How much better

[Al.M]

3 hours ago, Happy said:

 

What about them panel speakers?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

Not quite the same as making the Krell speaker, which uses standard model drivers from Scanspeak perhaps with maybe some custom mods. Full panels electrostatics or ribbons would expect to be made from scratch consisting of the ESL membrane with power circuitry and ribbons or panel membrane the same and with crossover circuit plus the frames. If the panels are hybrid design then the woofer custom made or from a driver maker.

Edited July 14, 2017 by Al.M

[crisis]

6 hours ago, initforthemusic said:

Obviuosly you havn't experienced the "right" live gigs then. You appear to be still struggling with the whole concept, even though you have had some very good responses to your question. Hopefully one day you will "get it."

Since we are being patronising I have seen more live music and more diverse live music than you probably have even listened to. Than again maybe not, but I'll make that claim with as little information and as much presumption as you have made yours. Thanks for misinterpreting the whole nature of the thread.

[crisis]

5 hours ago, Simonon said:

Even got hit on the side of the head by a bottle at a Dire Straits concert......knocked me out cold and spent the concert in the ambulance tent.

Sent from my SM-G925I using Tapatalk
 

Bummer. Its a jungle out there. Sometimes you have to work for it.

[crisis]

4 hours ago, rantan said:

 

Definitely.

 BTW, I love live gigs and attend them regularly, but now I'm worried that they may not be the right gigs

 

Meh. I love them anyway

Absolutely pumped for Toto and Deep Purple coming back to Adelaide again. Have to cancel my intended attendance at the Adelaide New Dead Metal Fest as they clash. Of course I appreciate these probably arent the "right live gigs" anyway but what can you do..?

[crisis]

4 hours ago, Al.M said:

The Krell LAT 1 in pic below is an example in this discussion, I believe made around circa 2005 a $50K rrp multidriver MTMWWW speaker, about the time when Krell diversifies into making speakers. The use of the tweeter has drawn some online commentary in that it is well performing $40-50 Vifa XT25 ring radiator unit, next are the relatively expensive $250 each twin 5 inch Scanspeak slit paper mids, then what appear to be $300 each 8 inch triple Scanspeak paper carbon cone woofers, plus decent looking crossover in a large aluminium enclosure (plus design and marketing costs), estimated parts cost maybe around $5-6k per pair, which equates to the $50K rrp impressive looking tower speaker.

 

No other inference is being here and there are many factors surrounding this such as the manufacturer gets the parts cheaper than those available otherwise.

Obviously these are very expensive.

[darthlaker]

On 30/06/2017 at 9:57 PM, crisis said:

is a $10,000 amplifier/speaker than a $3000 one/pair? And how much better is a $30,000 one than a $10,000 one. When does it no longer matter?

 

http://hifipig.com/boulder-announces-release-of-1160-stereo-power-amplifier/

 

1)

 

is a $10,000 amplifier/speaker (better) than a $3000 one/pair?

 

They should be! But maybe not!

 

2)

 

And how much better is a $30,000 one than a $10,000 one. When does it no longer matter?

 

Should be a lot better. But maybe not! 

 

It always matters as there is always something better!

 

More expensive does not mean better but it should be! It all gets down to listening and ones opinion.

 

The CEO of Ayre Acoustics stated in an article (link below) that he thinks the US$400 Ayre designed Pono player gets you 80 to 90% of the sound from their US$27.5K (now US$30K) top of the line KXR-20 pre-amp (which I own and LOVE!)!!!!!

 

Now you don't hear that very often from an audio company!

 

https://www.cnet.com/au/news/will-the-400-pono-music-player-sound-like-a-27500-stereo-preamplifier/

 

In equipment that is designed well - as you go higher in cost, you should be getting a little bit better the higher you go. But maybe not! Whether you think it's worth it is up to the individual as well of course!

 

@crisis, I see you are in SA. Will invite you over sometime for a listen and a chat!

 

Cheers

 

 

 

[DRC]

19 hours ago, crisis said:

Obviously these are very expensive.

