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Irek

yamaha av receiver rx-v781 + Musica Fidelity m5si

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41 minutes ago, swervyn said:

If so , is 100w per channel not sufficient for HT use with a decent set of speakers?

It's for when all the channels are going at same time the power rating will drop right down,maybe to 40 or 50 watts or something so if you use a power amp for front 2 or even 3 speakers than the rest of the speakers have room to breathe so to speak. I have found even a 75watt power amp for front 2 speakers is beneficial.

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hmm a lot depends on the speakers you are trying to drive, and the actual (not b.s.) power output per channel from an avr.

 

the more channels driven by say the avr yammy 3060 the power drops a fair amount from 5 speakers to 7 speakers.. 50%

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54 minutes ago, swervyn said:

Hi all

 

just to clarify something for me please regarding AVR and pre amps as I am not sure I get the gist.

 

Does this mean people are running an AVR amp with say 5.1 speaker setup, but because the output of the AVR amp may be 100w per channel they are using another amp (the pre amp, maybe 400w total) to separately power say the L & R speakers to get more "grunt"?

 

If so , is 100w per channel not sufficient for HT use with a decent set of speakers?

Svervyn you won't find avr output per channel realistically 100 wpc for lot of avrs. They just typically don't have the power supplies to support. Even if had the power supplies can't squash in heatsinking that be needed to support. One onkyo integrated avr costing $3k or so we worked would manage in reality 25wpc flat out ... nothing left in reserve

 

sone brands like Cambridge audio rotel, nad or arcam they are more conservatively rated giving a proper all channel driven figure and consistent with the power supply to support claims.

 

other brands take all their power claims with a mountain of salt !

 

people use a 2ch integrated with ht bypass with avrs usually as gives power upgrade over avr for movies and mch music. And also a 2ch pre and pwr upgrade for 2ch.

 

even just power wise you'll see 2ch amps with bigger power supplies and heatsinking than avrs with ALL their channels.

 

with mulitchannel power amps people use those as they usually have multiples more in power reserves abd heaps more heat sink area to adequately support Their power claims.

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8 minutes ago, hopefullguy said:

hmm a lot depends on the speakers you are trying to drive, and the actual (not b.s.) power output per channel from an avr.

 

the more channels driven by say the avr yammy 3060 the power drops a fair amount from 5 speakers to 7 speakers.. 50%

Yeah, I'm not sure I get how the manufacturers rating reflects of the actual rating the amp delivers.

 

The RX-A3060 for example lists its specs as :
 

  • 9-Channel powerful surround sound
  • --- 150 W per channel (8 ohms, 20 Hz-20 kHz, 0.06 % THD, 2-ch driven)
  • --- 230 W per channel (8 ohms, 1 kHz, 10 % THD, 1-ch driven)
  • --- 230 W per channel (4 ohms, 1 kHz, 0.9 % THD, 1-ch driven [European Model])

To me, the uninitiated, I read that as I can connect 9 x 8ohm speakers and each will get 150-230w of power delivered to it. (I dont really understand the difference between the first 2 specs)

 

or, does it mean "yeah, you can use 9 channels, but the rated output to each channel will be 1/9th of the 150w??

 

confused sorry

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1 hour ago, swervyn said:

Yeah, I'm not sure I get how the manufacturers rating reflects of the actual rating the amp delivers.

 

The RX-A3060 for example lists its specs as :
 

  • 9-Channel powerful surround sound
  • --- 150 W per channel (8 ohms, 20 Hz-20 kHz, 0.06 % THD, 2-ch driven)
  • --- 230 W per channel (8 ohms, 1 kHz, 10 % THD, 1-ch driven)
  • --- 230 W per channel (4 ohms, 1 kHz, 0.9 % THD, 1-ch driven [European Model])

To me, the uninitiated, I read that as I can connect 9 x 8ohm speakers and each will get 150-230w of power delivered to it. (I dont really understand the difference between the first 2 specs)

 

or, does it mean "yeah, you can use 9 channels, but the rated output to each channel will be 1/9th of the 150w??

 

confused sorry

The maximum power consumption is 490W (per manual). Ignoring the small power consumption in the processing sections and then using typical class A/B efficiency of 70% leaves ~343W, divided by nine channels = 38W / channel when all channels driven equally (albeit most soundtracks will be mostly in the LCR channels).

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1 hour ago, Quark said:

The maximum power consumption is 490W (per manual). Ignoring the small power consumption in the processing sections and then using typical class A/B efficiency of 70% leaves ~343W, divided by nine channels = 38W / channel when all channels driven equally (albeit most soundtracks will be mostly in the LCR channels).

Thanks quark, so the processor can vary the output to each channel depending on the soundtrack? It is not restricted to so many watts per channel depending on how many channels you have connected? If that is the case then in theory the rear channels would not be using much of the output compared to LCR channels as their soundtrack is more background/effects.

 

And the "pre out" connections on the AVR amp are for the purpose of connecting an additional amp to drive the speakers you choose to (depending on the pre out connections available on the AVR amp, my current one has sub only)

 

Sorry, probably sounds simple to most here but I have only ever just used an AVR amp back to pro logic days.

 

3 hours ago, :) al said:

Svervyn you won't find avr output per channel realistically 100 wpc for lot of avrs. They just typically don't have the power supplies to support. Even if had the power supplies can't squash in heatsinking that be needed to support. One onkyo integrated avr costing $3k or so we worked would manage in reality 25wpc flat out ... nothing left in reserve

 

sone brands like Cambridge audio rotel, nad or arcam they are more conservatively rated giving a proper all channel driven figure and consistent with the power supply to support claims.

 

other brands take all their power claims with a mountain of salt !

