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4 hours ago, powerav said:

Good point this and this is where it can get weird, I mostly watch 5.1 music concerts and listen to surround sacd and bluray audio. With Audyssey on but bypassing the front L/R speakers it sounds superb, haven't heard anything better. So yes if it can produce superb results with 5.1 DTS MA music then why can't they do 2 channel just as good?

Cannot comment on Audyssey for music.  ARC (Anthem Room Correction) is superb for 5.1 music,  good for 2.0 music but cannot match dedicated stereo equipment.

 

Good stereo equipment reduces jitter, has low noise power supply giving the 2.0 music transparency, wide sound stage, depth.  An AVR playing 5.1 music has the sound stage all round.  It does not need as much  subtlety to produce depth.  An AVR is not designed  to play 2.0 to the same level of detail (even if it has the same DAC as the stereo equipment).  It is likely to have more jitter, a higher noise level.

 

 

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Cannot comment on Audyssey for music.  ARC (Anthem Room Correction) is superb for 5.1 music,  good for 2.0 music but cannot match dedicated stereo equipment.
 
Good stereo equipment reduces jitter, has low noise power supply giving the 2.0 music transparency, wide sound stage, depth.  An AVR playing 5.1 music has the sound stage all round.  It does not need as much  subtlety to produce depth.  An AVR is not designed  to play 2.0 to the same level of detail (even if it has the same DAC as the stereo equipment).  It is likely to have more jitter, a higher noise level.
 
 

Get the point re AV hardware. Are you also saying that ARC Eq isn't well suited to stereo; I.e, that the targets etc are defined specifically for multichannel?

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12 minutes ago, zydeco said:


Get the point re AV hardware. Are you also saying that ARC Eq isn't well suited to stereo; I.e, that the targets etc are defined specifically for multichannel?

 

zydeco what will likely find is that makers target curves, I cannot comment on ARCs however with audyssey you can read below direct from the guy who conceived it, Chris K.

 

https://audyssey.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/212347723-MultEQ-Target-Curves

 

"Contrary to popular belief, a target curve that is flat from 20 Hz to 20 kHz is not always the one that will produce the correct sound. There are several reasons for this including the fact that loudspeakers are much more directional at high frequencies than they are at low frequencies. This means that the balance of direct and room sound is very different at the high and low ends of the frequency spectrum.

 

The Audyssey Reference target curve setting (also called Movie in some products) makes the appropriate correction at high frequencies to alleviate this problem. A slight roll-off is introduced that restores the balance between direct and reflected sound.

 

The Audyssey Flat setting (also called Music in some products) uses the MultEQ filters in the same way as the Audyssey curve, but it does not apply a high frequency roll-off. This setting is appropriate for very small or highly treated rooms in which the listener is seated quite close to the loudspeakers. It is also recommended for all rooms when the receiver is in THX processing mode. This allows THX re-equalization to operate exactly as it was intended.

 

Some manufacturers have decided to implement a Bypass L/R (or Front) setting.  This uses the MultEQ filters that were calculated for the entire listening area, but it does not apply any filtering to the front left and right loudspeakers. The average measured response from the front left and right loudspeakers is used as the target curve for the remaining loudspeakers in the system. The subwoofer in this case is equalized to flat as is the case for all the settings described above.  This is not a setting recommended by Audyssey.

In some products, there is a Manual EQ setting. This is a traditional parametric equalizer that does not use the MultEQ filters or the Audyssey measurement process at all."

 

as he also says,

 

"There is no standard music target curve as there is for film content.  We recommend starting with the Audyssey curve, but also trying the Flat curve.  In a small room Flat could work better for some types of music."

 

so yes for music... and am not talking about movies with music content am talking about stereo stuff not expecting a cinema eq curve audyssey has the flat setting you might try. there are other things e.g. dynamic Eq and dynamic volume as well which effect you might not appreciate for music. similarly many might remove audyssey completely from equation for 2ch stereo given they dont appreciate at all what it does for that music source. that is your choice and most makers I would suspect give you this flexibility. 

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21 hours ago, Satanica said:

 

So when there's music in a movie soundtrack which is a large portion of the time, your HT system must sound sub-optimal using Audyssey that's calibrated for movies. Pity, you won't be hearing Beauty And The Beast in all it's glory :unsure::D

 

What do you mean here are the results of Audyssey Pro? Are they the before and after measurements?

 

Well not really. There are defined curves and playback volumes etc that are standards for movies like Dolby and DTS, so sound engineers know what they are dealing with. There is no standard for music.

