XLR cables?

[gat474]

I've never been one to worry too much about cables but I'm not blind to the fact that they may be differences between cables.   I'm looking at getting some new XLR cables to go between my pre amp and my active speakers.  The speakers are ATC's so not laid back in their presentation.   I'm looking for something that is on the darker or laid back side rather than something that provides a brighter presentation.   My current cables are a bit of a mix and match but I can't tell what brand they are, they look like studio XLR's so nothing special.

 

I'm not looking to spend a whole lot and have been directed towards Canare L-4ES6 and some Neutrik NC3MXX XLR plugs.  Cables in the lengths I required would set me about about $80 or so.  I note that the Canare cable is microphone cable but assume that this will be okay.   Any opinions on this cable or any opinions on XLR cables at all?  I need one 2 mt length plus one 5 mt length.

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest Misterioso]

Look no further than here. Sommer Cable Carbokab 225, the top microphone cable from the German company Sommer Cable. I run two pair of active speakers from my preamp. Both are connected by Carbokab 225, 17m in total. Fits your budget and requirements. Cannot recommend these highly enough. I only use Sommer Cable (Carbokab and Epilogue) interconnects in my system and have sold everything else. These are a best buy if there ever was one. By the way, the linked seller is excellent. I bought all my Carbokab cables from him, he has very good prices.

[Black Orange]

I have been using Mogami cables with Neutrik connectors for a few years and been very happy with them. Similar price to Canare. 

The presentation of is like what you are looking for and not bright. 

[bzr]

12 hours ago, Black Orange said:

I have been using Mogami cables with Neutrik connectors for a few years and been very happy with them. Similar price to Canare. 

The presentation of is like what you are looking for and not bright. 

Very good cable.

[BATMAQN]

https://www.swamp.net.au/cables/digital-cables/aes-ebu-cables/

 

I've been getting my XLR's from these guys for years don't be fooled by the prices these are good cables they deal mostly for pro audio setups.

[PleasantSounds]

On 7/24/2017 at 8:15 PM, BATMAQN said:

https://www.swamp.net.au/cables/digital-cables/aes-ebu-cables/

 

I've been getting my XLR's from these guys for years don't be fooled by the prices these are good cables they deal mostly for pro audio setups.

 

I've been using them too and really see no reason to spend more. Very good cables and connectors, great workmanship and service.

 

[betty boop]

On 23/07/2017 at 8:44 PM, Monitor said:

Look no further than here. Sommer Cable Carbokab 225, the top microphone cable from the German company Sommer Cable. I run two pair of active speakers from my preamp. Both are connected by Carbokab 225, 17m in total. Fits your budget and requirements. Cannot recommend these highly enough. I only use Sommer Cable (Carbokab and Epilogue) interconnects in my system and have sold everything else. These are a best buy if there ever was one. By the way, the linked seller is excellent. I bought all my Carbokab cables from him, he has very good prices.

 

Agree 100% and designcable in uk are tops and use good neutrik golds to terminate.prompt and excellent service 

[Addicted to music]

I agree with @:) al

[Addicted to music]

@Monitor

 

have you compared the Van Damme to the Carbokab 225 or the Epilogue?  

[Guest Misterioso]

No, never tried VD. I use Epilogue as well between sources and pre. Never tried to exchange Epilogue and Carbokab, completely different length (0.5m vs 4m).

Edited July 26, 2017 by Misterioso

[BATMAQN]

No problem about any of these suggestions it's good to hear about different options and people's experiences with them. 

[A9X]

On 7/23/2017 at 8:31 PM, gat474 said:

I'm not looking to spend a whole lot and have been directed towards Canare L-4ES6 and some Neutrik NC3MXX XLR plugs.  Cables in the lengths I required would set me about about $80 or so.  I note that the Canare cable is microphone cable but assume that this will be okay.   Any opinions on this cable or any opinions on XLR cables at all?  I need one 2 mt length plus one 5 mt length.

Both components are excellent, tough and reliable; I'd hate to think how many kms of the Canare and how many Neutriks I've used over the years. The equivalent Mogami and Belden stuff is the same.

 

Mic cable is fine, and most balanced cable is generically called mic cable..

 

If you have XLT connection capability, use it, but I'd never spend more to get balanced to use in a domestic environment. Because it adds no benefit. As Bill Whitlock outlines in the papers on the Jensen Transformers site, most designs, even really expensive units I've seen use the most basic transmitters and receivers, and these are what make the difference.

