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Just ordered one of these. Should be fun.


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Guest Eggcup The Daft

If you must have a tube CD player, I can recommend the Consonance Droplet - it played the CD layer of my test SACD beautifully when I visited Greg Osborn to audition the Eclipse towers, and the top loading gives just a touch of the ritual of LP playback.

All you have to do then is fix your sig ("Four different systems...")...

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On 28/06/2017 at 1:06 PM, RoHo said:

Almost all "tube" CD players use the tube as a marketing device or in a basic add-on implementation IMO ( AMR would be a notable, but very expensive, exception.)  Not worthy of partnering with one of Earle's creations.

Put the money towards speakers.

PS I really like the green transformers.

PPS Use the wait-time doing back-strengthening exercises.  Transformers of this capability are HEAVY :) 

 

This, don't buy into the snake oil of valve CD players.

 

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All CDP's I know that are using tubes are  utilising them on the output stage and some tube rolling on an output stage is going to garner results. Whether good or bad is up to your ears.

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Guest Muon N'

There are some CD players that do have a real valve output stage, but most are just a buffer for what i have noticed, investigate well if looking for the true valve output ones.

 

But many folks do like some of the valve buffer types.

 

Go for what sounds best to you.

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On 30 June 2017 at 9:21 PM, LogicprObe said:

 

He was Big in QLD.

 

He was just BIG! Bloody BIG! 

 

He had a corporate box at Bathurst one year next to the one we were in and even though it was a bloody cold miserable day big ol Kev still had just his usual Hawaiian shirt on while everyone else was rugged up with half a dozen layers and shivering cold.

 

cheers Terry

Edited by TerryO
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4 hours ago, Roumelio. said:

 

This, don't buy into the snake oil of valve CD players.

 

A rather general statement. Can't say that I agree but your experiences would be very different from mine. Just interested why you have such a distrust of using tubes in an output stage.

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9 hours ago, guru said:

A rather general statement. Can't say that I agree but your experiences would be very different from mine. Just interested why you have such a distrust of using tubes in an output stage.

There's nothing to be gained. You can't magically change a digital output into an analogue one. The only thing to be gained is colouration, which is what you don't want. This is at least from my perspective of course only, and there are many other perspectives so lets make that clear. But, from my perspective It's never going to sound like its come out of a tube amplifier, and so its a mugs game, where you're fooling yourself into believing your getting a higher quality output stage.

 

From my perspective, one does not simply add a tube to a digital output and hey presto whazoo now I have an analogue stage. No, nope, nup.... nothing left to be said for that matter at all. No magic rabits hats here nada. It might look pretty but its not functional in any sense save for colour. Which is fine if you like that, some people do.

 

My perspective is that digital is digital and analogue is analogue finito. Enjoy each equally but not together. Just for fun, I hooked a CD player up to my valve amplifier just yesterday, to be honest it sounded like arse. This was no small feat going through a set of NS10 near field monitors and 12AX7/6BM8 pentode amplifier. That is about as neutral and critical as one can get with input and output stages, just google those valves and what they're used for in that combination and it will become self explanatory.  Really, It did sound like arse, I'm not poking fun for the sake of it... It tore what some might consider good mixes to shreds and brought out all the flaws in the digital process.

 

Meanwhile, I enjoy Spotify extreme more than I should I have a set of Focal Spirit Professionals for listening to Spotify on the go. it's easy and I have access to practically any song one could imagine on earth, just type it in. I even own some CDs. But I keep my analogue listening space for listening to for what might be termed ye oldie music recorded on reel to reel tape and/or pressed to vinyl... while my digital space for current music. Both have their merits when you listen to vinyl as it should have come off the press, and as you listen to digitally mastered music through a digital stage, but they simply should not be combined together from my perspective.

Of course some people can't be selective like that and have two amps and two sets of speakers. Some people can, it's not really meant to disparage anyone it just is.

Edited by Roumelio.
Clarity
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On 6/29/2017 at 8:48 AM, RoHo said:

I'd want to know how the tube is implemented in the output stage.  From what I've seen/heard in most "tube" CD players there are still op-amps in there doing the main job. For example a 12AX7 just can't properly do one of the tasks required - provide a low output impedance.

 

Correct. There are even OP amps inside the DACs. The valve is there to add some pleasurable (to some listeners) distortion. 

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9 hours ago, guru said:

A rather general statement. Can't say that I agree but your experiences would be very different from mine. Just interested why you have such a distrust of using tubes in an output stage.

A frustration of mine is that there are different  types of DAC chips with different output stage requirements that can be implemented well or badly by tubes or SS.  But we lump them all in either the "tube" camp or the solid-state camp.

I repeat myself, and I'm willing to be contradicted, that the typical "tube" CD player, which is probably Chinese, has a delta-sigma DAC that incorporates an op-amp and doesn't really need any further processing.  But it will have a chain of op-amps and a tube in there somewhere. Like 12AX7 which has very gain and is useless as an output driver.  It's quite reasonable to presume that the tube is there to add "tone" ie pleasant distortion.

This is a totally different situation to a current-output DAC with maybe a high quality transformer doing the current-to-voltage conversion and a more sophisticated exclusively tube, gain/output stage. A proper "tube CD player".  But this is expensive and so is only found in much more expensive players.