 

And yes, they are my before and after plots

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1 hour ago, zydeco said:


Get the point re AV hardware. Are you also saying that ARC Eq isn't well suited to stereo; I.e, that the targets etc are defined specifically for multichannel?

Stereo with ARC is definitely better than without. If someone is after a one box solution for movies and stereo, split evenly, would recommend Anthem and ARC.

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1 hour ago, blybo said:

 

Well not really. There are defined curves and playback volumes etc that are standards for movies like Dolby and DTS, so sound engineers know what they are dealing with. There is no standard for music.

 

And yes, they are my before and after plots

 

I thought a flat curve was the standard for movies and music, at least unofficially anyway. The way I see it, if you don't at least somewhat EQ bass wobbles out you'll be more compromised for 2ch music than not. 

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10 minutes ago, Satanica said:

The way I see it, if you don't at least somewhat EQ bass wobbles out you'll be more compromised for 2ch music than not. 

Agree. In non dedicated rooms, loss of bass is the biggest problem and getting this right goes a long way to making good stereo.  

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51 minutes ago, Satanica said:

 

I thought a flat curve was the standard for movies and music, at least unofficially anyway. The way I see it, if you don't at least somewhat EQ bass wobbles out you'll be more compromised for 2ch music than not. 

 

35 minutes ago, Snoopy8 said:

Agree. In non dedicated rooms, loss of bass is the biggest problem and getting this right goes a long way to making good stereo.  

 

Yes, my focus re EQ is getting bass (<250Hz) sorted but I'd understood that most AVR / pre-pro set-ups didn't allow one to specify the specific frequency range over which EQ is applied?

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Just now, zydeco said:

Yes, my focus re EQ is getting bass (<250Hz) sorted but I'd understood that most AVR / pre-pro set-ups didn't allow one to specify the specific frequency range over which EQ is applied?

You cannot, and do not want to, do that in ARC. EQ can only do so much for the bass.

 

Biggest problem is room modes. ARC, Audyssey, Dirac, YPAO etc cannot correct for bass room modes. Ideally, treat rooms first. And then use 2 or more subs.  There are also anti mode software and hardware as well.

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You cannot, and do not want to, do that in ARC. EQ can only do so much for the bass.
 
Biggest problem is room modes. ARC, Audyssey, Dirac, YPAO etc cannot correct for bass room modes. Ideally, treat rooms first. And then use 2 or more subs.  There are also anti mode software and hardware as well.


A bit confused. I get that bass issues are largely from room modes and have setup multiple subwoofers to smooth response (using mini-DSP to Eq & align individual subwoofers). The hope was that overall EQ would deal with remaining peaks in the bass region as well as a slight rise in volume from 250 to 20Hz as per a bunch of target curves. Are you saying that ARC et al don't generate filters to address peaks?

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3 minutes ago, zydeco said:

 

 

Yes, my focus re EQ is getting bass (<250Hz) sorted but I'd understood that most AVR / pre-pro set-ups didn't allow one to specify the specific frequency range over which EQ is applied?

 

Yeah, I've always thought Audyssey or it's competitors would be a better if you could limit their frequency range. 

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30 minutes ago, zydeco said:

 


A bit confused. I get that bass issues are largely from room modes and have setup multiple subwoofers to smooth response (using mini-DSP to Eq & align individual subwoofers). The hope was that overall EQ would deal with remaining peaks in the bass region as well as a slight rise in volume from 250 to 20Hz as per a bunch of target curves. Are you saying that ARC et al don't generate filters to address peaks?

 

 

you are getting confused, for movies and cinema content the av processing and eq we are talking about here are aiming for a target reference curve, can read a bit about history here, that requires eq way beyond the 250-20hz range

 

http://hometheaterhifi.com/volume_9_2/feature-article-curves-6-2002.html

 

and yes as per snoopy eq cannot fix a room, if you have room issues and issues due to placement you need to fix those first anything else will be a bandaid. nomarly eq systems will do the best they can, they'll do some smoothing but they cant fix things like nulls. can reduce some peaks but room issues often create way beyond what eq can practically without some massive issues. e.g. doing massive boosts and then massive cuts for big peaks can result in a sound that results in something sounding flat, similarly massive boosts will result in loss of dynamic range wiht headroom removed.

 

you can expect some minor miracles but you cant expect a major transformation. and again eq systems we are talking about here are primarily for things missed in with the cinema reference target curve in mind. wiht some options to handle other material.

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To add to @:) al answers, EQ should be the 3rd thing to do, after room room treatment and placement of sub(s). 

 

In my own example, was limited to soft furnishings in open plan family room. ARC did a good job of compensating for it but bass came back after second sub was added and multi sub optimisation was run. 

