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Palsonic 76WSHD

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Hi nocode1,

I got it from the local Retravision (Perth - Leederville) with the Panasonic QTR-2140 HD STB for $2500 including delivery. My receipt had the Palsonic $1750 and the STB $750.

3 of the big name stores over here, Rick Hart, Retravision and Hardley Normal all had in on sale for $1999. I went in with $$$ and got a good deal. Hope this helps.

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Got my gear on order but couldn't get a price under $2750 for the package - probably would've got lower but I want the buy now pay later option !!!

Still - less than $3000 for HDTV, I wouldn't have dreamed about it six months ago........hope all goes well !!!!

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Got mine in Perth (Retravision Osborne Park) for $2750 (Pana box-TV)

Still happy with it. Better than MANY sets I have seen, including a fine pitch.

By the way, lines have gone completely today...

Good luck

Niko, is it possible for you to connect your computer to the unit and using say, a checkerboard pattern, determine if there's any geometry problems on your unit, 'cause it's possible me and Paul acquired faulty units from the same batch and usually the units fine. i also bought my unit from Harvey Norman but in Canberra.

Sorry narkfestmojo, I missed that

I can try that. I just have to find a test pattern.

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I am using this TV connected to my HTPC via the sec DVI/VGA output.

The Palsonic is running at an undocumented resolution of 1280 x 768 @ 60hz with no problems. The graphics adapter is a Radeon 9500pro.

For HDTV I am using a Visionplus VP-DTV card and it looks fabulous on this set - none of the problems you guys seem to be having. Maybe it is the set top boxes causing these problems. I have a Conia DVD player with a VGA output and it sometimes causes a diagonal wavy pattern for no apparent reason, the same disc on the HTPC doesn't exhibit this problem.

Anyway, this TV rocks connected to a HTPC :P

I also get something that looks like macroblocking if panning with lots of detail in the background (world cup rugby would show this up on the seats when panning). I have assumed that this is related to the STB since DVD picture is fine. Something to do with the MPEG conversion in the STB?

This is attributed to signal strength - play with the antenna 90% plus is ideal.

I also do not have any bright bands runing vertically or horizontally anywhere on the screen. Overall the image is consistent. However I have noticed that in some instances dark areas of a picture (shadows etc) will loose detail if something very bright appears on some other part of the screen. This seem slightly more noticable in progressive scan - I have cleared it up some what after calibrating brightness/contrast tho). I still notice it but I'm the only one that can it seems.

You can turn this option off, can't remember what it is called at the moment :blink:

Cheers.

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Gents,

Perhaps I can answer some of your concerns regarding these lines and other issues you are experiencing with the Palsonic set. I have been using many different combinations of settings and connections over the past year or so and have finally settled on the following:

1) Rank Arena 76 cm HD set ( identical to the Palsonic )

2) DGTEC DH2000a set top box set to HD1 via VGA input

3) Philips Q50 Progressive scan DVD player via component HD input

I have found that while watching the set top box, if the DVD player is on I see the fine horizontal scrolling lines that you mention. I have found this to be caused by cross talk between the 2 HD inputs. If I switch the DVD player off the interference goes away. The same does not seem to be true if watching DVD while the set top box is on as the scanning frequency is lower than 1080i on progressive DVD and is not as obvious.

If I set the STB to HD2 the fine lines do seem to get better because the scanning freq is roughly the same as the DVD in this setting. However the HD2 setting as previously mentioned has its own set of problems.

When set to HD1 ( 1080i ) Both the DGTEC 2000 and Panasonic QTR STB's ( almost identical internal electronics) have poor internal scaling engines for converting SD programming to 1080i and as such suffer from a condition know as chroma upsampling error. This manifests itself as horizontal color streaks on highly saturated chrominance, in particular strong reds. ( watch any ch7 lifestyle program with lots of red and you will know what I mean!) it is in effect multiplying the luminance vertical resolution but forgetting to multiply the chrominance res!

This is not apparent on native HD transmissions such as CH90 or CH 10's upconverted HD12 as the full resolution is there to begin with.

HTPC and toshiba STB users should not have this problem.

