would be better.

Graham

[OzHTfan]

One important thing that you should know is that the component (YUV) output is way softer than the RGBHV output. This has been confirmed by other Momitsu owners in the US. Although the manual does not mention it, there is actually analog RGB outputs on the DVI connector.

And I actually thought that the conversion from PAL to 720P60 / 1080i60 wasn't all that bad. But obviously leaving it as 50Hz would be better.

Graham

My experience with the Momitsu so far is that using either DVI or RGBHV is the way to go. I will be doing a fresh run through with the AVIA calibration disc tomorrow just to get everything precise.

[APP_Master]

Any users here able to confirm the the unit ouputs 1080i 50Hz (PAL) thru component outputs?

Because if it only does 1080i 60Hz (NTSC) its really not much good for 'most' Aussie HDTV ready/capable TVs - including mine.

- not to mention that PAL DVDs probably scale up/convert better without extra processing to NTSC 60Hz...! (that last opinion is truly a wild guess only )

If anyone can elaborate, please do...

[Wayne7497]

Michael

Too Put the issue to bed once and for all.. About the 1080i@50hz PAL .. Do you have or can you get a hold of the firmware for the v880 and I will reflash mine and test the player on My 86 PANA 100 and my BENQ 8700 and Let everyone Know... Whether it works or Not..

Im sure Manowa wouldnt have a problem emailing you the firmware..Should be that big a file..

My email address is tmcsystems@iprimus.com.au

Cheers

Wayne

[dvduser]

Xander over at www.avstuff.net has just posted these links to the latest V880 firmware.

If your v880 is not the latest firmware we suggest you update the firmware.

You can download the latest firmware: http://www.manowa.com.tw/dvdplayer880FWDL.html

And please refer to this link before you update v880: http://www.manowa.com.tw/dvdplayer880FW.html

[Wayne7497]

Neither of those firmwares have the 1080i@50hz Ive tried both of them they have been out for a while...

[dugby]

Michael

Too Put the issue to bed once and for all.. About the 1080i@50hz PAL .. Do you have or can you get a hold of the firmware for the v880 and I will reflash mine and test the player  on My 86 PANA 100 and my BENQ 8700 and Let everyone Know... Whether it works or Not..

Im sure Manowa wouldnt have a problem emailing you the firmware..Should be that big a file..

My email address is tmcsystems@iprimus.com.au

Cheers

Wayne

Wayne7497 and APPMAster, I am so glad you folks are taking the "PAL to 1080i/50Hz" issue to hand. It really does need to be fixed before the Momitsu 880 can be considered as a serious DVD player for Australia.

There have been reports on the avsforum from UK folks with the V880, who use PAL having major dis-satisfaction with not being able to display PAL correctly. For PAL dvds, the correct display should be 1080i/50Hz.

But the Momitsu currently takes PAL dvd's and converts them 1080i/60Hz and there seems to be tangible stuttering in the video frames. Trying to show a video stream of 50 frames/sec at 60hz causes the 880 to cyclically have to show extra frames to completed the 60Hz cycle.

Wayne, you appear to have the Momitsu in Perth, can you comment on the 1080i/60Hz display of PAL dvd's ? Is it worth putting up with and 'hoping' Momitsu redo the V880 firmare to fix this ?...As I am keen to also buy the momitsu.

[RodN]

I think this does need to be sorted out. Judder is an issue and would indicate that the player is outputting a 60hz or closer frequency and skipping frames.

If you want to test for frequency-fps on your display - I.e find out if your display frequency is matching the output of your player check this very interesting AVS link.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread....210#post2843210

It's a bit techy but theres a great tool in there that you can use (if you have a HTPC) to test for judder.

WARNING: Don't do this if you're happy with your picture already oK???

AND: This will only show the problem - it won't fix it - you have been warned!

Cheers.

[Wayne7497]

Michael

Too Put the issue to bed once and for all.. About the 1080i@50hz PAL .. Do you have or can you get a hold of the firmware for the v880 and I will reflash mine and test the player  on My 86 PANA 100 and my BENQ 8700 and Let everyone Know... Whether it works or Not..

