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"The Cult of the Yamaha NS-1000 Monitor Loudspeaker"


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6 minutes ago, Tony M said:

Sorry, I missed this post until now.

 

No, I haven't tried the Bryston with the Yamahas, but probably will at some stage.  I think that part of the reason I haven't gotten around to it is the warning on the back of the speakers about staying within their designated power handling limits.  They might not like 600 wpc!

 

Sure, I know that it would be OK if the volume control was used judiciously.  The problem is that I can't always be trusted to adhere to that wise principle.  ;)

 

You are conflating 2 entirely different things:

  1. the sensitivity of the amp - ie. 500mV in, drives it to full output ... vs. you need 1V in to do this, and
  2. the amp's output power rating.

If your amp has 1V sensitivity and your source - like a phono stage - only has 500mV output ... then you need to turn up your preamp volume ctrl a lot more than if your amp has 500mV sensitivity.  (And if you have a passive preamp - ie. with zero gain - you will never be able to drive the amp to full output if it has 1V sensitivity and your  phono stage only has 500mV output.)

 

And if your Yammies need quite a lot of watts to come alive then:

  • sure, you can blow them when driving them with the Bryston and turning up your preamp volume ctrl too much.
  • but you can also fry the tweeters if you use a lower-powered amp and drive it into clipping, when trying to get the volume you want.

Andy

 

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FWIW, I have had several pairs of both NS1000M's and Gale 401's for many years.  During almost all of that time, I clearly preferred the Yamaha's, but couldn't bear to part with the Gales, partly beca

This thread is a homage to a great loudspeaker that has stood the test of time, the Yamaha NS-1000M studio monitor. There is good reason why this classic threeway loudspeaker has a cult following - it

I use NS-1000M’s. My own have been extensively rebuilt but they still sound excellent without anything done to them:

On 21/08/2020 at 9:27 PM, LogicprObe said:

 

It's not a cult..........................it's just a great speaker!

Similar was said about Manson.

 

"It's not a cult!....he's just a great speaker" :D ;)

 

Gonna have to hear a pair of these fabled speakers one day :)

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1 hour ago, muon* said:

Similar was said about Manson.

 

"It's not a cult!....he's just a great speaker" :D ;)

 

Gonna have to hear a pair of these fabled speakers one day :)

 

That nearly as good as my Focal joke..............................but not quite!

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1 hour ago, andyr said:

 

You are conflating 2 entirely different things:

 

  Yes, that doesn't surprise me at all, Andy,  I'm well aware my understanding of this is somewhat deficient,

 

When the Bryston can drive my Gale 401's at full volume without anything getting distressed, I have to wonder how this could be.  The source/pre is an AMR DP777SE - I guess it would put out about 2V at maximum volume.

 

Perhaps amp sensitivity is the parameter I've been looking for to explain some things that have been mystifying me lately.  But it doesn't seem to feature in amp specs and doesn't seem to be discussed much, if at all.

 

In matching amps to speakers, the usual recommendation for parameters to consider are the output power of the power amp at the relevant impedance and the power handling of the speakers.  How often do we see the amp sensitivity being brought into the equation?  Is it an important factor that's generally overlooked?

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I take back the comment that input sensitivity doesn't feature in amp specs.  I haven't tended to notice it as I didn't understand what it meant or the implications.

 

The Bryston is 4.5 V  for 500W.  So, does this mean that, if I'm using a pre that can only put out 2V, only a fraction of the power of the amp is available to me?

 

Maybe I do need a proper preamp after all? 

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1 minute ago, Tony M said:

I take back the comment that input sensitivity doesn't feature in amp specs.  I haven't tended to notice it as I didn't understand what it meant or the implications.

 

The Bryston is 4.5 V  for 500W.  So, does this mean that, if I'm using a pre that can only put out 2V, only a fraction of the power of the amp is available to me?

 

Maybe I do need a proper preamp after all? 

@Telecine  to the rescue

 

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Ha, just noticed my Audions have a sensitivity of 150mV for full output!  So, their sensitivity is about 30 times that of the Bryson.  :o

 

Andy, I think you've put me onto something that might explain a lot.  Clearly, I need to look into this further.

 

However, if I use a preamp that puts out say 5V and the full 600WPC becomes available, then I'd need to be a lot more careful driving speakers with relatively low power handling, wouldn't I?   And matching speaker sensitivity to power amp output is still relevant?  It's just that sensitivity and how this affects the power amp output has to be taken into account too?

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14 minutes ago, Tony M said:

I take back the comment that input sensitivity doesn't feature in amp specs.  I haven't tended to notice it as I didn't understand what it meant or the implications.