I only gave my impressions of my journey in hi fi based on experience. I did not mention Krell in the original post, and only after another contributor enquired as to the speakers I had used with my amps. Why? Invariably, this happens...

[Guest Eggcup The Daft]

20 hours ago, crisis said:

Absolutely pumped for Toto and Deep Purple coming back to Adelaide again. Have to cancel my intended attendance at the Adelaide New Dead Metal Fest as they clash. Of course I appreciate these probably arent the "right live gigs" anyway but what can you do..?

There are the live concerts where you may hear music that you can learn the sound of instruments from, and it's not certain that these ones will do that.

 

That's not the definition of a "right live gig" though. That's one you enjoy, for whatever reason. Support live music!

[audio_file]

I have heard a massive difference between $3k and $10k components and speakers, and almost always preferred the more expensive ones, with a few exceptions:

- A $5k stand mount often sounds better in some ways than a $8k floor stander, but it's usually a trade off for bass and spl.

- Bargains due to exchange rates, shipping costs, and taxes. A local Australian speaker or component has an advantage over imports for this reason, and could be considered as a more expensive one by realising how much would be added to the price if bought from Overseas.

 

I have not heard a massive difference between $10k and $30k components and speakers, but haven't heard that many. I have heard a few really good ones, but not enough to really have a good idea.

 

One thing that often goes up with the price is build quality and looks, which helps the people who are fussy about decor, or have a fussy wife.

[Wayne Elliott]

On 14/07/2017 at 10:35 PM, crisis said:

Since we are being patronising I have seen more live music and more diverse live music than you probably have even listened to. Than again maybe not, but I'll make that claim with as little information and as much presumption as you have made yours. Thanks for misinterpreting the whole nature of the thread.

My money's on the "maybe not".

[Wayne Elliott]

On 14/07/2017 at 10:43 PM, crisis said:

Absolutely pumped for Toto and Deep Purple coming back to Adelaide again. Have to cancel my intended attendance at the Adelaide New Dead Metal Fest as they clash. Of course I appreciate these probably arent the "right live gigs" anyway but what can you do..?

Toto definitely isn't, but each to their own.

[crisis]

10 minutes ago, initforthemusic said:

My money's on the "maybe not".

After a hundred or so it is merely a pissing contest anyway.

The point is you don't now what I've heard, how many I've attended, your idea of what is "right" is purely subjective but most of all your response ignored the point I was making.

[Wayne Elliott]

On 15/07/2017 at 6:55 PM, Eggcup The Daft said:

There are the live concerts where you may hear music that you can learn the sound of instruments from, and it's not certain that these ones will do that.

 

That's not the definition of a "right live gig" though. That's one you enjoy, for whatever reason. Support live music!

Yep. Do whenever possible. A great example, yesterday at one of our regular Tuesday music " bashes, one of the guys bought along Endless Boogie's latest album Vibe Killer, played through an extremely good set-up. While it was very enjoyable, could it replace the recent "live experience" of Endless Boogie. Definitely not.

 

So stand by what I've stated, "a great live experience" is the greatest "musical" experience. IMO if a person doesn't experience the same they are probably not going to the right gigs.

 

Off to experience "Sun God Replica" tomorrow night, in what I think is their 2nd last gig before Link heads to Spain. Always a great "live" experience.

[Wayne Elliott]

35 minutes ago, crisis said:

After a hundred or so it is merely a pissing contest anyway.

The point is you don't now what I've heard, how many I've attended, your idea of what is "right" is purely subjective but most of all your response ignored the point I was making.

Nope, you're wrong there. I've been to thousands and believe me it is definitely not "merely a pissing contest".

 

Explain the point you were making?

[crisis]

4 minutes ago, initforthemusic said:

Nope, you're wrong there. I've been to thousands and believe me it is definitely not "merely a pissing contest".

 

Explain the point you were making?

Perhaps you should have kept up

 

You said - I base what I try to get close to with my set-ups on live music gigs,of which I've experienced many thousands, i.e., I want the music to "move me", experience it fully in mind and body.  
This was a reasonable explanation of what you look for in your system. No problem. It was not really what I was asking though. Having briefly listened to the example of your musical taste this "experience" has little to do with faithfully reproducing the sounds of the instruments playing. That type of music could be "experienced fully in mind and body" with PA bins and a PA amp. No indictment of your taste but Not My Point.