When set to HD2 ( 576 progressive ) this colour streaking problem goes away as it is no longer trying to mulitply the luminance and chrominance. However, they seem to have stuffed up the sync timing and pixel blanking on this output setting, not to mention increased instability and jitter. It almost looks more interlaced than the 1080i, which by rights should have more jitter the 576p! This should be an easy fix in firmware from the manufacturer but I have given up hoping for one to be released from dogytec!

With respect to the pink and green vertical bars down the left hand side of the set that can be moved but not eliminated by geometry tweaks. I have found this to be caused by a combination of connecting my DGTEC to the set via component. If I connect it via VGA the problem goes away. It seems that the set is not blanking the sync information that is embedded into the green channel of the component trio, and this high level signal is turning up as picture information on the far left of the frame. If you adjust it out with the width setting it only makes it reflect off the inside of the tube, it then shows up as a faint dark green vertical band down the left side that is most annoying when viewing in a darkly lit room or watching a darkly lit movie. VGA does not have this problem as the sync signals are completely seperate to the RGB channels.

The other thing I have noticed about having my STB connected via component while running 1080i is that the picture when the set is first turned on will start to cut in and out of black. It is usually fine after a few minutes once it has warmed up. Connecting via VGA eliminated this problem also.

The color pluming on the left hand side of the screen is indeed magnetic gaussing. But it seems to be internally generated by its own power supply as from what I have read it shows up in the same place on everyone elses set! it is easily fixed by degaussing in the menu though.

A few personal comments on the set:

1) The set essentially has 2 entirely descrete signal paths and even menus for HD and SD. The entire SD circuitry of the set is crap and uses very poor electronics and 100hz/progessive conversion technology. I wouldn't even bother connecting any 480i/576i Composite/S-Video/ component sources into it unless they go via an external scan doubler etc, into one of the HD inputs. The HD section is really just an over grown computer monitor with all the usual set up controls. This is the only mode I think it should be used in.

2) The picture tube is sensational and gives a lot of broadcast monitors a run for there money with respect to resolution/geometry/purity etc

3) I would recommend the Palsonic to anyone, providing they team it with a HD STB/HTPC/ progressive scan DVD combination. I'm just dirty that I didn't wait for the price reduction on these TV's, I paid over $4K for mine only a year ago !#@&*!

I hope this post is of some help to people.

Regards

Brett

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Brett,

Great post and very informative.

My heart says SONY but my Visa says PALSONIC!

I think I may take the plunge on the Palsonic...I can always hand it down to the folks when the SONY drops in price or is superceded by a super-super fine pitch HD set :blink:

PS. Are Rank still around and selling? It seems the Palsonic is in a few chains while DJ's City is the last place I saw a Rank many months ago...

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Mrmaxwell,

Yes I agree, at that price you can afford to have it as a spare for the bedroom or kids etc. I might even get one for the boat!

I have seen both of the Sony 86cm HD sets and despite having a great build quality and feature set, I still believe the Toshiba tube in the Palsonic/Rank sets have the edge.

I have never really been that much of a fan of Trintron technology, they look good the minute you take it out of the box but due to the fragile nature of the aperture grill, they tend to go down hill fairly quickly, especially if the brightness and contrast levels are wound up to high. Sony, and most of the name brands these days seem to apply too much artificial sharpening and contrast tweaking to there sets. This does not seem to be the case with the Palsonic/Rank as they are essentially just a PC monitor with no processing. ( HD side only )

Regards,

Brett

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Thanks AzzX and UHDTV for the informative posts.

AzzX the macroblocking I get occasionally is more like what you see if you encode a dvd at too low a bit rate rather than the blocking caused by a drop in signal. That is why I assumed it has something to do with the way the STB encodes the signal. I would like to do some research on the hardware/software in STB's and see how it compares to the stuff I use to convert vcr to dvd.

Maybe its time to build my HTPC and use a digital tuner card and try the 1280x768 @ 60Hz resolution and have a nice big HDD to record onto. :blink:

More research! I was going to upgrade the motherboard/cpu at home in the new year, at least I've got something to do over Christmas beside eat too much!

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Chuditch,

The macro blocking you mention is indeed an MPEG artifact. It has nothing to do with your STB, but originates in the MPEG encoding at the station. The STB simply decodes and plays what it see's coming in off the received bitstream.