 

The Bryston is 4.5 V  for 500W.  So, does this mean that, if I'm using a pre that can only put out 2V, only a fraction of the power of the amp is available to me?

 

Maybe I do need a proper preamp after all? 

 

The Bryston sensitivity is quite low at 4.5v. You will not be able to drive the amp to full power with 2V. A decent preamp would probably solve this issue. The maximum output of my preamp for example is 22V.

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15 minutes ago, Tony M said:

Ha, just noticed my Audions have a sensitivity of 150mV for full output!  So, their sensitivity is about 30 times that of the Bryson.  :o

 

Andy, I think you've put me onto something that might explain a lot.  Clearly, I need to look into this further.

 

However, if I use a preamp that puts out say 5V and the full 600WPC becomes available, then I'd need to be a lot more careful driving speakers with relatively low power handling, wouldn't I?   And matching speaker sensitivity to power amp output is still relevant?  It's just that sensitivity and how this affects the power amp output has to be taken into account too?

 

You are less likely to clip an amp with more power than one with too little as @andyr has said. Clipping occurs far more often than is commonly believed. Overdriving any speaker can damage it but clipping can just as easily damage it. Given a choice, I would opt for more power.

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Thanks Tele.  Yes, I understand that as it's part of the "conventional wisdom".  However, the concept of amp sensitivity doesn't seem to have achieved much prominence in my experience.

 

Actually,  I suspect the situation I have currently is very safe indeed for speakers with appropriate power handling capacity.  If the power amp is being underdriven and not able to put out its full power, It's highly unlikely to clip?

 

However, I'm probably not getting the full potential of the power amp, which is a good reason to investigate further.  

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36 minutes ago, Tony M said:

Thanks Tele.  Yes, I understand that as it's part of the "conventional wisdom".  However, the concept of amp sensitivity doesn't seem to have achieved much prominence in my experience.

 

Actually,  I suspect the situation I have currently is very safe indeed for speakers with appropriate power handling capacity.  If the power amp is being underdriven and not able to put out its full power, It's highly unlikely to clip?

 

However, I'm probably not getting the full potential of the power amp, which is a good reason to investigate further.  

 

Actually, it will be more likely to clip being underdriven as it will have less reserves of power to deal with dynamic swings.

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52 minutes ago, Telecine said:

 

Actually, it will be more likely to clip being underdriven as it will have less reserves of power to deal with dynamic swings.

 

 

Now that, indeed @Tony M is a concept which needs some serious thinking about!  :)

 

Andy

 

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1 hour ago, Telecine said:

 

Actually, it will be more likely to clip being underdriven as it will have less reserves of power to deal with dynamic swings.

 

45 minutes ago, andyr said:

 

Now that, indeed @Tony M is a concept which needs some serious thinking about!  :)

 

 Are you sure about that Telecine?   The power is being limited by the input voltage.

 

Intuitively, I'd expect this to result in reduced dynamics (though this hasn't been apparent to me subjectively) but wouldn't the reduced power be compensated for by the reduced input voltage?

 

I'm not pretending to understand this - just asking questions in the hope of discovering truth and light.:)

 

Of course I agree with andy, but I also need to do some serious research.  The thinking bit (with insufficient knowledge) is making my head hurt. 

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Pretty sure Tony:

 

"The most common, and avoidable, form of amplifier clipping occurs when an audio amplifier is driven beyond its ability to generate sufficient voltage or current to reproduce the original signal to your speakers."

 

If your amp cannot generate sufficient voltage or current to reproduce the original signal to your speakers, it will clip.

 

You may have inadvertently turned your high power Bryston amp into something lower powered or even underpowered so that it will clip at moderate volumes.

 

In a properly driven, well designed amp, the power transistors usually have reserve current and power available ensuring that few problems will be encountered. This is to ensure that the output devices work within their Safe Operating Area at all times.

 

What about speaker load?:

 

"Real life loads are neither predictable nor reasonable, with nominal* 8 ohm loads perhaps plunging to 3 ohms or less at some frequencies, and soaring to 50 ohms or more at loudspeaker driver resonance."

 

Your Gales 401A's are a good example of a difficult speaker load.

 

What about dynamic swings in music?:

 

"One of the problems is that music is also unpredictable. Some music has a very low 'crest factor' (the ratio, in dB, between the average and peak power), so relatively high power levels are present on a more or less constant basis. Other music has a high crest factor, with a peak to average ratio of up to 20dB (a power ratio of 100:1)."

 

We tend to like music with a wide dynamic range (high crest factor) as opposed to made for radio/wall of sound compressed recordings (low crest factor). Music with a wide dynamic range will place greater demands on your amplifier.