 

I said - "Live"? meaning un amplified acoustic gigs?

You said - Marshall stacks turned up to 11!

Marshall stacks turned up to 11 in a live environment again do not reproduce the sounds of the instruments playing. I like the sound and experience live but again Not My Point.

 

I said - Rarely if ever can anyone listen to that. Never will you hear a "Marshall stack" at a live concert that hasn't been miced though a thousand meters of cables, processors, desk and back to PA speakers. Live concerts of amplified music resemble the sound of actual instrument far less accurately than do studio recorded albums.

You said - Live music is the greatest way to experience music.

Completely ignoring my Point.

 

I said - That's different.

You said - Different?

I said - The "experience" of live music cannot be denied but it is about a lot more than the fidelity of the reproduction of the instruments. A studio recording of any instrument will be more faithfully reproduced than any live concert PA can ever achieve. Its not a bad thing but it is different.

You said - No greater musical experience than a good "live" gig. While a recording can also be a good experience (it must be, I have 9,000 albums) it can never replace a good "live" musical experience. So you are incorrect with different, a good "live" gig is better. Do you attend "live" music regularly? If not, then why not?

Again ignoring my point about sound reproduction. You then went on to introduce the pissing contest as though attending "1000" live shows ordained you with some kind of authority while at the same time presuming I don't attend any and thus needed to explain this failing.

 

I said - you don't need to "replace" a "good live experience". As I said live music is a whole lot more than "just" the music. I stand by my claim that well recorded music will be more faithful to the source.

And FWIW yes I "attend live music". Probably not as regularly as I would like but whenever someone is playing I want to see/hear/experience. In fact I used to play it.

You said - Obviuosly you havn't experienced the "right" live gigs then. You appear to be still struggling with the whole concept, even though you have had some very good responses to your question. Hopefully one day you will "get it."

I said - Since we are being patronising I have seen more live music and more diverse live music than you probably have even listened to. Than again maybe not, but I'll make that claim with as little information and as much presumption as you have made yours. Thanks for misinterpreting the whole nature of the thread.

You said - My money's on the "maybe not". You added - Toto definitely isn't ( the "right live gig"), but each to their own. (FWIW Toto live was very close to a studio recording whether you like Rosanna or not....)

 

I said - After a hundred or so it is merely a pissing contest anyway.

The point is you don't now what I've heard, how many I've attended, your idea of what is "right" is purely subjective but most of all your response ignored the point I was making.

You said -  Nope, you're wrong there. I've been to thousands and believe me it is definitely not "merely a pissing contest".

Explain the point you were making?

I hope I've explained it.

 

[Wayne Elliott]

6 minutes ago, crisis said:

Perhaps you should have kept up

 

You said - I base what I try to get close to with my set-ups on live music gigs,of which I've experienced many thousands, i.e., I want the music to "move me", experience it fully in mind and body.  
This was a reasonable explanation of what you look for in your system. No problem. It was not really what I was asking though. Having briefly listened to the example of your musical taste this "experience" has little to do with faithfully reproducing the sounds of the instruments playing. That type of music could be "experienced fully in mind and body" with PA bins and a PA amp. No indictment of your taste but Not My Point.

 

I said - "Live"? meaning un amplified acoustic gigs?

You said - Marshall stacks turned up to 11!

Marshall stacks turned up to 11 in a live environment again do not reproduce the sounds of the instruments playing. I like the sound and experience live but again Not My Point.

 

I said - Rarely if ever can anyone listen to that. Never will you hear a "Marshall stack" at a live concert that hasn't been miced though a thousand meters of cables, processors, desk and back to PA speakers. Live concerts of amplified music resemble the sound of actual instrument far less accurately than do studio recorded albums.

You said - Live music is the greatest way to experience music.

Completely ignoring my Point.

 

I said - That's different.

You said - Different?

