Naim NAC A4 cable opinions in a non-Naim system

[karmakat]

Hi guys,

 

Thought it time to re-evaluate my speaker cable - I'm running Sonique 5.5 SE's off an Accupahse E204 and using the Naim NAC A4 10ft cable.

 

I'd appreciate any ideas on whether Naim speaker cable is intended only for Naim systems or for any? How is this cable rated and what are it's characteristics?

 

How do you know when it's too old ?

 

Also what might be an alternative to consider at a reasonable budget?

 

Thanks for any suggestions,

 

Ben

[Guest Eggcup The Daft]

Naim cable can dull high frequencies when used with other amps. I took advantage of that with my last speakers. Following a break in one of the no-name (pun not intended) cables I was using until this week, I've put the Naim cable back in my current system (it will stay there until I'm back from overseas) and the difference is noticeable, but not for the better.

Age shouldn't matter too much. It's worth cleaning the connectors once a year or so.

 

 

[michaelw]

definitely clean those connectors, better yet, chop off the plugs and re-terminate.

 

i had some naca4 which i used as a spare cable and in the home theatre.

 

it's not a bad cable, does what it should without fuss.

 

i prefer it to the naca5.

 

 

 

[SimonS]

Naim cable is intended for use in Naim systems,in which it works well,in my opinion it is really no good in any other system.

One of my systems is naim,so i have  tried with my other equipment,always getting poor results

[andyr]

On 8/17/2017 at 10:11 AM, karmakat said:

Hi guys,

 

Thought it time to re-evaluate my speaker cable - I'm running Sonique 5.5 SE's off an Accupahse E204 and using the Naim NAC A4 10ft cable.

 

I'd appreciate any ideas on whether Naim speaker cable is intended only for Naim systems or for any? How is this cable rated and what are it's characteristics?

 

How do you know when it's too old ?

 

Also what might be an alternative to consider at a reasonable budget?

 

Thanks for any suggestions,

 

Ben

 

 

The reason why Naim cable doesn't go well with non-Naim amplifiers is because it was built to have an appreciable 'L' - as Naim amps were (are?) built without the usual output inductor ... so the cable provided the necessary inductance.  Unfortunately, inductance is the last thing you want in a speaker cable - when the amp has an output inductor.  A cable with as low-as-possible 'L' is what you need.

 

Almost any other speaker cable would be better with your Accuphase.  ZB would recommend a cable made from RG213 ... I would suggest you use solid-core Cat5.  For 10' cables, get hold of 40'' of Cat5 and use 2 runs to each Sonique (the 8 solid-colour strands for '+ve' and the 8 striped strands for '-ve').  For a top job, use plenum-rated Cat 5 - which has the individual strands teflon-coated instead of PVC-coated.

 

Andy

 

[PKay]

Good explanation Andy, it is also why Naim recommend a minimum length of 3.5m. Their theory is that the SQ is better by using the cable as the inductor rather than an output inductor in the amp.

[Zaphod Beeblebrox]

ANY cable (literally) will be better than Naim cable. It is a dumb cable, designed for use with dumb amplifiers. It has excessive amounts of inductance and should not be used with any competently designed amplifier (which is 99.9% of them). As Andy has suggested, good quality Cat6 cable can be used, but it is VERY time consuming to make. RG213/U will offer equivalent performance to FIVE runs of Cat6 (carefully and suitably plaited), but takes 1/10th the time to terminate. It costs around 4 Bucks/Metre. Nothing comes close, value for money. Cat6 is good, but if you value you spare time, there are better options. 

[Zaphod Beeblebrox]

1 hour ago, Nap250 said:

Good explanation Andy, it is also why Naim recommend a minimum length of 3.5m. Their theory is that the SQ is better by using the cable as the inductor rather than an output inductor in the amp.

 

Good theory, except for the fact that there are plenty of well designed amplifiers that don't require any output inductor. Naim cable will cripple the performance of any amplifier that uses it. Except Naim, of course. Naim speaker cable is essential to stop them from blowing up. 

[PKay]

3 hours ago, Zaphod Beeblebrox said:

 

Good theory, except for the fact that there are plenty of well designed amplifiers that don't require any output inductor. Naim cable will cripple the performance of any amplifier that uses it. Except Naim, of course. Naim speaker cable is essential to stop them from blowing up. 

It works since I've had a naim system as one of my systems for over 20 years and it's never blown up, or run hot. 

