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1 minute ago, powerav said:

 

Yeah I've been told an intergrated will be equal to an AVR of double the value. So I'd be up for min 2k. Really I'd want to upgrade, not side step. 

 

I don't know about that, the Creek Evo 2 I have is better than the Integra 80.3 pre I had, I first thought that this Denon was better but in doing a lot more testing today it's not, the Evo still wins especially with 16bit 44.1 stuff. When I first get a new product I always play hires stuff first but I have realised that sounds good with just about anything, I will have to test with 16bit from now.

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6 minutes ago, metalheadz said:

Adding a dac to the AVR kind of defeats the purpose of a one box solution, especially if you're using the built in streamer. But I might look out for one in the classifieds.

An AVR is a workhorse which has to do so many things across many channels, so cannot expect AVR to have a superb stereo.  To find out what good stereo sounds like, get a good DAC. Have a look at Gieseler Klein (see owners reviews here).

 

25 minutes ago, metalheadz said:

Snoopy, fantastic system you have there. I was eye off the SGR bookshelves many years ago. I like the idea of active speakers and just upgrading to a mid tier AVR every few years.

Funnily enough I nearly went with an SVS sb13 and a seperate dsp for bass management too. I over indulged and got an 18" sub from Funk Audio with a pretty powerful built in DSP.

Very convenient having 2 dsp settings you can switch easily. Not so easy for me.

 

Curious to know what mic you used for EQ with MSO. I was about to going down the REW path but yeah got divorced haha everything has been in storage for 4 years .

 

Delighted with the CX3Bs and SVS subs.  Probably did not use the full potential of the CX3Bs for stereo until recently.  Used a Dayton Audio UMM-6 with REW.  MSO was the "silver bullet" which overcame the bass issues.

 

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52 minutes ago, Snoopy8 said:

Have a look at Gieseler Klein

I had one but sold it because the same DAC is in a lot of mid to high end AVR's.

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What's was the RRP of your creek evo though? So what you're saying is hi res between the creek and Denon is too close to worry about?

 

Cheers for the GKlien recommendation, I'm guessing this is what brought your SGR's to life for stereo. Adding a DAC to AVR, you'd still need a seperate source input to the DAC then AVR for amplification. You'd suggest this is a better option that a stand alone streamer into an intergrated amp ?

 

I'm a simpleton, I'd end up using the built in streamer in the AVR. Or The dac in the bluesound node.

My speakers probably need an upgrade before I go to those lengths

 

Hmm cool, and the mic works with MSO too? Would be handy if the supplied Anthem mic could be used.

 

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8 minutes ago, metalheadz said:

 

What's was the RRP of your creek evo though? So what you're saying is hi res between the creek and Denon is too close to worry about?

 

I think the RRP of the Creek may have been close to $2000 when released, it's a superseded model now so I got it for $750. Yeah some of my best hi res stuff is extremely close, it's the standard red book stuff that can come across a bit harsh with the AVR's.

 

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22 minutes ago, powerav said:

I had one but sold it because the same DAC is in a lot of mid to high end AVR's.

A dedicated stereo DAC which is built well and has a quiet power supply will out perform the AVR with the same DAC chip.  This simply because the AVR needs to do a lot more things with more complicated circuitry.

 

15 minutes ago, metalheadz said:

Cheers for the GKlien recommendation, I'm guessing this is what brought your SGR's to life for stereo. Adding a DAC to AVR, you'd still need a seperate source input to the DAC then AVR for amplification. You'd suggest this is a better option that a stand alone streamer into an intergrated amp ?

