Pre-Amp/Power Amp vs Integrated Amp - why not get the intregrated one?

[rantan]

23 minutes ago, powerav said:

Nice to see some good ol' common sense.

 

Maybe............except for the part where it was claimed that there were 11 channels of 200W

[AMCNAD]

For what it is worth, I went from Cambridge CX200 to Marantz Pre and Elektra HD2 and thought there was little difference

[rantan]

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Edited August 30, 2017 by rantan

[betty boop]

1 minute ago, AMCNAD said:

For what it is worth, I went from Cambridge CX200 to Marantz Pre and Elektra HD2 and thought there was little difference

 

the CX200 is a genuine beast of an AVR though... cambridge make some seriously grunty avrs  

 

the cx200 only claims 120w all channel driven,

 

and we are talking there with the cx200 a 1800w max consumption. that would actually be comparable for the elektra with its 2200w supply and cx200 like the elektra its sharing its power reserves  across only 7 channels.... 

 

vs the integra thats sharing its 380w max consumption i.e. most can pull off the wall spread across 11 channels !!!!

[cwt]

41 minutes ago, Serpeant said:

Anyway, I've decided to wait of and the the successor to the Marantz 6012 so that it will have HDMI 2.1 compatibility. I've decided this because I dont need 200 watts for the ceiling or rear speakers.

As with all major new iterations of the hdmi protocol the chipsets will be in short supply initially Serpeant  ; its not like hdmi 2.0 followed by 2.0a then .b ; variations on a theme..

Its a bit like the situation with dolby atmos chipsets decoding more than 7.1.4 ; the powerful chipsets for more than 4 ceilings have taken ages to materialise '; theres only a veryfew manufacturers ;analog devices are one http://www.analog.com/en/products/processors-dsp/sharc/adsp-sc573.html

[digitalhome]

1 hour ago, Serpeant said:

 

Cheers for that! The Integra R1 actually does 11 channels at 200 watts!!!!

 

Anyway, I've decided to wait of and the the successor to the Marantz 6012 so that it will have HDMI 2.1 compatibility. I've decided this because I dont need 200 watts for the ceiling or rear speakers.

Then you will be waiting for the successor to the successor of the 6012 for some new feature(s) to be introduced! You may as well buy now and trade up as features change. Because once you are on the round-about of electronics, you will never get off until you no longer are interested in new technology and benefits. 

 

Enjoy the music NOW!

[JSmith]

1 hour ago, Serpeant said:

The Integra R1 actually does 11 channels at 200 watts

 

As others have mentioned... nah;

 

http://www.audioholics.com/av-receiver-reviews/integra-drc-r1-preamp-drx-r1-receiver

 

The receiver is rated to deliver 140 watts per channel into 8 ohms, but that rating is with only two channels driven.

 

JSmith

[betty boop]

@Serpeant wish you well in what ever settle on. certainly by all means as i said in my initial post buy the integrated if "happy enough with the amp within"

 

many of us run "integrated" amps or AVRS in this case, I myself did for many years. there are certainly reasons to go the AVR. as there are reasons to go with separates. just for you to weigh up.

 

can certainly await the next best thing, and by all means do so if important to you. however one thing I know for sure is there will always be something else better around the corner. its how the Oems keep the till turning over and people coming back for more. at some stage you have to pick the right time to jump in... or stay by the side lines

[digitalhome]

1 hour ago, Serpeant said:

 

Cheers for that! The Integra R1 actually does 11 channels at 200 watts!!!!

 

 

The U.S. version at 120V consumes a max of 340w. 11 channels at 200 watts? I would say around 28 watts per channel with all channels driven.

[betty boop]

11 minutes ago, digitalhome said:

Then you will be waiting for the successor to the successor of the 6012 for some new feature(s) to be introduced! You may as well buy now and trade up as features change. Because once you are on the round-about of electronics, you will never get off until you no longer are interested in new technology and benefits. 

 

Enjoy the music NOW!