 

Buy two cables the same length. Not for sonic reasons but in case you change the layout of the room. It may save you buying another later and the $ difference between 2 and 5m is likely only a few % more.

 

Try Blue Jeans Cable and there are also several local manufacturers on ebay.

Edited July 27, 2017 by A9X

[Guest Misterioso]

10 minutes ago, A9X said:

Buy two cables the same length. Not for sonic reasons but in case you change the layout of the room. It may save you buying another later and the $ difference between 2 and 5m is likely only a few % more.

Not to mention resale value.

[frankn]

 

1 hour ago, A9X said:

Both components are excellent, tough and reliable; I'd hate to think how many kms of the Canare and how many Neutriks I've used over the years. The equivalent Mogami and Belden stuff is the same.

 

Mic cable is fine, and most balanced cable is generically called mic cable..

 

If you have XLT connection capability, use it, but I'd never spend more to get balanced to use in a domestic environment. Because it adds no benefit. As Bill Whitlock outlines in the papers on the Jensen Transformers site, most designs, even really expensive units I've seen use the most basic transmitters and receivers, and these are what make the difference.

 

Buy two cables the same length. Not for sonic reasons but in case you change the layout of the room. It may save you buying another later and the $ difference between 2 and 5m is likely only a few % more.

 

Try Blue Jeans Cable and there are also several local manufacturers on ebay.

Actually  started reading a class/presentation of Bill's (thank you) and  I believe Bill Whitlock does encourage the use of XLR/Balanced outputs and connections as published in this presentation; Bill Whitlock  - refer to Slide 55 onwards. 

[A9X]

I just checked the JT site and it has been reconfigured and many of the papers removed. Bill was heavily involved with a new receiver topology and wrote a paper explaining it and how good CMRR figure are acheived with active stages. That was what I was referring to. If I have it saved on the server (I know it's on PC1, but that is down for repairs ATM), I'll post it. The topology is used in the THAT1200 series units.

 

I've had a huge number of pieces of gear across my bench over the years, and almost all have used the topology pictured below. It's junk. At best you'll get a 60dB CMRR over a narrowish bandwidth which is hardly worth the effort. Also having run long lengths of unbalanced cables in very (electrically) noisy environments with no audible noise pickup, in the relatively quiet domestic environment with generally short runs, it adds no tangible benefit almost all the time.

 

Like I said, if you have it use it, but between say 2 devices in the same rack it adds nothing. Don't let it be the deciding factor between two similar units if selecting gear.

 

PS: Glad you found the site interesting. If you ever see anything posted by Bill, Bob Carver, Bob Cordell, Walt Jung and Douglas Self (amongst others) on audio, read it. You'll probably get some insights into electronics. Mogan Jones' Valve Amplifiers is also great, because before it gets to tube amp designs, it explains electronic basics in a very accessible way for even a novice.

[frankn]

Personally if I think the equipment manufacturer has gone to the effort building a differential balanced signal path and provided balanced outputs I'll use them over SE.  Not all companies go to this length though, but some do.   

[A9X]

5 hours ago, frankn said:

Personally if I think the equipment manufacturer has gone to the effort building a differential balanced signal path and provided balanced outputs I'll use them over SE.  Not all companies go to this length though, but some do.   

Effort? Usually it's one extra 2c resistor and a different socket.

[frankn]

Nice to know they are keeping costs down then.  I'm happy with XLRs. 

[Addicted to music]

@A9X

 

I agree and fully understand what you are say.  Most consumer grade electronics are designed single ended. The balance is mainly unity gain operational amplifiers. And it shouldn't make a difference in home application.

 

Butt, because all my equipment have XLR support, I decided one day to buy a 5mtr set of XLR cable that was on special at Altronics just to ensure that all the XLR worked.  If it wasn't on special I probably wouldn't even go this route.  The 5mtr set was heavily discounted so I paid something like $15.00 a set.  Once I tested this between the Preamp to power amp, the difference wasn't believable, so the XLR remained as the preferred cable.  The RCA I had cost 5X what I paid for the this cheap XLR!  This is why I preferred the XLR.  And from then onwards I decided that all future purchase must have XLR.  Just remember also that nearly all DAC chips I come across are all Configured XLR, the SE requires an extra unity gain summing opamp so it's an extra stage for the SE. 