Not using a Klein, have an Audiolab 8200CDQ for a long time.  What brought the SGRs to full potential for stereo were firstly MSO+2nd sub, then adding a SOTM SMS-200 network player plus an audio usb cable.  Good standalone streamers are not cheap. Cheapest is to use an existing PC to feed standalone DAC to integrated stereo amp.  However, the SMS-200 (thread here) is a very cost effective leap up.  Goes back to how much you are prepared to spend to get very good stereo.  The Klein + SMS-200 will set you back $1,500.  For a stereo focused person like me, that is good value but there is lots of room to disagree,

 

45 minutes ago, metalheadz said:

I'm a simpleton, I'd end up using the built in streamer in the AVR. Or The dac in the bluesound node.

My speakers probably need an upgrade before I go to those lengths

Have always gone speaker upgrade first before doing anything else. 

 

55 minutes ago, metalheadz said:

Hmm cool, and the mic works with MSO too? Would be handy if the supplied Anthem mic could be used.

MSO uses REW measurements taken with UMM-6.  Sore point :unsure: , Anthem's perfectly good calibrated mic cannot be used for anything else...  

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16 minutes ago, Snoopy8 said:

Good standalone streamers are not cheap.

I disagree, I have a raspberry Pi 3 and boss dac, that is way better than a Aries Mini with linear power supply and that was about 4 times the price.

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Yeah I'm really out of my depth here lol

Edited by metalheadz

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14 hours ago, metalheadz said:

Yeah I'm really out of my depth here lol

 

I think you just need to understand just because 1 member has had a less than ideal experience, it may not be the equipment at fault. Indeed the Integra Powerav mentioned was great for me and quite a few over on DTV forums, but it is a REALLY complicated machine to set up compared to say a Marantz or Denon, but primarily as they were designed for professional installers so were highly configurable, whereas most AVRs are made mostly fool proof.

 

I found the Marantz quite limited in settings after being used to Integra, perhaps comparable to Windows OS and Mac, the Mac works by limiting what you can configure, but some find that frustrating so perfer Windows, despite being harder to get to run reliably.

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17 hours ago, powerav said:

I had one but sold it because the same DAC is in a lot of mid to high end AVR's.

Interested in why you sold the Klein; you were quite happy with it initially

 

15 hours ago, powerav said:

I disagree, I have a raspberry Pi 3 and boss dac, that is way better than a Aries Mini with linear power supply and that was about 4 times the price.

Noted...

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15 hours ago, powerav said:

I disagree, I have a raspberry Pi 3 and boss dac, that is way better than a Aries Mini with linear power supply and that was about 4 times the price.

 

Yet your still selling it and have already sold the Aries I believe. Since you have been a member it seems the Creek Integrated is the only device you have bought that wasn't up for sale again within a month or 2 of purchase.

 

Retailers wet dream you are :thumb:

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1 hour ago, Snoopy8 said:

nterested in why you sold the Klein; you were quite happy with it initially

Who knows on that one, was probably my biggest regret sale but I was trying to fund something else at the time. I made a stereonet member very happy that purchased it so all good. I am very excited though now about all the different DAC options for the RPI 3 including the Sabre ES2093.

1 hour ago, blybo said:

Yet your still selling it and have already sold the Aries I believe

Was hard to resist that Easter sale A2A had, the promise of full Android support never happened and I am not an Apple person, was a great product though. Once again another prominent Stereonet member is very happy.

1 hour ago, blybo said:

Creek Integrated is the only device you have bought that wasn't up for sale again within a month or 2 of purchase.

Don't speak too soon, it actually was for sale but I took it off after a came back on Holidays and realised how good it was, still a PITA to use though as the remote control can't even turn it on or off. If I did sell I would get the Creek Destiny or the new 100A, maybe next year at tax time.

1 hour ago, blybo said:

Retailers wet dream you are

Not really I only buy retail when I get my tax return back, I don't spend a cent during the year, it's all sell and buy, refurb or demo stuff. I'm not a high flying corporate dude, just a simple hard working man with a plan.:)

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For those with 2 subs you have to get best of Chicago on bluray audio and the first track 25 Or 6 to 4 will blow your socks off.