Im sure Manowa wouldnt have a problem emailing you the firmware..Should be that big a file..

My email address is tmcsystems@iprimus.com.au

Cheers

Wayne

Wayne7497 and APPMAster, I am so glad you folks are taking the "PAL to 1080i/50Hz" issue to hand. It really does need to be fixed before the Momitsu 880 can be considered as a serious DVD player for Australia.

There have been reports on the avsforum from UK folks with the V880, who use PAL having major dis-satisfaction with not being able to display PAL correctly. For PAL dvds, the correct display should be 1080i/50Hz.

But the Momitsu currently takes PAL dvd's and converts them 1080i/60Hz and there seems to be tangible stuttering in the video frames. Trying to show a video stream of 50 frames/sec at 60hz causes the 880 to cyclically have to show extra frames to completed the 60Hz cycle.

Wayne, you appear to have the Momitsu in Perth, can you comment on the 1080i/60Hz display of PAL dvd's ? Is it worth putting up with and 'hoping' Momitsu redo the V880 firmare to fix this ?...As I am keen to also buy the momitsu.

1080i@60hz doesnt work at all on my 86 Pana 100A... Works on the Benq Projector but does suffer bad Picture quality....PAL DVD's that is...

So my advice to ANYONE wanting this... WAIT for conformation on the 1080i@50hz for PAL DVD's....

Its pretty simple its only a mod to the Firmware...

And if the V880 doesnt have the 50hz... STAY AWAY in droves youll be dissapoined DVI and ALL....

My expereinced 2c worth...

Ive asked Michael for the firmware to see what its like...To date NO reply..

[Whatgift]

I'm having several problems with my NeuNeo player - one in every two discs loaded does not play properly (sound fast, no picture), and needs to be ejected and closed again to work (sometimes this process needs to be done several times!).

The player sometimes just stops - the picture freezes, and NO button on the player or the remote will work. My only option is to switch off the power button on the player, then turn it on again.

What's going on? Is this a chip problem, or a fault of the DVD-ROM itself? I did update the firmware for 576p, but I'm not sure that's the problem.

I'm not looking forward to paying shipping costs to China and back to get it replaced or repaired that's for sure!

Can anyone help?

[alastair]

My experience with the NeuNeo player

I ordered mine off ebay for US$195 shipped. Was shipped the same day and arrived within about 5 days.

Good communication and prompt response to emails from the time I ordered it and continuing after purchase. Very happy with that.

Everything is as described by waratahbay with a few differences:

- My player was not macrovision-disabled from the factory. However there is a firmware hack to disable this which I will be trying out soon. For non-macrovision discs (like the region 2 Matrix Revolutions which came with my player) 1080i output is clear and crisp. My one and only region 4 PAL disc played just fine in 1080i. All the other discs I have are region 1 and so far I have found the player tells me to switch to 480p mode to play them.

- Excellent quality output as noted by waratahbay. Althought I didn't have another player to compare to, for the price I'm very very happy. We test drove it last Friday with the new region 1 Finding Nemo release which was just amazing.

- The major thing that concerns me at the moment are some audio sync issues which I have seen on a couple of discs, intermittently. I am currently connected via monster optical cable (bought in a moment of weakness!) to an Onkyo 601 receiver. Will fall back to coax digital if the problems persist.

- I have experienced one freeze as noticed by whatgift. Also some initial problems with discs loading but that seemed to go away on day 2 and ever since. Still another thing to watch.

- Playback of DivX and MP3 CDRs is _excellent_. A great feature for me, and even if I only keep the player for this, I'll be happy.

- Setup was difficult for me because I put it into a mode that my TV (Palsonic 76cm HDTV as discussed in other thread) that it couldn't understand, and spent some time trying to navigate the setup menus blind. Then I noticed the 'v-mode' button on the remote and all was well

- Agree the remote is rather crappy. Also the IR sensor is on the right edge of the player where it can be obstructed.