 

 

[PositivelyMusicallyGeared]

XLR is a very effective means in a noisy environment, which a home environment normally is.  I wish all devices offered that functionality. 

[A9X]

2 hours ago, Addicted to music said:

@A9X

 

I agree and fully understand what you are say.  Most consumer grade electronics are designed single ended.

 

Just remember also that nearly all DAC chips I come across are all Configured XLR, the SE requires an extra unity gain summing opamp so it's an extra stage for the SE. 

 

 

Apart from the receiver and transmitter almost all amplifiers, pre and power are single ended, so adding balanced adds an extra stage  or two.

Edited July 27, 2017 by A9X
spelling

[A9X]

1 hour ago, PositivelyMusicallyGeared said:

XLR is a very effective means in a noisy environment, which a home environment normally is.

A domestic environment is electrically very quiet. Try something really noisy like a PA gig or OB.

[Addicted to music]

7 minutes ago, A9X said:

A domestic environment is electrically very quiet. Try something really noisy like a PA gig or OB.

 

Yes done that, I wear ear protection...

[betty boop]

1 hour ago, A9X said:

A domestic environment is electrically very quiet. Try something really noisy like a PA gig or OB.

sure, however e.g. myself i run a combined av/2ch rig, two discrete systems operating together with cables running past all sorts, power networks, routers, switch mode supplies and what not. some 8-10m runs of interconnects and I indeed have found benefit of running XLRs even quite rudimentary ones in sommer karbocab's... my signal path is via true balanced designs.  its not uncommon for dacs and digital gear to be such very easy infact most dacs dual differential and balanced in design. 

1 hour ago, A9X said:

Apart from the receiver and transmitter almost all amplifiers, pre and power are single ended, so adding balanced adds an extra stage  or two.

 

"almost all" not sure what that suggest really. more correct to say there is some gear that is unbalanced in design with balanced connectivity (and there are better and bodge ways of doing that) and other gear that is indeed truly balanced in design. 

[A9X]

53 minutes ago, al said:

sure, however e.g. myself i run a combined av/2ch rig, two discrete systems operating together with cables running past all sorts, power networks, routers, switch mode supplies and what not. some 8-10m runs of interconnects and I indeed have found benefit of running XLRs even quite rudimentary ones in sommer karbocab's... my signal path is via true balanced designs.  its not uncommon for dacs and digital gear to be such very easy infact most dacs dual differential and balanced in design. 

 

"almost all" not sure what that suggest really. more correct to say there is some gear that is unbalanced in design with balanced connectivity (and there are better and bodge ways of doing that) and other gear that is indeed truly balanced in design. 

As stated before, I've run unbalanced cables for very long runs in very electrically noisy environments such as past stage lighting dimmers with no audible effect. I used them in my workshop which for many years was situated at the midpoint of the three TV transmission towers in Sydney. A more electrically noisy environment would be harder to find.

 

Just so you understand, as well as having extensive qualifications in electronics, I also did repairs as a sideline (pro and domestic) for a couple of decades, so my comments are not from a laymans 'understanding', nor from poor/dishonest marketing descriptions but from actual experience of seeing the circuitry. I've also designed and built a ton of my own gear.

WRT other devices. It's true modern DACs are balanced but that's for distortion reduction in the DAC itself rather than outside it. As most domestic gear does not contain balanced inputs from a marketing perspective it is actually a drawback, unless you summate to provide a SE output (along with lower distortion).

Preamps: Whilst it's possible to design a peramp eithe deiscretely or using ICs as a true balanced unit, my experience and schematic library says that it's extremely rare. Most are ;unbalancing stage - SE preamp - balanced line driver. It's cheaper and easier to do well this way.

Poweramps: Almost without exception consist of an unbalancing stage followed by a SE poweramp. I can only think of a handful sold commercially that were true differential end to end and the only one I recall working on was an ancient Sumo unit (from memory). The reason for doing it this way is very simple. It hard to design a poweramp fully balanced because the parts need to be matched very carefully for each half of the differential. If this is not done, then parts selected randomly from the bin will give worse performance than the standard design (unbal - SE PA). Because of the higher parts count it can also be much more expensive to build.

 

So, what I was actually saying, is that almost all gear is not differential end to end, but as I've described it above. True diff unit, as in the engineering, not the marketing sense are extremely rare, but slightly less so in preamps than poweramps.