gonefishing999 Posted June 20, 2017 Share Posted June 20, 2017 Sound stage has probably been covered on here before but lets see. I have a dislike when the first thing with every hifi review or upgrade the first thing people say is improved sound stage among other things. So what is SS and how can it be described. Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andyr Posted June 20, 2017 Share Posted June 20, 2017 32 minutes ago, gonefishing999 said: Sound stage has probably been covered on here before but lets see. I have a dislike when the first thing with every hifi review or upgrade the first thing people say is improved sound stage among other things. So what is SS and how can it be described. Peter 4 parameters, IMO, Peter - the degree of depth (most important ... something that I lack atm !) / width / height ... and whether you can judge instrument/singer placement. Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guru Posted June 20, 2017 Share Posted June 20, 2017 (edited) If anyone says the soundstage has improved then it's generally because the noise floor of the system has been lowered and more low level ambient information in the recording is being heard by the listener. The given here though is the fact that the placement and overall setup of the system is optimised to a high degree, everything working well, no obvious issues. all of the aspects of height, width, depth and ambient decay are in the recording already, it's just down to the equipment and the level of skill in the setup as to whether they are revealed. Edited June 21, 2017 by guru Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AussieMick Posted June 21, 2017 Share Posted June 21, 2017 Agreed. The detail in recordings that gives soundstage clues is often low level, so reducing noise in the system and increasing resolution lead to better staging. Getting control of bass reproduction is also a big help. Clear, deep, unobtrusive bass helps out the high frequencies enormously. The soundstage itself is just referring to how well separated the individual instruments and voices are from each other. The easy one to get is side to side spread (left-centre-right). However, hearing front to back layering requires much more detail and subtly. Height seems to be the toughest to get right. So, top notch sound staging will give you just as much depth and height as it will width, provided it's on the recording. It becomes more "visual". Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AussieMick Posted June 21, 2017 Share Posted June 21, 2017 Agreed. The detail in recordings that gives soundstage clues is often low level, so reducing noise in the system and increasing resolution lead to better staging. Getting control of bass reproduction is also a big help. Clear, deep, unobtrusive bass helps out the high frequencies enormously. The soundstage itself is just referring to how well separated the individual instruments and voices are from each other. The easy one to get is side to side spread (left-centre-right). However, hearing front to back layering requires much more detail and subtly. Height seems to be the toughest to get right. So, top notch sound staging will give you just as much depth and height as it will width, provided it's on the recording. It becomes more "visual". Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PleasantSounds Posted June 21, 2017 Share Posted June 21, 2017 I have always thought that the term soundstage refers to the overall size of the space that the sounds appear to be coming from. Position of the sound sources in that space would be referred to as imaging. And how is it that with a completely dead noise floor that many digital systems easily provide, the perceived soundstage and imaging can be completely different when you change the speakers? Isn't that influenced by their phase response and generally both speakers being as close to identical as possible? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AussieMick Posted June 21, 2017 Share Posted June 21, 2017 Phase response, yes, also balance and frequency response. As for noise floor, it's not just about the signal to noise ratio of digital playback. All electronic components generate digital noise, and mains power can be the carrier of plenty of nasties, too. It's all injected into our systems, raising the noise floor. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zaphod Beeblebrox Posted June 21, 2017 Share Posted June 21, 2017 8 hours ago, gonefishing999 said: Sound stage has probably been covered on here before but lets see. I have a dislike when the first thing with every hifi review or upgrade the first thing people say is improved sound stage among other things. So what is SS and how can it be described. Peter Simply put, sound stage is the sense of 3 dimensionality provided by recorded music, when played through a sound system. In approximate order of importance, here are the things that influence that sense of 3D : * The room. The fewer reflections, the better. IOW, room damping is critical to achieving a good result. The room is usually what people DON'T talk about, but is, far and away, the most important factor in achieving good imaging. * The speakers. Speakers should be designed to reduce reflections as much as possible. This generally means damping materials on the front of the speakers and/or rounded edges. Time alignment of drivers is also very helpful. * Electronics. The electronics should have very accurate phase response throughout the audible band. It should also possess excellent crosstalk figures. Power supplies are important,as high power levels can cause power supply modulation, thus leading to deterioration of the above figures, along with a host of others. 