 

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Guest guru
53 minutes ago, RoHo said:

A frustration of mine is that there are different  types of DAC chips with different output stage requirements that can be implemented well or badly by tubes or SS.  But we lump them all in either the "tube" camp or the solid-state camp.

I repeat myself, and I'm willing to be contradicted, that the typical "tube" CD player, which is probably Chinese, has a delta-sigma DAC that incorporates an op-amp and doesn't really need any further processing.  But it will have a chain of op-amps and a tube in there somewhere. Like 12AX7 which has very gain and is useless as an output driver.  It's quite reasonable to presume that the tube is there to add "tone" ie pleasant distortion.

This is a totally different situation to a current-output DAC with maybe a high quality transformer doing the current-to-voltage conversion and a more sophisticated exclusively tube, gain/output stage. A proper "tube CD player".  But this is expensive and so is only found in much more expensive players.

 

Which type do you think I was referring too?

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You can take a 20cent OP amp and put a valve on it, but its still an OP amp. I've got an OP amp and it ticks all the boxes, it plays music if you need to hook a turntable up to a modern solid state amp without one. For that I can't fault it, but one could just as easily buy an amp with a proper phono stage. Honestly, its a 20cent component on a printed circuit board how much good can come from this? I don't mean to be a snob, but lets think about what OP amps do as a generalisation. Most of them are not used for their musicality.

 

Their primary use is in small electronic and computer devices. Yet we're seeing more of these OP amps rather than amps with proper FETS, capacitors and transformers even in high end audio gear. Nothing good can come out of this.

Edited by Roumelio.
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Well.... my experience of exactly one CD player :) is:

My Cd player is a Rotel RSD991, a very well specified and built thing, apart from the generic op-amp output stage.  The DACS are PCM 63, current output types.  So I disconnected the output stage, put in a simple resistor as the current to voltage  converter (I/V) followed by my DIY valve pre-amp for gain.  Sounded better, so it stayed that way for a few years.

Then I read here and and on DIYaudio of "Lightspeed" George's experience with the AD844 chip used stacked and without feedback (thanks George).  Sounded interesting and was simple to implement so I gave it a go.  Immediately a more dynamic sound with a larger soundstage, so it has stayed like this since

IMO it's all about the design and implementation, tubes or SS.  And to do it well with tubes is not simple or cheap.

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Again another thread has gone off track into a discussion about what technically is good or bad, right or wrong in a system while totally discounting what each individual listener actually enjoys. 

Does it really matter if a valve or two added to a CD player actually only adds pleasurable distortion for some listeners? 

 

Isn't it up to each person to decide what they like in sq and distortion for that matter and what equipment they want to buy to achieve that preferred sound?

 

Every set of speakers, amp, speaker cables, CD player and now TT I have added or taken away and or mixed and matched has changed the overall sound of my system, sometimes to my liking and sometimes not, so if someone can please tell me what my stereo should actually sound like so I then know what I should be listening to then I will sell off the wrong parts.

 

My apologies to Blake for also going off topic, this thread should be about his soon to be new pride and joy.

 

cheers Terry

Edited by TerryO
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11 hours ago, RoHo said:

Well.... my experience of exactly one CD player :) is:

My Cd player is a Rotel RSD991, a very well specified and built thing, apart from the generic op-amp output stage.  The DACS are PCM 63, current output types.  So I disconnected the output stage, put in a simple resistor as the current to voltage  converter (I/V) followed by my DIY valve pre-amp for gain.  Sounded better, so it stayed that way for a few years.

Then I read here and and on DIYaudio of "Lightspeed" George's experience with the AD844 chip used stacked and without feedback (thanks George).  Sounded interesting and was simple to implement so I gave it a go.  Immediately a more dynamic sound with a larger soundstage, so it has stayed like this since

IMO it's all about the design and implementation, tubes or SS.  And to do it well with tubes is not simple or cheap.

Date Reviewed: June 1, 2016

Bottom Line:   

I bought the Rotel RCD-991 sometime around 99/2000 as a demo unit for AUS$1k. As I found CD playback very ordinary around that period I was reluctant to spend much on a player. It was passable at the time although my Sota Star T/T was much better, so it was vinyl for more serious listening and CD for more casual listening.

When I decided to get back into some serious listening around 2011 I bought a new player and could no longer listen to the Rotel. It sounded anaemic, flat, undynamic and one dimensional. It sat there for 2 years unused. After reading positive reports on the Burson upgrades I decided for $350 it was worth the risk. They upgraded the OP-Amps, clock/crystal.

Well, what a difference! The RCD-991 has gone from unlistenable to having dynamics, soundstage and less fatigue. It has upgraded the player many times in sound, (dollar wise I would estimate about $1.5k improvement) although it stll sits behind my three best players I've heard for the money. In order Unison Research CDE, Vincent CD-S8 & Vincent CD7-DAC.

So if you have the RCD-991 or can pick one up cheap the Burson upgrades are mandatory.

As is the Rotel struggles to get 2 stars, upgraded it is 4 star.
 
End of review.
 
Hey Roho, interesting, seems a bit similar to the improvement upgrades made to your RCD-991. Yes the Burson upgrades improved the RCD-991 ten-fold. Had to otherwise it was going in the bin. Although improved immensely still a long, long way behind my 3 tube players in musical involvement.
 
 
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