Any footage with lots of colour and movement, eg bright green tree leaves swaying in the breeze, causes problems. The hardware MPEG encoders they use at the stations ( usually Tandberg Television devices, see this link http://www.tandbergtv.com/prodsys/content/encoders.asp ) are very good but are knobled by limited data rates and the need for single pass encoding required for live real time content to reduce latency.

The quality of the encoding is largly depedant on the source footage. Footage with a lot of noise in the original is much harder to compress and ends up with average results despite using even high data rates.

I must say though that the quality they mange given these restrictions is remarkably good.

Regards

Brett

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The macroblocking I saw was worst on the Ch 9 League telecasts earlier in the year.

Everytime they had long shots of plays the whole screen would just 'macroblock'....nasty stuff. They'll need to improve this dramatically if they want to go HD with live telecasts.

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Got mine yesterday and so far so good. Panasonic HDSTB is on backorder as there is no stock till new year. Picked up a Unimax PS DVD player at Strathfield for $118 and it works well in the HD inputs.

A couple of questions - which is the best input for the DVD, the HD component or the VGA. I can't really tell the difference.

Also my HD picture could do with sharpening a bit. Is there any way to do this through the menu ??

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Hi Lickster

Also my HD picture could do with sharpening a bit

Have you tried wearing glasses :blink: (Just kidding)

Unimax PS DVD player at Strathfield for $118

Is this progessive for both Pal & NTSC?

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Palsonic responded to my email sent Saturday...

Thanks for the inquiry.

The Horizontal bars rolling up and down seems like generate from the set

top box.

So they do see the horizontal bars now on HD1.....

How come other HDTV's connected to HD1 don't have these rolling lines? It's not the broadcast.

Try using the HD component Y Pr Pb and set the set top box to

HD2.

Now they suggest we use our HDTV for 576p (that's what component with HD2 is)?

His view of the horizontal rolling bars is that it's nothing to do with the set itself. More to do with the actual broadcast from the tv networks.  He acknowledged that it's not an issue with the antenna.

How come people with other TV's can't see it then? And its on EVERY channel (upconverted SD and HD) & every state? And no other TV sees it?

These bars are driving me batty...no they are not that big an issue...in fact that's the problem. They come and go. Tuesday night I was testing (not watching) and looking for bars. Viewing screen from around 30cm to 90cm away. Had the DGTEC 2000a set to HD1 and HD2 and could not notice bars...then around 10:30 - 11:00 PM they're back...worse on HD1 but noticeable on HD2.

Tonight...dreadful on HD1, non existent (as I type) on HD2.

From my perspective major issue at the present point in time is the bow along the top of the screen image. Palsonic service man was to check specs and revert. Over a week and he hasn't got back to me.

He also offered to come back with an HD DVD player and re-test for the bars in need.

I'll chase this up over the next few days. Hope service techs aren't taking time off over Christmas, because I am :blink: and intend getting him back during my time off.

Travis, have you seen the various comments on this forum re dgtec 2000a and using HD2...try this link. I'd be interested in your thoughts.

Dans Data

I've also mentioned this issue under the broadcast section of the forum and a couple of possibly useful suggestions can be found there. I haven't tried these yet but will do so over the next few days.

blairy

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Going on price vs features would it be safe to say that the Palsonic is still a good buy?

I've noticed the price of the Pana superfine pitch 76cm slowly creeping down during the Xmas sales, which cannot be ignored.

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Realised I could sharpen the picture by adjusting via the DVD player - this isn't a bad player. It does do progressive scan via NTSC and PAL with both outputs to the HDTV available. I've got the picture looking pretty good now thanks to the THX Optimiser on Monsters Inc. It's just about as good as my PC monitor.

Adjusted a little saturation to give it a tad more colour. A bit confusing for a while sorting out progressive/component etc but overall I'm pretty happy with the PS picture now.

The tuner pic is crap as mentioned earlier (and I can't quite get to grips with the "Panorama" angle deforming people !!!) Geez I hope my HDSTB arrives pretty soon.

Thoroughly happy with my TV though !!!!