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http://www.audioholics.com/editorials/denon-marantz-audyssey-multeq-editor-app

"We have always had reservations about Room EQ especially above the room transition frequency (300Hz to 500Hz) that makes it very difficult for auto-EQ systems to be effective and not cause more harm than good."

This backs up my issues with Audyssey, I will have the give the app ago.

 

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5 hours ago, powerav said:

http://www.audioholics.com/editorials/denon-marantz-audyssey-multeq-editor-app

"We have always had reservations about Room EQ especially above the room transition frequency (300Hz to 500Hz) that makes it very difficult for auto-EQ systems to be effective and not cause more harm than good."

This backs up my issues with Audyssey, I will have the give the app ago.

 

You had Audyssey pro in your last processor yet didn't use it. This app is a dumbed down version of what pro is capable of from what I can see.

 

the big thing to remember, is that Audyssey is not a music calibration system, it is for movies. Some manufacturers put a music curve in their devices to take advantage of the smoothing of in room response, but that does not mean you will like the curve. I always listened to music through my HT system in pure direct mode, as it turned off all the processing the receiver did. My 2ch system still kills it even though the ht gear is worth far more.

 

Here are the results of Audyssey pro in my room

Neil B Calibration results Marantz 7702Mk2 2017-07-02.png

Edited by blybo

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On 27/07/2017 at 8:03 PM, powerav said:

I had one but sold it because the same DAC is in a lot of mid to high end AVR's.

 

Like selling a Lotus Exige because the engine is in a lot of mid to low end Toyotas. It is implementation that counts.

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10 minutes ago, blybo said:

You had Audyssey pro in your last processor yet didn't use it. This app is a dumbed down version of what pro is capable of from what I can see.

 

the big thing to remember, is that Audyssey is not a music calibration system, it is for movies. Some manufacturers put a music curve in their devices to take advantage of the smoothing of in room response, but that does not mean you will like the curve. I always listened to music through my HT system in pure direct mode, as it turned off all the processing the receiver did. My 2ch system still kills it even though the ht gear is worth far more.

 

Pure direct sounds so much better on my receiver, just a pitty it bypasses the subwoofer. 

 

Listening to a few tunes last night, I'm definitely looking out for a sold intergrated amp with HT bypass. I could be wrong but I feel this will delivery better SQ than adding a power amp behind an AVR.

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Pure direct sounds so much better on my receiver, just a pitty it bypasses the subwoofer. 
 
Listening to a few tunes last night, I'm definitely looking out for a sold intergrated amp with HT bypass. I could be wrong but I feel this will delivery better SQ than adding a power amp behind an AVR.

There is a Primare i22 with inbuilt dac in the classifieds ATM. It is only moderately powered but I still think it would give improvements, just not sure if it has HT bypass.

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Some ramblings:

  • Opinions differ - taste differ, thats why we have Yamaha, Denon, Onkyo, etc. etc.
  • What is inside the piece of equipment makes a difference, e.g quanity of amps/transformers/technology
  • Wishes/needs differ - thats why we have the different brands
  • An AVR cannot beat a 2 channel amp for the same price - it is a simple a case of economics
  • Buying used gets you a lot better value for money
  • 5.1/7.1 , Atmos - there is a lot of difference there - what do you want/need
  • Wishing to keep up with the latest technology will cost more
  • Speakers used will make a difference
  • Subs will make a difference
  • Type of music will make a difference
  • Room will influence the sound
  • Types of disks/downloads for movies and music will make a difference

And forget about the dac chip used - it is not important, the implementation is.

 

There is no single solution that will keep all of us happy - we are all on a journey to find the best/cheapest solution for our individual circumstances. For some the journey ends - for others it does not.

 

Does not matter - just enjoy it

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6 hours ago, blybo said:

You had Audyssey pro in your last processor yet didn't use it. This app is a dumbed down version of what pro is capable of from what I can see.