I said - The "experience" of live music cannot be denied but it is about a lot more than the fidelity of the reproduction of the instruments. A studio recording of any instrument will be more faithfully reproduced than any live concert PA can ever achieve. Its not a bad thing but it is different.

You said - No greater musical experience than a good "live" gig. While a recording can also be a good experience (it must be, I have 9,000 albums) it can never replace a good "live" musical experience. So you are incorrect with different, a good "live" gig is better. Do you attend "live" music regularly? If not, then why not?

Again ignoring my point about sound reproduction. You then went on to introduce the pissing contest as though attending "1000" live shows ordained you with some kind of authority while at the same time presuming I don't attend any and thus needed to explain this failing.

 

I said - you don't need to "replace" a "good live experience". As I said live music is a whole lot more than "just" the music. I stand by my claim that well recorded music will be more faithful to the source.

And FWIW yes I "attend live music". Probably not as regularly as I would like but whenever someone is playing I want to see/hear/experience. In fact I used to play it.

You said - Obviuosly you havn't experienced the "right" live gigs then. You appear to be still struggling with the whole concept, even though you have had some very good responses to your question. Hopefully one day you will "get it."

I said - Since we are being patronising I have seen more live music and more diverse live music than you probably have even listened to. Than again maybe not, but I'll make that claim with as little information and as much presumption as you have made yours. Thanks for misinterpreting the whole nature of the thread.

You said - My money's on the "maybe not". You added - Toto definitely isn't ( the "right live gig"), but each to their own. (FWIW Toto live was very close to a studio recording whether you like Rosanna or not....)

 

I said - After a hundred or so it is merely a pissing contest anyway.

The point is you don't now what I've heard, how many I've attended, your idea of what is "right" is purely subjective but most of all your response ignored the point I was making.

You said -  Nope, you're wrong there. I've been to thousands and believe me it is definitely not "merely a pissing contest".

Explain the point you were making?

I hope I've explained it.

 

LOL! Don't worry I have kept up. It's you who havn't. My whole point which I have tried to explain repeatedly is I want the music reproduction to "move me" as close as possible to a live music experience. It's you who keeps interpreting it incorrectly. You keep rattling on about sound not being accurate etc. which has absolutely nothing to do with my explanation of wanting the music to "move me" as in a live "music experience".

 

This is why I said you are "struggling" and "hope you'll finallly get it."

 

It's about the "feel", "emotion", "passion" etc. of music. You asked a question and I very kindly tried to help you out. That's what I've been trying to convey to you but you are really struggling with it. You do come across as being quite arrogant for someone who appears to have limited experience. Hope now you finally understand what I have been attempting to explain.

 

[sir sanders zingmore]

1 hour ago, initforthemusic said:

LOL! Don't worry I have kept up. It's you who havn't. My whole point which I have tried to explain repeatedly is I want the music reproduction to "move me" as close as possible to a live music experience. It's you who keeps interpreting it incorrectly. You keep rattling on about sound not being accurate etc. which has absolutely nothing to do with my explanation of wanting the music to "move me" as in a live "music experience".

 

This is why I said you are "struggling" and "hope you'll finallly get it."

 

It's about the "feel", "emotion", "passion" etc. of music. You asked a question and I very kindly tried to help you out. That's what I've been trying to convey to you but you are really struggling with it. You do come across as being quite arrogant for someone who appears to have limited experience. Hope now you finally understand what I have been attempting to explain.

 

 

Is music that "moves you", better than music that moves you ?

[audio_file]

Rock concerts often just hurt my ears, way too loud and way too distorted and too much noise from the crowd. With -26db ear plugs it at least gets past part of the problem.

 

Listening to a live orchestra in a concert hall on the other hand sounds better to me than on any system I have heard (so far).

[Guest Eggcup The Daft]

16 hours ago, initforthemusic said:

LOL! Don't worry I have kept up. It's you who havn't. My whole point which I have tried to explain repeatedly is I want the music reproduction to "move me" as close as possible to a live music experience. It's you who keeps interpreting it incorrectly. You keep rattling on about sound not being accurate etc. which has absolutely nothing to do with my explanation of wanting the music to "move me" as in a live "music experience".