[andyr]

5 hours ago, Nap250 said:

It works since I've had a naim system as one of my systems for over 20 years and it's never blown up, or run hot. 

 

Hah - you obviously were using easy-to-drive speakers, Peter! 

 

When I was using 2x 250s and a 140 to passively tri-amp my Maggies (over 20 years ago), they would frequently shut down (from the thermal cutout) when playing Pink Floyd!

 

Andy

 

[andyr]

10 hours ago, Nap250 said:

Good explanation Andy, it is also why Naim recommend a minimum length of 3.5m. Their theory is that the SQ is better by using the cable as the inductor rather than an output inductor in the amp.

 

Sure - that's what the Naim marketing blurb said.    But I reckon JV was just saving a dollar per amp. 

 

Andy

 

[sir sanders zingmore]

4 hours ago, andyr said:

 

Sure - that's what the Naim marketing blurb said.    But I reckon JV was just saving a dollar per amp. 

 

Andy

 

And getting the added kicker of the cable sale 

 

[andyr]

8 hours ago, Sir Sanders Zingmore said:

And getting the added kicker of the cable sale 

 

 

Haha, yes - smart marketing guy, was the old Julian! 

 

Andy

[Tasebass]

2 hours ago, andyr said:

 

Haha, yes - smart marketing guy, was the old Julian! 

 

Andy

 

C'on Andy show some respect....R.I.P.  Julian..

 

Surprised you and a few others ain't started 'Ivor Bashing"yet...

 

Footnote.....I used NAC 4 when I had a NAD 7125 Receiver driving some Goodmans speakers Way back when....sounded good to Me...

 

Tase.

Edited August 20, 2017 by Tasebass

[Zaphod Beeblebrox]

On 8/19/2017 at 0:40 PM, Nap250 said:

It works since I've had a naim system as one of my systems for over 20 years and it's never blown up, or run hot. 

 

And the Naim amps would have been more reliable, had they employed internally fitted output inductors, OR if they employed more sophisticated topology, which would allow them to operate without any output inductor. That way, any speaker cable could be used with impunity.

[karmakat]

Thanks Andy and others for the input - I'll check out that cat5 cable and give it a go. 
 

 

[Zaphod Beeblebrox]

23 minutes ago, karmakat said:

Thanks Andy and others for the input - I'll check out that cat5 cable and give it a go. 
 

 

 

The Cat5 option is slow and messy. Go the RG213/U. Much faster to terminate and much easier to get it right. To get Cat5/6 right requires that each individual twisted pair be separated and used for +ve and -ve respectively. To equal RG213/U in resistance, requires FIVE runs of Cat5/6. And further: Don't waste your time with Cat5. If you must spend a couple of days terminating such cables correctly, use Cat6. Cat6 is specified to use HDPE insulation. Cat5 uses the vastly inferior, PVC insulation. 

[andyr]

29 minutes ago, Zaphod Beeblebrox said:

 

Cat6 is specified to use HDPE insulation. Cat5 uses the vastly inferior, PVC insulation. 

 

Trevor, you need to be careful to check your facts before posting.  Sure, normal Cat5 uses PVC insulation.  however, plenum-rated Cat5 (eg. the Belden 1585a that I use) has teflon insulation on the strands.

 

Andy

 

[Zaphod Beeblebrox]

3 minutes ago, andyr said:

 

Trevor, you need to be careful to check your facts before posting.  Sure, normal Cat5 uses PVC insulation.  however, plenum-rated Cat5 (eg. the Belden 1585a that I use) has teflon insulation on the strands.

 

Andy

 

 

I'm sure it does. The vast majority of Cat5 (which is what most people buy) uses PVC. Either way, RG213/U is a superior choice anyway. Don't forget: Anything less than 5 runs of Cat5/6 will deliver lower performance than RG213/U. Not to mention how much effort is required to correctly wire Cat5/6. 

[andyr]

35 minutes ago, Zaphod Beeblebrox said:

 

Either way, RG213/U is a superior choice anyway.

 

 

That's your opinion, Trevor.  It has a stranded centre core - so it's not something that those of us who follow the late, great Allen Wright's advice about the benefits of

solid-core wires will ever use.

 

Andy

 

[Zaphod Beeblebrox]

2 minutes ago, andyr said:

 

That's your opinion, Trevor.  It has a stranded centre core - so it's not something that those of us who follow the late, great Allen Wright's advice about the benefits of

solid-core wires will ever use.