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I finally took the plunge after reading all the posts in this forum. Popped into my local Mount Waverley Retravision store the week before Christmas to audition the Palsonic 76WSHD. It faired quite well against the Sony & Panasonic with SD transmissions; with HD (the salesperson obliged my request to hook it up to a DGTEC 2000A) looked brilliant besides the plasma and LCD panels. They had a stack of the 2000As but ran out of the Panasonic 2140---according to the salesperson, the 2000A comes in lots of 20s whereas the 2140 in 5s---maybe that was just the way they order stuff.

The RRPs were 76WSHD @ $1,999; 2000A @ $749; 76WSHD cabinet @ $299. I got the lot for $2,400 which were delivered that evening.

Installation was a breeze and I was watching DTV in under 10 mins. My opinion on the 76WSHD? DTV via XGA and dvd via YPbPr rock!!! I recently bought a Harman Kardon DVD30 dvd player which was my main reason for upgrading my Sony 68cm to one that takes progressive scans. Watching dvds in PS takes on a whole new meaning on the 76WSHD. All scan lines disappear; The Two Towers extended edition looked sooo glorious and I could actually see the scales on Marlin and Nemo on the Finding Nemo dvd. IMHO, the colour tone of the 76WSHD is more akin to the German tubes (Loewe, Metz, etc.) which was surprising. The depth of field is amazing with the Ch 9 HD demo loop.

OK, the 76WSHD is not perfect. Here are my list of cons.

- I can see the horizontal banding with HD signals but not all the time and not always on the same channels. No banding with dvd viewing.

- the downward bow at the top of the screen is present but not so severe that I couldn't adjust the V-size/V-phase slightly to get rid of it.

- I wish that each HD video input has its own set of audio inputs. The XGA port to connect to the 2000A and YPbPr to my DVD30. I used the HD audio ports for DTV as I don't want to have surround audio everytime I watch DTV (but I do connect the 2000A coaxial digital to my surround processor).

- I wish the 76WSHD has an OSD that displays the resolution. With DTV signals, it's always showing 28.1kHz/50Hz which according to the manual is 1920x1080i in 16:9.

- Each DTV channel seems to be transmitted in a slightly different geometry. It is impossible to max. screen real estate for every channel without losing too much over the screen edges.

- I also connect my dvd player via S-Video for 4:3 viewing (eg., The Wiggles) and I do find the reds a bit intense. I haven't adjusted it yet using something like Ultimate DVD; I'm sure my 14-mth old toddler doesn't really mind :P .

- The horizontal tearing in the middle of the screen is there if I set the VCR input to PS. Setting it to auto-scan (which sets it to 100Hz) fixes the problem.

All in all, I'm extremely satisfied with my purchase. I probably won't recommend the 76WSHD to persons who expect everything to work perfectly. But I can't ask for more from $2,400 for a HD setup with a cabinet. My primary objective was for better dvd viewing and the 76WSHD delivered that. DTV was a bonus and I was happy to get the cheapest (?) HD STB with the 2000A.

BTW, I highly recommend the Harman Kardon DVD30 dvd player :blink: .

Cheers.

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- I can see the horizontal banding with HD signals but not all the time and not always on the same channels.  No banding with dvd viewing.

- the downward bow at the top of the screen is present but not so severe that I couldn't adjust the V-size/V-phase slightly to get rid of it.

- I wish the 76WSHD has an OSD that displays the resolution.  With DTV signals, it's always showing 28.1kHz/50Hz which according to the manual is 1920x1080i in 16:9.

- Each DTV channel seems to be transmitted in a slightly different geometry.  It is impossible to max. screen real estate for every channel without losing too much over the screen edges.

- I also connect my dvd player via S-Video for 4:3 viewing (eg., The Wiggles) and I do find the reds a bit intense.  I haven't adjusted it yet using something like Ultimate DVD; I'm sure my 14-mth old toddler doesn't really mind  :P .

Congratulations apchoo...

I'm trying to borrow (I'd love to buy the HK DVD 30) a PS DVD player and see if the banding is still there.

Palsonic service tech is still to revert re the bow along top edge of screen on my set. As you say, it can be lived with.

OSD does display the resolution. DGTEC 2000a outputs everything at the same resolution. Try setting the output switch to HD 2. You'll see a different resolution. What resolution do you get for DVD display?