 

the big thing to remember, is that Audyssey is not a music calibration system, it is for movies. Some manufacturers put a music curve in their devices to take advantage of the smoothing of in room response, but that does not mean you will like the curve. I always listened to music through my HT system in pure direct mode, as it turned off all the processing the receiver did. My 2ch system still kills it even though the ht gear is worth far more.

 

Here are the results of Audyssey pro in my room

Neil B Calibration results Marantz 7702Mk2 2017-07-02.png

 

So when there's music in a movie soundtrack which is a large portion of the time, your HT system must sound sub-optimal using Audyssey that's calibrated for movies. Pity, you won't be hearing Beauty And The Beast in all it's glory :unsure::D

 

What do you mean here are the results of Audyssey Pro? Are they the before and after measurements?

Edited by Satanica

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2 hours ago, Satanica said:

So when there's music in a movie soundtrack which is a large portion of the time, your HT system must sound sub-optimal using Audyssey that calibrated for movies.

Good point this and this is where it can get weird, I mostly watch 5.1 music concerts and listen to surround sacd and bluray audio. With Audyssey on but bypassing the front L/R speakers it sounds superb, haven't heard anything better. So yes if it can produce superb results with 5.1 DTS MA music then why can't they do 2 channel just as good?

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3 hours ago, blybo said:

 

Neil B Calibration results Marantz 7702Mk2 2017-07-02.png

 

Thats really impressive result. Is that an auto EQ? It's so flat i find it hard to believe an auto EQ can do that.

 

I've never understood why a well calibrated home theatre set up won't sound as good as in pure direct mode. Surely a flat frequency response is was we're looking for in terms of reproducing the same sound as was mixed and mastered in th studio.

 

Same applies for active studio monitors, if they're made for mixing and to produce the most accurate,  neutral sound possible why aren't they used as hifi speakers ?!

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4 hours ago, blybo said:


There is a Primare i22 with inbuilt dac in the classifieds ATM. It is only moderately powered but I still think it would give improvements, just not sure if it has HT bypass.

Yeah I did spot this, Primare are about to drop a new line of intergrated amps. I think the i22 might be a bit light for me to see a significant enough improvement. 

 

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3 hours ago, powerav said:

Good point this and this is where it can get weird, I mostly watch 5.1 music concerts and listen to surround sacd and bluray audio. With Audyssey on but bypassing the front L/R speakers it sounds superb, haven't heard anything better. So yes if it can produce superb results with 5.1 DTS MA music then why can't they do 2 channel just as good?

 

Here's what you could try and report back on. Set your processor to use the mains and subwoofer(s) and then try listening to DTS MA music so the multi-channel track will be down mixed to 2.1. How good/bad it sound?

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4 hours ago, metalheadz said:

 

Thats really impressive result. Is that an auto EQ? It's so flat i find it hard to believe an auto EQ can do that.

 

I've never understood why a well calibrated home theatre set up won't sound as good as in pure direct mode. Surely a flat frequency response is was we're looking for in terms of reproducing the same sound as was mixed and mastered in th studio.

 

Same applies for active studio monitors, if they're made for mixing and to produce the most accurate,  neutral sound possible why aren't they used as hifi speakers ?!

 

8 hours ago, blybo said:

You had Audyssey pro in your last processor yet didn't use it. This app is a dumbed down version of what pro is capable of from what I can see.

 

the big thing to remember, is that Audyssey is not a music calibration system, it is for movies. Some manufacturers put a music curve in their devices to take advantage of the smoothing of in room response, but that does not mean you will like the curve. I always listened to music through my HT system in pure direct mode, as it turned off all the processing the receiver did. My 2ch system still kills it even though the ht gear is worth far more.

 

Here are the results of Audyssey pro in my room

Neil B Calibration results Marantz 7702Mk2 2017-07-02.png

 

Is that produced from using the Audussey app on android / apple?

Edited by digitalhome

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