 

this is spot on... and is one of the reasons some do go the separates ... as that way the amps stay and you can just update on the processing when the time comes. i was fortunate with my last processor it kept getting updates hardware and soft ware allowing me to run it for 8 years !  but yeah i can 100% see the handy approach AVRs give particularly with 3D audio. 

 

9 minutes ago, JSmith said:

 

As others have mentioned... nah;

 

http://www.audioholics.com/av-receiver-reviews/integra-drc-r1-preamp-drx-r1-receiver

 

The receiver is rated to deliver 140 watts per channel into 8 ohms, but that rating is with only two channels driven.

 

JSmith

 

and this makes sense with only 380w max consumption on tap... i.e. 140x2=280   you cant pull more out the wall than the amp is capable off  

[powerav]

2 hours ago, AMCNAD said:

For what it is worth, I went from Cambridge CX200 to Marantz Pre and Elektra HD2 and thought there was little difference

Yes I agree, an integra 80.3 and elektra HD2 and then Rotel 1075 wasn't a huge improvement or even any over some AVR's I have had including Cambridge 651 and any combination of Integra AVR and power amp for front channels but the Pre and Power amps are so much more inconvenient. 

This all goes back to the Marantz 6012 and why I think it's a great but, they realise that the amps are not the greatest hence why they have improved the pre amp stage. They also realise with all the extra channels you need for 7.1.4 most (normal)  aint gonna go out and buy or even have the space for 2 multi channel power amps.

 

 

Edited August 30, 2017 by powerav

[powerav]

1 hour ago, rantan said:

 

Maybe............except for the part where it was claimed that there were 11 channels of 200W

I was referring to the no need for 200 watt power amps for effect channels, we all know that the 11 channels @ 200W in AVR's is fairy dust.

[powerav]

The downside with Pre/pros is that when it comes time to update be prepared to take a massive loss as there is only a very small market for these so you have to be very lucky to sell for even a 10th of original price. Don't even try to trade one in, lucky to get $200 bucks for it. Yes this is the price I was offered at Len Wallis for an Integra 80.3, was lucky enough to sell for around $800.

[Serpeant]

I hear you all and that's why I post - to get advice from people more experienced!

 

I'm in no rush and because content is still limited, I'm going to wait for HDMI 2.1. My current 7.1 setup has lasted me 10 years! What's another year without Atmos?

 

I dont even have a 4k TV .

 

I guess separates is probably the way to go as this would most likely save me money in the long run.

 

The thing is, I can get a 7.1.4 Atmos setup for $2100 if I went the Marantz 6012 and my XPA-5.

 

If I went separates, I'd get the Elektra (say $3k) and then the Marantz 7702 or 7703 ($3.5k). So its a matter of $2100 vs $6500!

 

That's a massive spend difference if the sound quality difference would only be say 10%?

 

Then there's the wife and kids which means I wont be cranking it every night.

 

So many dilemmas!

Edited August 30, 2017 by Serpeant

[powerav]

@Serpeant do you have 2 subs? If not then my opinion that would be a better investment than the extra poweramps. 2 subs for me has been the biggest improvement with all the different systems I have had.

[cwt]

1 hour ago, powerav said:

 aint gonna go out and buy or even have the space for 2 multi channel power amps.

Say again ? Sorry couldn't resist ; if your wondering its a emo xpa mk3 modular amp and can have mono blades substituted for these stereo ones if you have low impedance speakers ..Custom cage type architecture a bit like a Maridian 800 series pre pro.

 

There are a few brands that have upgradeable hdmi ; but only very few that have a good track record in upgrading them if buying for the long term ; none are the mainline ones like D&M Holdings upgrade each year type 

 

[betty boop]

1 hour ago, Serpeant said:

I hear you all and that's why I post - to get advice from people more experienced!

 

I'm in no rush and because content is still limited, I'm going to wait for HDMI 2.1. My current 7.1 setup has lasted me 10 years! What's another year without Atmos?

 

I dont even have a 4k TV .