 

So the combination of unpredictable loads, different musical styles and power demands and different listening preferences (think volume here) can place demands on an amplifier that can cause it to clip, even when properly driven. These are all exacerbated by a situation where the amp is not properly driven to full power and therefore may not have sufficient reserves of current and power available.

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  • 2 weeks later...
  • 2 weeks later...

Not sure if you still have them but I'd love to bring my NS-500Ms around some time to compare the two. 

They're a very similar thing in a lot of ways to the NS-1000M & I understand they sound very similar, with some subtle differences in the mids and the bass. I've heard the NS-500M is a little warmer in the mids, with a little more bass response but I'd hardly call it warm. The clarity in the mids & treble blows me away. 

IMG_3921.jpg

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  • 1 month later...

Hello all. So I'm a recent cult inductee and was wondering if any of you had recommendations for stands for the NS-1000M. Preferably something sturdy (so not a cheap lamp table), currently in production (so not SPS-500s), available in Australia (so not Hamilex or Deer Creek stands, as nice as they look), and involving minimal DIY (as I'm about as handy as an eel).

 

Any help would be much appreciated. Cheers! 

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2 hours ago, twofires said:

Hello all. So I'm a recent cult inductee and was wondering if any of you had recommendations for stands for the NS-1000M. Preferably something sturdy (so not a cheap lamp table), currently in production (so not SPS-500s), available in Australia (so not Hamilex or Deer Creek stands, as nice as they look), and involving minimal DIY (as I'm about as handy as an eel).

 

Any help would be much appreciated. Cheers! 

Look around for anything reasonably sturdy new or used that is about 40cm tall to bring the tweeters level with seated height and woofer above floor for cleaner bass and overall less muddy sound. Mid and tweeter controls set at 10am and 11-12.

 

The stands pictured in the NS500 post above is about right.

On 20/12/2020 at 11:37 AM, jcadlols said:

Not sure if you still have them but I'd love to bring my NS-500Ms around some time to compare the two. 

They're a very similar thing in a lot of ways to the NS-1000M & I understand they sound very similar, with some subtle differences in the mids and the bass. I've heard the NS-500M is a little warmer in the mids, with a little more bass response but I'd hardly call it warm. The clarity in the mids & treble blows me away. 

IMG_3921.jpg

I’ve had the NS500 and they are quite good but no where as detailed and clean midrange and treble.

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2 hours ago, twofires said:

Hello all. So I'm a recent cult inductee and was wondering if any of you had recommendations for stands for the NS-1000M. Preferably something sturdy (so not a cheap lamp table), currently in production (so not SPS-500s), available in Australia (so not Hamilex or Deer Creek stands, as nice as they look), and involving minimal DIY (as I'm about as handy as an eel).

 

Any help would be much appreciated. Cheers! 

Atacama stands there is 300mm and 400mm version

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1 hour ago, Al.M said:

Look around for anything reasonably sturdy new or used that is about 40cm tall to bring the tweeters level with seated height and woofer above floor for cleaner bass and overall less muddy sound. Mid and tweeter controls set at 10am and 11-12.

 

The stands pictured in the NS500 post above is about right.

 

I was initially considering something simple like a pair of these lamp tables, which are 400x400x400:

 

https://www.templeandwebster.com.au/Belgium-Lamp-Table-LT-000-TA-CENA1127.html?refid=GPAAU447-CENA1127_11543991&device=m&ptid=882004499010&PiID[]=11543991&gclid=Cj0KCQiA34OBBhCcARIsAG32uvO6zUXew4buVOMsnH4scJmJsASgICq7MoXyhE6MxQradvUstHFss80aAr2WEALw_wcB

 

But there's no way for me to know if they'll withstand the weight without taking a leap of faith. The nightmare scenario for me is getting something too flimsy, the speakers crashing to the ground and the woofer magnets dislodging.

 

1 hour ago, mloutfie said:

Atacama stands there is 300mm and 400mm version

 

I did see those - is the 225mm top enough contact area with the speaker to be stable, in your experience? 

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5 hours ago, twofires said:

Hello all. So I'm a recent cult inductee and was wondering if any of you had recommendations for stands for the NS-1000M. Preferably something sturdy (so not a cheap lamp table), currently in production (so not SPS-500s), available in Australia (so not Hamilex or Deer Creek stands, as nice as they look), and involving minimal DIY (as I'm about as handy as an eel).

 

Any help would be much appreciated. Cheers! 

Check out the thread below, there are a few options to chose from if  considering DIY.

 

 

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I’m considering tig welding some stands using industrial stainless pipe and flanges for my NS-500Ms. I’ll fill them with sand to deaden any resonance (not to mention they’ll be extremely solid). 
 