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Spencer Posted June 22, 2017 Share Posted June 22, 2017 If you're tired of hearing about sound stage in reviews, the solution might be to stop reading reviews! What does it mean when a reviewer says "the sound stage has improved?" Without qualification, it actually means nothing at all. If they are talking about sources, cables, DACs, preamps and amplifiers then the differences will be relatively subtle. However, if it's about speakers, their placement, acoustic treatment and the room, now it could be much bigger differences. Generally when talking about imaging, it will be about how clearly you can identify an apparent location for each sound. The sound stage will tend to refer to the size of the "acoustic picture." However, it can actually be more involved. For example? Does is bigger sound stage better? Very often, when one hears a bigger sound stage, it will seem like an improvement. For quite some time I preferred open baffle speakers for their larger sound stage. The depth of the sound stage in particular was highly attractive. The downside was that in many cases, this was actually an unnatural distortion of the sound stage. Dialogue became artificially stretched and vague in location. In other words, imaging suffered in terms of precision. With sound staging, we can talk about the width, height and depth. We can talk about the separation, which is not exactly the same thing as simply talking in terms of size. With regards to imaging, we typically are talking about the precision. By far the largest differences you can make all relate to the speakers, their placement, the room and how you have treated it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catman Posted June 22, 2017 Share Posted June 22, 2017 G'day all, interesting comments. For me, 'sound stage' has never really been overly apparent, apart from a basic sense of directionality borne of 'stereo effect'. I suspect that less than ideal room acoustics in this house (very reflective), has been the major cause. Regards, Felix. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allthumbs Posted June 22, 2017 Share Posted June 22, 2017 I have always been thoroughly confused by soundstage and imaging. I like the phenomenon of the third image between 2 speakers it never fails to take my breath away, screw mono. Piano concertos always confuse me, am in the front row close by looking up, or high in the upper circle looking down from towards the back of the auditorium. When I visit Symphony orchestra concerts, I usually close my eyes and get that Phil Spector wall of sound effect, with eyes open my ears tend to follow my eyes if you know what I mean. The best soundstage and imaging I ever experienced was courtesy of a small helping of nature's tobacco from a 3 way pair of Gales. Mobile Fidelity Pressing of Deja Vu by CSN&Y. Neil Young's voice was about 6 ft in all directions and his harmonica was about 3 feet high and 9 feet wide, which makes sense stuck as it was in his 6ft gob, it was like listening to a full blown Luna Park carousel in the lounge room, that little additive wasn't in the spec sheet as far as I could see. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zaphod Beeblebrox Posted June 22, 2017 Share Posted June 22, 2017 (edited) 12 hours ago, allthumbs said: Piano concertos always confuse me, am in the front row close by looking up, or high in the upper circle looking down from towards the back of the auditorium. When I visit Symphony orchestra concerts, I usually close my eyes and get that Phil Spector wall of sound effect, with eyes open my ears tend to follow my eyes if you know what I mean. Agreed. A large orchestral concert is usually the worst place to judge imaging with live music. Small ensembles and, particularly, outdoor concerts (unamplified) are, far and away, the best. Quote The best soundstage and imaging I ever experienced was courtesy of a small helping of nature's tobacco from a 3 way pair of Gales. Mobile Fidelity Pressing of Deja Vu by CSN&Y. Neil Young's voice was about 6 ft in all directions and his harmonica was about 3 feet high and 9 feet wide, which makes sense stuck as it was in his 6ft gob, it was like listening to a full blown Luna Park carousel in the lounge room, that little additive wasn't in the spec sheet as far as I could see. A poorly chosen valve preamp will often cause that effect, due to excessive microphonics. Gale 401s are capable of excellent imaging, when correctly setup and driven. Personally, I'm not excited by MFSL recordings. That includes LPs. Sheffield Labs made some of the best. Edited June 22, 2017 by Zaphod Beeblebrox 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