 

am not sure in what way you feel content is limited. we have had 130 uhd released in 18 months uhd has been around this isn't counting the 17 or so discs due in the next couple of months or so or the discs we dont even get in this country and available overseas. I dont think a week goes by without watching something uhd and also there is 4k streaming and such if you want it. content wise we have what we have and will continue to get a steady release. if its 3D audio stuff talking about with content, well atmos is probably one of THE best things I did in my setup and its benefitted everything not only native discs and 3D audio is typically got with the UHDs. 

 

if you buy in now you get to enjoy the back catalog and what comes. if buy in later you get to enjoy a larger back catalog and what comes. one way just delays the enjoyment of the same one way or other

 

if want to do a rip van winkle for sure take a break for next 2 years see again after that and if still doesnt take fancy take another two years. there indeed doesnt need to be any rush.

 

1 hour ago, Serpeant said:

I guess separates is probably the way to go as this would most likely save me money in the long run.

 

The thing is, I can get a 7.1.4 Atmos setup for $2100 if I went the Marantz 6012 and my XPA-5.

 

If I went separates, I'd get the Elektra (say $3k) and then the Marantz 7702 or 7703 ($3.5k). So its a matter of $2100 vs $6500!

 

That's a massive spend difference if the sound quality difference would only be say 10%?

 

separates can be better off in the long run. because not throwing out baby with the bath water every time you upgrade. amps can stay its only the processing side that keeps moving on.

 

and re power amps you cant compare them with amps built in avrs. i hope we have shown that ! even the marantz we are looking at a more decent power supply there is 680w about twice what the integra has but the marantz is class AB and runs about 60% efficiency suddenly its not leaps and bounds up form the integra. even the flagship marantz 7012 your looking at some another 30w max consumption there comes a limit what can squeeze in a chasis !  likes of denon and marantz expect you going to pony up to separates if wanting more decent amps. however as said before if happy enough with the amps on board ... go for it ... many do and dont doubt something will be very happy with 

 

 

 

 

[powerav]

16 minutes ago, cwt said:

if your wondering its a emo xpa mk3 modular amp and can have mono blades substituted for these stereo ones if you have low impedance speakers

Yeah great product, could have single for F/C/R and double for the rest. Would be over $4000 though plus another $4000 plus for Pre if new so once again is it all worth it. I know it's great for nuts like us but I wouldn't sell my house for it.

Edited August 30, 2017 by powerav

[betty boop]

24 minutes ago, cwt said:

There are a few brands that have upgradeable hdmi ; but only very few that have a good track record in upgrading them if buying for the long term ; none are the mainline ones like D&M Holdings upgrade each year type 

 

certainly are,  you dont have to keep turning over processors. the last one a denon took me through 8 years because the manufacturer kept it update with hard ware and software updates including hdmi. my current one in a marantz is 2 years old and had software updates and a hardware upgrade (including hdmi) and is promised an upgrade next year to maintain  its something i certainly hope to keep for a while but dont own a crystal ball

 

[betty boop]

1 hour ago, Serpeant said:

Then there's the wife and kids which means I wont be cranking it every night.

 

not many people probably do, but you can take some measure like making sure your in ceilings have decent back boxes because as much sound volume is going in your room will also otherwise be going in ceiling space or cavity between floors if in a 2 level travelling all over the house.. we enjoy stuff downstairs even if kids in bed sleeping upstairs   its one thing i have also found is with good quality amplification how you dont tend to have to crank to enjoy. I can easily enjoy something at -29 db, -24 db, full tilt but rarely tend to go past -21db. 

[cwt]

4 minutes ago, powerav said:

Yeah great product, could have single for F/C/R and double for the rest. Would be over $4000 though plus another $4000 plus for Pre if new so once again is it all worth it. I know it's great for nuts like us but I wouldn't sell my house for it.

Point taken certainly. That's for those who don't have a 25% off or 40& off card for the pre pro that I noticed  for sale here the other day  Or just go for a bargain MC700 7.1 pre pro until your ready for atmos etc. 