Agree about the differing geometry of each station. CH9 HD demo actually leaves an unused band along the bottom edge of the screen. I generally pick ABC HD during the day and get that pretty right and all else seems OK. Of course then SBS (or someone) will broadcast a slightly smaller WS image, which when widened mucks up the settings for all else. Welcome to the joys of bleeding edge technology :blink:

S-Video from 2000a has been mentioned elsewhere on this forum. Try this link URL=http://www.dtvforum.info/index.php?showtopic=2074]Dgtec S-video[/url]

blairy

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OSD does display the resolution. DGTEC 2000a outputs everything at the same resolution. Try setting the output switch to HD 2.  You'll see a different resolution.  What resolution do you get for DVD display?

I thought I was going bonkers :blink: when blairy said that the OSD displays the resolution on the screen so I tried it again last night while viewing DTV from the 2000A via XGA. The green LED on the 76WSHD lit up everytime I pressed the OSD button but no text appeared on screen. Same thing with dvd via YPbPr. However, when viewing Video1 (dvd via S-Video), the following text appeared:

PAL 5.5MHz

100Hz MOVING

It seems my Palsonic doesn't have OSD displays for both HD inputs. Can blairy or any other 76WSHD owners please confirm that that is the case or is there a flaw with my TV? The manual does not specify the OSD display for either HD inputs.

I haven't tried HD2 yet. Will do so over the long NYE weekend.

Cheers.

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apchoo, in HD mode press the menu button. Along the bottom edge of the OSD are the details you're looking for. If you compare these to the specs in the back of the manual you'll be able to work out whther you're watching 1080i or 720p or whatever...

blairy

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Thank you! That was how I worked out the resolution earlier :blink:. My 2000A@HD1 via XGA always outputs in 1920x1080i (28kHz/50Hz) regardless of which DTV channel I select. I'll check the resolution tonight while viewing a dvd in PAL PS via YPbPr.

Cheers.

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Palsonic service man (after a bit of follow up by me) made second visit earlier this afternoon.

The two issues I have with set are:

1. A banding rolling up and down the screen

Tech believes banding is an issue with the digital broadcast. Banding is not evident on normal RF input fta analogue, nor is it apparent on AV in via composite for Foxtel satellite. I didn't test it while he was here but it's also not evident from DVD's (component SD input) or Xbox (AV via composite). During prior visit he hooked up his own STB (also a dgtec 2000a) and banding was also evident. He's going to s/w his manager and try to arrange to come out with a second set to confirm his view that banding is an issue with the digital broadcast and not the TV itself.

2. A noticeable bow or downward curve along the top of the screen image. This is especially obvious in HD mode when adjusting screen, but also (and to a lesser extent) in normal mode when watching a letterboxed image.

After previous visit he was supposed to discuss with his technical area and revert. He had discussed and someone was meant to call back...Anyway, this is an issue he referred to as yoke and it cannot be fixed, not even back in the factory where set is made. All these sets have varying degrees of yoke, some more noticeable than others. He acknowledged that this will be an issue when watching letterboxed DVD's or foxtel.

Now I understand that with regards to a CRT TV, that a yoke is a device fitted to the neck of a cathode ray tube to control the scanning motion of the electron beam. What I don't understand is why this can't be done correctly in all instances and whether or not this imperfection is something I should simply learn to live with.

Any thoughts would be appreciated.

blairy

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Add another to the list of happy Palsonic owners.

Just curious what DVD players people would recommend to go with this TV?

I'm thinking at least PAL and NTSC progressive scan, such as the Sony DVPNS730 perhaps?

Any other suggestions?

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Hi guys, after reading this post, I'm now very keen on one of these sets, but I was wondering if anyone has been able to pick one up on finance, and still get the price of $1999?

I called my local Retravision today, they immediately said $1999 on the phone, I thought I could definitely talk them down to $1800-$1850, plus I also want a STB to go with it...but...as soon as I mentioned the word 'finance' they balooned the price up to $2400 or $2700 including the DGTECH STB :blink:

I just can't justify that, if I could get the two for $2400-$2500 on finance (don't they still make interest off me?) I would take it.

Alternatively, I could go for a DEC HD3276, but I don't know if they do finance, does anyone know if they do offer any of the 12 months interest free deals?

Cheers,

Pat.

EDIT - I'd be happy to go with Harvey Norman (eeek!!) or another company, not stuck looking at Retravision / DEC, they just seem to be the go.

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