 

This is why I said you are "struggling" and "hope you'll finallly get it."

 

It's about the "feel", "emotion", "passion" etc. of music. You asked a question and I very kindly tried to help you out. That's what I've been trying to convey to you but you are really struggling with it. You do come across as being quite arrogant for someone who appears to have limited experience. Hope now you finally understand what I have been attempting to explain.

 

Ah, I've been on the other side of this argument before...

 

What happens surprisingly often is that people take a form of what you are saying, and combine that with the idea that you can build a system that will always give you that emotion if you just look hard enough.

 

That way lies only disappointment. The system is not there to deliver the emotion. That is the job of the musicians. The job of the system is, putting it starkly, to deliver any of those emotion/feel/passion things that were in the recorded performance.

 

A better system is not one that turns a crap performance into one with feel/emotion/passion, it is one that improves the playback of the recording. Maybe it can better bring out the feel/emotion/passion that is there.

 

And yes, it does that by being more accurate.

 

[crisis]

18 hours ago, initforthemusic said:

 You do come across as being quite arrogant for someone who appears to have limited experience.

This!

[crisis]

1 hour ago, Eggcup The Daft said:

Ah, I've been on the other side of this argument before...

 

What happens surprisingly often is that people take a form of what you are saying, and combine that with the idea that you can build a system that will always give you that emotion if you just look hard enough.

 

That way lies only disappointment. The system is not there to deliver the emotion. That is the job of the musicians. The job of the system is, putting it starkly, to deliver any of those emotion/feel/passion things that were in the recorded performance.

 

A better system is not one that turns a crap performance into one with feel/emotion/passion, it is one that improves the playback of the recording. Maybe it can better bring out the feel/emotion/passion that is there.

 

And yes, it does that by being more accurate.

 

Oh my god, thank you!

[andyr]

1 hour ago, Eggcup The Daft said:

The system is not there to deliver the emotion. That is the job of the musicians. The job of the system is, putting it starkly, to deliver any of those emotion/feel/passion things that were in the recorded performance.

 

I absolutely agree! 

 

1 hour ago, Eggcup The Daft said:

And yes, it does that by being more accurate.

 

That statement, I'm afraid, I cannot agree with.

 

A solid state amp is typically more 'accurate' than a tube amp ... because it has a lower reading for THD.  Yet it's the H2 & H4 components of the good tube amp's SQ which typically will come across as delivering the emotion/feel/passion things that were in the recorded performance, better.

 

1 hour ago, Eggcup The Daft said:

A better system is not one that turns a crap performance into one with feel/emotion/passion, it is one that improves the playback of the recording. Maybe it can better bring out the feel/emotion/passion that is there.

 

I would say 'definitely' ... not 'maybe'. 

 

Andy

 

[audio_file]

The problem is a lot of recordings are done badly, regardless of the performance, and then you're left with the choice of listening to a bad recording, or miss out on some music..

[crisis]

 

2 hours ago, andyr said:

That statement, I'm afraid, I cannot agree with.

 

A solid state amp is typically more 'accurate' than a tube amp ... because it has a lower reading for THD.  Yet it's the H2 & H4 components of the good tube amp's SQ which typically will come across as delivering the emotion/feel/passion things that were in the recorded performance, better.

 

There are two different aims here. One to have a transparent medium to reproduce whatever is on the source and the other to "enhance" , if that's how one perceives it, whatever is on the source.

 

 

 

[andyr]

33 minutes ago, crisis said:

 

 

There are two different aims here. One to have a transparent medium to reproduce whatever is on the source and the other to "enhance" , if that's how one perceives it, whatever is on the source.

 

 

 

 

Your typical 70s Japanese ss amp - with loads of GNFB delivering 0.0001% THD - will certainly absolutely "reproduce whatever is on the source" ... with no distortion.  But it will sound boring / uninvolving compared to, say, a SET (which has, compared to the ss amp, outrageous amounts of H2 & H4 distortion)! 

 

Andy