In summary I have a few concerns about this player but for the most part it seems to be doing the right thing, and for the money it's a bargain.

In my opinion it is players like this that should be delivering a wakeup call to the big names of the world (Pioneers, Sony, Panasonic). These guys can deliver the extra polish that the NeuNeo player is lacking but with the features people really want.

[michaelf]

OK everyone, I am back. Well I didn't really go anywhere, I have just been really busy and have been trying to finalise things with these new players and to try and find out once and for all the answers to everyones questions, as I have been keeping a close eye on whats happening on this thread.

Anyhow I will start from the begining. As per OzHTFan's review of the Momitsu, there is known shudder etc, using the component outputs at 720p and 1080i, and then using the DVI-RGBHV or DVI-DVI it disappears.

It seems the reason for this is that via component output, the Momitsu only outputs at 60Hz, for all DVDs including PAL. The reason it doesn't occur via DVI is because of the new addition in the current firmware of custom display settings which allows the selection of a 50Hz output.

So there it is, the answer to everyone's questions and concerns. Yes the Momitsu upscans all DVDs to 60Hz via component video. Therefore using this video output you probably will get shuddering video and 3:2 pulldown issues with PAL DVDs. However if you use the DVI output (DVI-RGBHV or DVI-DVI) which is the reccomended connection, then you won't have a problem, and yes all the players will be shipped with the latest firmware which includes the custom setting menu where 50Hz output can be selected.

Now I can hear all those people sighing that cannot connect via DVI or DVI-RGBHV such as the Pana and Samsung HD CRT owners etc, but you can stop your sighing and still be ready for buying because Manowa are in the process of creating a new firmware for us.

The new firmware will be created specifically for us in Australia, but would obviously help European users also. The new fimware will allow all HD outputs, 480p, 720p and 1080i to be selected in a PAL mode (50Hz). They are also attempting to include a 576p @ 50Hz output mode, but they are still not sure if this can be done yet.

The new firmware will take a few weeks for development and testing, and we will be working closely with the manufacturer during the testing process to ensure that it all works correctly to suit our needs here in Australia. This also means that the new firmware will probably not finish in time for our current order that we are waiting on. Therefore for all customers that purchase a player from us without the new firmware, if required we can provide you the firmware as soon as it arrives with instructions on how to complete the upgrade. We can also do the upgrade for you if you return the player to us, but there will be a cost involved.

Anyhow, it seems that finally the question on everyone's lips has been answered and it seems that by the end of it all, we will all get what we want which is great.

For those who are going to connect via DVI-RGBHV, you will not need to worry about the firmware update as it should have no effect. Also, we will have stock of the DVI-RGBHV in our store for you to purchase with the player if you require.

I would also just like to add my opinion to the last few posts in this topic about the cheap NeuNeo player that has appeared. We also looked at this player and its capabilities and reliability etc, and I can tell you that it is no match for the Momitsu. Basically you get what you pay for. 'Whatgift' mentioned a problem loading discs. This is in actual fact a common problem with this player. They use a cheap DVD-ROM for the DVD Drive. Many users that have bought this player have gone through the trouble of pulling it apart and modifying another DVD-Rom drive to fit into the player's case so as they can get it to work correctly. I would assume that most people do not what to even try to do this. And returning it back to China would be such a mess. There is also the common lip sync issue that alastair mentions, the zoning and macrovision capabilities, not to mention, most importantly, no DVI or RGBHV outputs. So I would reccomend staying away from the cheap stuff. The Momistu seems to be the best in this group of players.

To finish off, just reminding interested people to email me your registered interest in the player so as I can keep a record, and will inform everyone of all the details as soon as they arrive and are on display (hopefully by the end of this month).

[Groover !]

However if you use the DVI output (DVI-RGBHV or DVI-DVI) which is the reccomended connection, then you won't have a problem

michaelf

My Sony 86cm has RGBHV connections so it should work okay ?