 

Andy

 

 

Three points:

 

* Cat5/6 is also stranded. Unless you use only one pair of wires. In which case it will be useless as speaker cable.

* RG213/U is a coaxial cable. The fact that it is stranded is irrelevant. I suggest you study up on transmission line theory as it pertains to coaxial cable. All will become clear. Solid core cables do have some validity, UNLESS we're discussing coax. 

* IF, you feel that a solid centre core is essential, then you can buy solid core RG213/U. It is VERY stiff and VERY hard to work with though.

 

 

 

Have you compared RG213/U to Cat5/6?

[andyr]

16 minutes ago, Zaphod Beeblebrox said:

 

Three points:

 

* Cat5/6 is also stranded. Unless you use only one pair of wires. In which case it will be useless as speaker cable.

* RG213/U is a coaxial cable. The fact that it is stranded is irrelevant. I suggest you study up on transmission line theory as it pertains to coaxial cable. All will become clear. Solid core cables do have some validity, UNLESS we're discussing coax. 

* IF, you feel that a solid centre core is essential, then you can buy solid core RG213/U. It is VERY stiff and VERY hard to work with though.

 

Have you compared RG213/U to Cat5/6?

 

 

I believe it is possible to buy cheap Cat5 or 6 which is stranded ... but the stuff I use (Belden 1585a) is solid-core.  Sure, using multiple twisted pairs to make up the wire to the speaker means you have multiple strands ... but the strands are individually insulated - so it's a Litz wire configuration ... ie. it is 'solid core'.

 

No, I haven't listened to a comparison between Belden 1585a and RG213/U ... for the simple reason that:

• 'normal' RG213/U is stranded (which I don't use), and
• the solid-core version is, as you say, impossible to work with (for speaker cable). 

 

But I have braided 3 lengths of the central insulated core of RG213/U to make some heavy-duty power cords.  (The insulation is rated to 1000v.)    See pic.

 

 

Andy

 

Edited August 21, 2017 by andyr

[Zaphod Beeblebrox]

5 minutes ago, andyr said:

 

I believe it is possible to buy cheap Cat5 or 6 which is stranded ... but the stuff I use (Belden 1585a) is solid-core.  Sure, using multiple twisted pairs to make up the wire to the speaker means you have multiple strands ... but the strands are individually insulated - so it's a Litz wire configuration ... ie. it is 'solid core'.

 

No, it's not. It is stranded (which is what I was referring to when I said it was stranded). But yes, it does emulate Litz configuration. All pointless with audio in any case. And again: I accept that solid core cable may have some validity in audio systems. Claiming that RG213/U is bad, because it is stranded, misses the point about coaxial cables. Again: A text on transmission theory will explain why the stranded nature of coax cable is irrelevant. 

 

5 minutes ago, andyr said:

 

No, I haven't listened to a comparison between Belden 1585a and RG213/U ... for the simple reason that:

• 'normal' RG213/U is stranded (which I don't use), and
• the solid-core version is, as you say, impossible to work with (for speaker cable). 

 

 

Again: Transmission line theory explodes that myth. 

[Weka]

 

7 minutes ago, Zaphod Beeblebrox said:

 

No, it's not. It is stranded (which is what I was referring to when I said it was stranded). But yes, it does emulate Litz configuration. All pointless with audio in any case. And again: I accept that solid core cable may have some validity in audio systems. Claiming that RG213/U is bad, because it is stranded, misses the point about coaxial cables. Again: A text on transmission theory will explain why the stranded nature of coax cable is irrelevant. 

 

 

Again: Transmission line theory explodes that myth. 

 

Since when has transmission line theory had any meaningful relevance at audio frequencies?

 

[Zaphod Beeblebrox]

2 hours ago, Weka said:

 

 

Since when has transmission line theory had any meaningful relevance at audio frequencies?

 

 

It has meaningful relevance at ALL frequencies above 0Hz. 

 

There is nothing magical about audio frequencies that exempt them from the normal laws of physics.

 

Have you ever wondered why high Voltage transmission lines have a steel core? It's because the skin effect is actually important, when dealing with 50Hz over hundreds of km. The steel is there for strength and the centre of the cable carries very little current over such long distances. Or why high Voltage DC transmission is so effective? Again, linear inductance, which applies to all parallel conductors, does not apply to DC. 

Edited August 21, 2017 by Zaphod Beeblebrox