If there’s interest I’d consider selling sets made to size, even with the possibility of 90° bent stands for wall mounting.


This photo isn’t mine but it’s a general idea of the weld appearance I’d be shooting for & what these industrial pipe flanges look like.
 

I’m still working out material costs (for my own set) and I’ll factor in man hours & come up with pricing if anyone does want a set.


image.jpeg.691edd8620d2f3d4deeb29f40b2cf4c3.jpeg

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1 hour ago, twofires said:

But there's no way for me to know if they'll withstand the weight without taking a leap of faith

Their base size is 375 x 326 so those would stick out and not look good, weight is no problem.

 

Just be patient for a used pair of stands or try harder to search for new ones or get creative on how to source them like Gumtree interstate or Thomo in WA in this forum will make a beautiful pair. Old school stands are not made in numbers these days.

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I use NS-1000M’s. My own have been extensively rebuilt but they still sound excellent without anything done to them:

D63E5D99-D75D-4049-8E84-9FDF39056523.jpeg

159E78FB-A220-4E47-9ECC-BB5E2006BFCB.jpeg

213BA19C-8DF4-4A6F-847E-263B2839A034.jpeg

Edited by YNWaN
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7 hours ago, YNWaN said:

I use NS-1000M’s. My own have been extensively rebuilt but they still sound excellent without anything done to them:

D63E5D99-D75D-4049-8E84-9FDF39056523.jpeg

159E78FB-A220-4E47-9ECC-BB5E2006BFCB.jpeg

213BA19C-8DF4-4A6F-847E-263B2839A034.jpeg

That's one of the best one I've seen. Is the back plate custom made? I've also been looking for the foam wave guide keen to get one if you know where to source one?

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I’ve only heard these once, a guy had them in an overcrowded room that you could hardly move around in.
He played them with pride but I can’t remember being overly impressed, in fact I remember the situation being one of those moments when you’re hearing a system that is inferior to your own so you nod politely and act impressed when you’re not.

To hear them being compared to (and exceeding) ATC speakers is a bit of a shock, now I really want to hear them in a properly set up room. 
 

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12 hours ago, Willmax said:

These may still be available for sale, perhaps send the OP an enquiry:

 

Yes I still have one pair of those stands left.They have been stored away in a box.

 

 

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4 hours ago, Tony Martello said:

I’ve only heard these once, a guy had them in an overcrowded room that you could hardly move around in.
He played them with pride but I can’t remember being overly impressed, in fact I remember the situation being one of those moments when you’re hearing a system that is inferior to your own so you nod politely and act impressed when you’re not.

To hear them being compared to (and exceeding) ATC speakers is a bit of a shock, now I really want to hear them in a properly set up room. 
 

I’ve had a similar situation with some B&W speakers. I think they were 600 somethings (don’t know a lot about B&W). 
 

To be fair to them, they were in a pretty small room, pretty far from ideal listening conditions. I’d definitely be keen to hear them in a better environment.

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19 hours ago, Al.M said:

Look around for anything reasonably sturdy new or used that is about 40cm tall to bring the tweeters level with seated height and woofer above floor for cleaner bass and overall less muddy sound. Mid and tweeter controls set at 10am and 11-12.

 

The stands pictured in the NS500 post above is about right.

I’ve had the NS500 and they are quite good but no where as detailed and clean midrange and treble.


Did you have the 2 way 500 or the 500M? 
 

I figured the mids may not be as good. I know the tweeter is different but still a beryllium unit so I figured that would be similar. Not really sure how the carbon woofer affects the low end relative to the pulp one in the 1000. I’d describe bass as adequate but they definitely still need a sub or two to assist them for any more modern music. 

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17 hours ago, mloutfie said:

That's one of the best one I've seen. Is the back plate custom made? I've also been looking for the foam wave guide keen to get one if you know where to source one?


Yes, the back plate is custom, I designed and made it. I also designed and made the foam diffraction rings. In addition I also did everything in the crossovers and some internal bracing that braces the back of the bass driver. Also the stands (which were subsequently copied) and the Yamaha badges. Since that picture I have also added custom designed super-tweeters. Oh, I did the finish too which is a gloss black laminate. 

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  • 2 months later...

Having spent a bit of time with my NS1000M now, I'm curious - what songs best sum up the speaker for you? 

 

I ask because I'm listening to Nine Inch Nails' 'The Fragile' right now, and I have never heard it bite and punch this hard in the 20+ years I've been listening to it. It's absolutely visceral.

 

I know that's not what most of you listen to, but I thought it might be interesting to get your thoughts.

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Modern jazz and vocals, acoustic and guitars, flamenco, female vocals, flutes, bongo drums, country, light rock etc.

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