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4 minutes ago, Snoopy8 said:

To add to @:) al answers, EQ should be the 3rd thing to do, after room room treatment and placement of sub(s). 

 

yes absolutely THE last thing. as its a finishing touch...finesse... not a cure all some think it will be. if using as a cure all you will have nasty side effects pretty much guaranteed.

5 minutes ago, Snoopy8 said:

In my own example, was limited to soft furnishings in open plan family room. ARC did a good job of compensating for it but bass came back after second sub was added and multi sub optimisation was run. 

 

certainly mine is pretty homely surrounds but that doesnt stop in doing best can with placement with speaker positions and main listening position. this is number one. and there is certainly a lot can be done in homely surrounds to treat a room with your typical furnishings. and if can use dedicated room treatments all the better. but its only once made best of things should eq then be the last thing in the equation :) 

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1 hour ago, :) al said:

 

you are getting confused, for movies and cinema content the av processing and eq we are talking about here are aiming for a target reference curve, can read a bit about history here, that requires eq way beyond the 250-20hz range

 

http://hometheaterhifi.com/volume_9_2/feature-article-curves-6-2002.html

 

and yes as per snoopy eq cannot fix a room, if you have room issues and issues due to placement you need to fix those first anything else will be a bandaid. nomarly eq systems will do the best they can, they'll do some smoothing but they cant fix things like nulls. can reduce some peaks but room issues often create way beyond what eq can practically without some massive issues. e.g. doing massive boosts and then massive cuts for big peaks can result in a sound that results in something sounding flat, similarly massive boosts will result in loss of dynamic range wiht headroom removed.

 

you can expect some minor miracles but you cant expect a major transformation. and again eq systems we are talking about here are primarily for things missed in with the cinema reference target curve in mind. wiht some options to handle other material.

 

Got it. The piece of the puzzle that I didn't understand was the Home Theatre specific X-curve (as opposed to the B&K curve often touted for stereo). Agree with the remainder of the points. 

 

56 minutes ago, Snoopy8 said:

To add to @:) al answers, EQ should be the 3rd thing to do, after room room treatment and placement of sub(s). 

 

In my own example, was limited to soft furnishings in open plan family room. ARC did a good job of compensating for it but bass came back after second sub was added and multi sub optimisation was run. 

Agreed. My two channel set-up has floor to ceiling bass traps in the front corners and subs at front / back to deal with the axial mode. I have, though, found it valuable to use EQ to cuts a couple of peaks. 

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37 minutes ago, zydeco said:

Agreed. My two channel set-up has floor to ceiling bass traps in the front corners and subs at front / back to deal with the axial mode. I have, though, found it valuable to use EQ to cuts a couple of peaks. 

I think you have answered your own question. EQ is useful after room treatment and subs.  

 

For my room, after fixing bass, saw little value in EQ (was also investigating Dirac) for stereo and $ went to updated components.  :D

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I have had it with Audyssey, may be ok with movies but it strangles the life out of music concerts and I'm sick of fiddling with it or turning it off and on.

If you need the pro kit then you must have your home theatre set up in a bathroom or something.

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It can be a bit hit and miss but I don't mind it in Bypass L/R mode for music concerts. I'm getting used to the settings now and prefer the Denon 4300 over the Nad T757 even more now.

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7 minutes ago, Dokken said:

It can be a bit hit and miss but I don't mind it in Bypass L/R mode for music concerts. I'm getting used to the settings now and prefer the Denon 4300 over the Nad T757 even more now.

I was enjoying in bypass mode but I tried a classic Eagles When Hell Freezes Over and Don Henley's voice was distorted in the centre channel, turned Audyssey off and it was clear as a bell. 

I'm selling the Denon now.:thumb:

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What are you replacing it with???...ha ha ha 

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Opps what have I done, sold the Denon and bought a Primare i32!

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How does it compare to the Denon 4300?

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7 hours ago, Dokken said:

How does it compare to the Denon 4300?

Not sure yet as I haven't received it, the Denon sold by complete surprise as I put it on Gumtree and was sold with no haggling and for a small profit. I am of the opinion and this comes with ALOT of experience in the last 2 years and many here also believe the same thing that unless you are going to get the flagship model AVR's then don't expect great things form 2 channel audio.

 

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After all the raving on about how great this avr was you sold it for an i32?! 

so no av receiver any more ?

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Each to their own but I like the Denon 4300. Am sure there are better AV Receivers but for the price I got it I'm not complaining. As I mentioned previously it betters my Nad T757 in all respects!

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