 

people use a 2ch integrated with ht bypass with avrs usually as gives power upgrade over avr for movies and mch music. And also a 2ch pre and pwr upgrade for 2ch.

 

even just power wise you'll see 2ch amps with bigger power supplies and heatsinking than avrs with ALL their channels.

 

with mulitchannel power amps people use those as they usually have multiples more in power reserves abd heaps more heat sink area to adequately support Their power claims.

Thanks al, starting to get my head around it a bit more, have read more in the last 3 weeks than I have in the last 20 years! serious catching up to do.

 

 

Apologies to the OP, not meaning to hijack your thread but when I see something am unsure of I need to ask!

 

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11 minutes ago, swervyn said:

Thanks quark, so the processor can vary the output to each channel depending on the soundtrack? It is not restricted to so many watts per channel depending on how many channels you have connected? If that is the case then in theory the rear channels would not be using much of the output compared to LCR channels as their soundtrack is more background/effects.

 

And the "pre out" connections on the AVR amp are for the purpose of connecting an additional amp to drive the speakers you choose to (depending on the pre out connections available on the AVR amp, my current one has sub only)

 

Sorry, probably sounds simple to most here but I have only ever just used an AVR amp back to pro logic days.

 

There's usually some extra amplifier capacity in the LCR channels compared to the various surrounds, but at the end of the day the amp's power supply will be a limiting factor when driving all channels.

 

Yes, the pre-outs can be used for an external power amp and these can make a real difference, especially if your speakers aren't so easy to drive.

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On 07/09/2017 at 2:47 PM, swervyn said:

Hi all

 

just to clarify something for me please regarding AVR and pre amps as I am not sure I get the gist.

 

Does this mean people are running an AVR amp with say 5.1 speaker setup, but because the output of the AVR amp may be 100w per channel they are using another amp (the pre amp, maybe 400w total) to separately power say the L & R speakers to get more "grunt"?

 

If so , is 100w per channel not sufficient for HT use with a decent set of speakers?

Hi,

in this post the Yamaha AVR has pre amp out build in ($1100). It means you have the option to add power amplifier. Not every AVR has that feature. I follow the idea of amplification price ration 4:2:1 (speakers, amp, source). In AVR the amplification is worth maybe 50% of the price and than we have to divide it by 7 or more (amount of speakers). So the amplification in $2000 AVR for 2 main speakers is worth something like $500-$700.

Now if you look at ELEKTRA HD2 3 CHANNEL POWER AMPLIFIER $2380 there is non AVR on the market to mach the performance/sound quality. 

What is the difference in sound? First dynamic, the music in movies come to life.

After auditioning few system I strongly support the idea of quality over quantity. I would definitely prefer average AVR + good power amp 3ch + 3 really good spekers + 2 average surround (5.0.0 system) over  good AVR + 9 speakers + 2 subs. (7.2.2 system).

What are your main tower speakers?

Cheers, 

Irek

 

 

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if thinking elektra, I would consider below, basically fully serviced, brought upto spec. there would be NO AVR out there with power stage of this thing, and dont need to weasel out on just 3 channels but spread the goodness across all 7 channels :)

 

comes wiht a brand new face and choice of face plate so will look new in the rack as a bonus :) 

 

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Hmmm now I'm keen on this Yamaha av receiver rx-v781 as my Denon AVR-3805 doesn't have hdmi.

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On 09/09/2017 at 8:32 AM, Irek said:

Hi,

in this post the Yamaha AVR has pre amp out build in ($1100). It means you have the option to add power amplifier. Not every AVR has that feature. I follow the idea of amplification price ration 4:2:1 (speakers, amp, source). In AVR the amplification is worth maybe 50% of the price and than we have to divide it by 7 or more (amount of speakers). So the amplification in $2000 AVR for 2 main speakers is worth something like $500-$700.

Now if you look at ELEKTRA HD2 3 CHANNEL POWER AMPLIFIER $2380 there is non AVR on the market to mach the performance/sound quality. 

What is the difference in sound? First dynamic, the music in movies come to life.

After auditioning few system I strongly support the idea of quality over quantity. I would definitely prefer average AVR + good power amp 3ch + 3 really good spekers + 2 average surround (5.0.0 system) over  good AVR + 9 speakers + 2 subs. (7.2.2 system).

What are your main tower speakers?

Cheers, 

Irek

 

 

All my gear is rather dated, hence looking into the best available options to upgrade. Have been a long time out of the loop!

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On 10/09/2017 at 10:54 AM, swervyn said:

All my gear is rather dated, hence looking into the best available options to upgrade. Have been a long time out of the loop!

It took me 6 months of research before upgrading. I love Focal speakers.

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2 hours ago, Irek said:

It took me 6 months of research before upgrading. I love Focal speakers.

yes, I can see this is going to be a long process

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Well we now have two systems and like Irek have teamed up a Yamaha AVR with a MF integrated for power amp duties. Given we now spend quite a bit of time per month working and living up on the Gold Coast for the sake of sanity we still wanted a good second system up here, as the main system will stay at home in Nelson Bay. After much looking around I purchased a second RXA-3060, this time as a run special price and have teamed it up with the MF M6i. The Yamaha AVR and MF used as a power amp work well together and produce a very nice sound quality.

image.jpeg

Edited by TerryO

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On 12/09/2017 at 5:14 AM, TerryO said:

Well we now have two systems and like Irek have teamed up a Yamaha AVR with a MF integrated for power amp duties. Given we now spend quite a bit of time per month working and living up on the Gold Coast for the sake of sanity we still wanted a good second system up here, as the main system will stay at home in Nelson Bay. After much looking around I purchased a second RXA-3060, this time as a run special price and have teamed it up with the MF M6i. The Yamaha AVR and MF used as a power amp work well together and produce a very nice sound quality.

image.jpeg

Looks great.

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