4 minutes ago, al said:

 

certainly are,  you dont have to keep turning over processors. the last one a denon took me through 8 years because the manufacturer kept it update with hard ware and software updates including hdmi. my current one in a marantz is 2 years old and had software updates and a hardware upgrade (including hdmi) and is promised a hard ware upgrade next year to maintain  its something i certainly hope to keep for a while but dont own a crystal ball

 

Yes Al ; the perks of going for the statement pieces can be worth it ; there were a few cheesed of 8801 owners that didn't get the hdmi2.0 upgrade the step down 7702 model got so I appreciate the boutique makers that don't put out a model each year - a bit strange I know .. . I cant see any great reason to worry about hdmi 2.1 really when we have dual output uhd players , Theres a sweet spot for most when hdmi says 8k and you say no thanks .. 

[betty boop]

2 minutes ago, cwt said:

Yes Al ; the perks of going for the statement pieces can be worth it ; there were a few cheesed of 8801 owners that didn't get the hdmi2.0 upgrade the step down 7702 model got so I appreciate the boutique makers that don't put out a model each year - a bit strange I know .. . I cant see any great reason to worry about hdmi 2.1 really when we have dual output uhd players , Theres a sweet spot for most when hdmi says 8k and you say no thanks .. 

 

with any piece you just cant expect makers to keep updating. the 8801 was pre uhd. my denon pre the same. i never bought my denon expecting would keep getting updated, little did know would still be running it 8 years later.

 

same with the marantz now, pleased it got its first upgrade and pleased marantz is maintaining for the next update. this by the way is same for any 2015 denon/marantz so not unique to pre i have and great to see,

 

am not really one for continually updating. tend to buy well buy once. and thinking back gee am glad i bought that denon as over that 8 years i probably saved buying and selling and something in order of losses from moving on 4+ avrs ! 

 

who know what the years will bring. but yep I have no idea why the op is chasing hdmi 2.1 but  i''ll be one of those saying no thanks for 8k. we cant fully appreciate 4k in the home. we sure as hell dont need 8k. 4k only also has got sold due to wcg and HDR and including 3D audio formats on the disc, gee 8k is going to be one hell of a sell !

 

[cwt]

Ime drawn to anyone that has the hdmi pcb separate with a couple of ribbon cables you can replace yourself Al [ but don't like it when they charge like a wounded bull for this] - Krell was terrible with this upgrade to play UHD BD and a few osd changes..

Quote

 

Upgrades to the Foundation 4K will have regular price of $2,500. 

The Foundation 4K upgrade includes: Four HDMI 2.2 compatible inputs that will support: 

Up to 1080p 60Hz signals including 24/30/36-bit RGB/YCbCr 4:4:4/xvYCC, and 16/20/24-bit YCbCr 4:2:2 video formats. 

Up to 4K x 2K signals @ 30 Hz with 24-bit RGB/YCbCr 4:4:4/YCbCr 4:2:2, and up to 4k x 2k @ 60Hz with 12-bit YCbCr 4:2:0. 

 

 

and cudos to the sister companies Marantz/Denon to enable the dolby vision passthrough in this rapid hdr tech advance

 

 

[powerav]

This is my take on it all and I don't expect many to agree but that's fine.

with all the different avr's, amps, pre pro system that I have had with movies there ain't that much difference biggest improvement was speakers and extra sub, with equipment even going back to a Yamaha RX-V2090 and a Denon 3803 that I had for 9 years I still remember how awesome Twister was on Laserdisc so as long as you stick with something decent then all are pretty similar.

Now the thing I was chasing was 2 channel audio and the main problem was just simple 44.1 quality cd material, I found that all hi res material was fine on AVR's it was strangely the 16 bit stuff.

I went down the specialist integrated amp path and yes most material was pretty awesome but with most of this low volume production stuff usability was always an issue. 

You just have to look on the 2 channel threads to see how many problems people have with some amps no good at low volumes or others not the best with certain genres etc.

The answer for me is an avr that is decent with music, 2 subs and power amp for fronts.

Feet up and enjoy and no more analysising every note.