Angelo

[dugby]

However if you use the DVI output (DVI-RGBHV or DVI-DVI) which is the reccomended connection, then you won't have a problem

michaelf

My Sony 86cm has RGBHV connections so it should work okay ?

Angelo

Angelo, you'll need a DVI to VGA dongle (quite common now...I have 100's at work)usually $10 and then a VGA cable that splits into the 5x RCA's for separate Red, Green, Blue, Horizontal Synch and Vertical Synch (these are rare...maybe Jaycar or RS-Comp might have it).

Or you could get a RankArena

[michaelf]

Angelo,

Yes it should work OK with that interface. If the Sony's RGBHV connection is a standard 15pin VGA connection then all you will need is the DVI-VGA convertor (we will have these for sale also) and a VGA cable to your TV (we will also have these for sale). I would assume that this would be the interface setup for your TV. If the RGBHV connector is the component BNC type with seperate connectors for each R-G-B-H-V then you will need a VGA-RGBHV-BNC cable, which we will also attempt to get stock of for those that require it.

Thanks

[IanSav]

Hi Michael,

If the RGBHV connector is the component BNC type with seperate connectors for each R-G-B-H-V then you will need a VGA-RGBHV-BNC cable, which we will also attempt to get stock of for those that require it.

The Sony KV-HR36M31 uses 5 RCA connectors for R-G-B-H-V and not BNC connecteors.

I'll be interested to see how much these leads are when you get them made up. There are so many Sony sets being sold out there that perhaps you can get some special Sony leads made up that go from DVI on the player straight to the RCA sockets on the Sony.

Any idea when you are going to send out your E-Mail announcements for the player?

Suggestion: When you contact us about the availability of the player could you include a mini pricelist of all the accessories you are putting together for it.

Regards,

Ian.

[OzHTfan]

Hi Michael,

If the RGBHV connector is the component BNC type with seperate connectors for each R-G-B-H-V then you will need a VGA-RGBHV-BNC cable, which we will also attempt to get stock of for those that require it.

The Sony KV-HR36M31 uses 5 RCA connectors for R-G-B-H-V and not BNC connecteors.

I'll be interested to see how much these leads are when you get them made up. There are so many Sony sets being sold out there that perhaps you can get some special Sony leads made up that go from DVI on the player straight to the RCA sockets on the Sony.

Any idea when you are going to send out your E-Mail announcements for the player?

Suggestion: When you contact us about the availability of the player could you include a mini pricelist of all the accessories you are putting together for it.

Regards,

Ian.

I use the BNC-RCA connectors that can be found at electronics stores like Jaycar. They do the trick quite nicely and leave the option available if I ever need connect directly to BNC sockets.

[DukeBoy]

The RGBHV cables can be found in alot of stores. Just do a search online in Australia and you'll find plently of sites which sell them. They usually seem to go for about $70. Have found a few sites which sell them with RCA connections instead of BNC, but lost the URLS. BNC adapters too are available anywhere, all of $2 each. If any of you with a KVHR get to hook up a DVD through HD2 please post your findings, coz i'm tossing up whether to go down that road myself, or just stick with component.

[IanSav]

Hi Guys,

Sorry for being a bit too subtle. What I was hinting at was getting a single cable made up that went direct from the player straight into the Sony. The fewer adapters the lesser the cost and the lesser the possibility of signal degradation.

(I have a collection of BNC to RCA converters on hand just in case. )

Regards,

Ian.

[OzHTfan]

Hi Guys,

Sorry for being a bit too subtle.  What I was hinting at was getting a single cable made up that went direct from the player straight into the Sony.  The fewer adapters the lesser the cost and the lesser the possibility of signal degradation.

(I have a collection of BNC to RCA converters on hand just in case.  )

Regards,

Ian.

I wouldn't get too worried about signal degradation in this application, I've seen broadcast engineers use different types of BNC adapters including the RCA type without giving it a second thought. I was looking at it from the practical side, I could get engineers at my work to make me up a dedicated RGBHV RCA cable for my projector but I really couldn't be bothered for the sake of no gain.