o2so Posted June 23, 2017 Share Posted June 23, 2017 Soundstage is the word that so called audiophiles use when they want to convince themselves (or others, if they are selling) that the new costly piece of gear they have just purchased was worth the money.Just kidding.Sent from my SM-P585Y using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Posted June 23, 2017 Share Posted June 23, 2017 1 minute ago, o2so said: Just kidding. No I know you're not Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GregWormald Posted June 23, 2017 Share Posted June 23, 2017 The sound stage from my system improved markedly with the upgrade of my SGR CX4F speakers and amps to current drive. Wider stereo with improved central image and instrument positioning within the wider stage. It was as though a layer of veiling had been taken away. Greg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
legend Posted June 25, 2017 Share Posted June 25, 2017 (edited) In my experience 'depth' of soundstage usually increases with increasing 'euphonic' (low order) distortion - but this often leads to poorer precision of positioning. Edited June 25, 2017 by legend clarification Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Volunteer sir sanders zingmore Posted June 25, 2017 Volunteer Share Posted June 25, 2017 9 minutes ago, legend said: In my experience 'depth' of soundstage usually increases with increasing 'euphonic' (low order) distortion - but this often leads to poorer precision of positioning. I moved my speakers quite a long way into the room, into a Cardas 'golden ratio" configuration. Im my room that felt almost near field. The increase in depth of soundstage was amazing The increased precision of positioning was likewise, amazing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andyr Posted June 25, 2017 Share Posted June 25, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, Sir Sanders Zingmore said: I moved my speakers quite a long way into the room, into a Cardas 'golden ratio" configuration. Im my room that felt almost near field. The increase in depth of soundstage was amazing The increased precision of positioning was likewise, amazing Absolutely, Trevor! Unfortunately, in my room - as you know - I can't move the panels out any further ... otherwise, instead of 'nearfield' they would be super-sized headphones! What I think Rod is on about is that toob amps - which typically have higher levels of 2nd order HD, compared to a ss amp - often deliver quite a deep sound stage. Andy Edited June 25, 2017 by andyr 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Volunteer sir sanders zingmore Posted June 25, 2017 Volunteer Share Posted June 25, 2017 2 minutes ago, andyr said: Absolutely, Trevor! Unfortunately, in my room - as you know - I can't move the panels out any further ... otherwise, instead of 'nearfield' they would be super-sized headphones! What I think Rod is on about is that toob amps - which typically have higher levels of 2nd order HD, compared to a ss amp - often deliver quite a deep sound stage. Andy Gotcha. I thought that valve soundstage was also sometimes caused by microphonics? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andyr Posted June 25, 2017 Share Posted June 25, 2017 4 minutes ago, Sir Sanders Zingmore said: I thought that valve soundstage was also sometimes caused by microphonics? That's an interesting thought - which you may be able to prove to yourself by putting 'tube dampers' (like Herbie makes) onto your LM tubes. Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Volunteer sir sanders zingmore Posted June 25, 2017 Volunteer Share Posted June 25, 2017 3 minutes ago, andyr said: That's an interesting thought - which you may be able to prove to yourself by putting 'tube dampers' (like Herbie makes) onto your LM tubes. Andy I wasn't talking about my tubes specifically, I was recalling something I'd read ages ago. In any event, my recent improvement in soundstage was clearly not caused by the amp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andyr Posted June 25, 2017 Share Posted June 25, 2017 1 minute ago, Sir Sanders Zingmore said: I wasn't talking about my tubes specifically, I was recalling something I'd read ages ago. In any event, my recent improvement in soundstage was clearly not caused by the amp. Clearly! But there will be a few here who will pooh-pooh your findings bcoz you didn't conduct a DBT! (But I believe you! ) Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Volunteer sir sanders zingmore Posted June 25, 2017 Volunteer Share Posted June 25, 2017 18 minutes ago, andyr said: Clearly! But there will be a few here who will pooh-pooh your findings bcoz you didn't conduct a DBT! (But I believe you! ) Andy I doubt that, I really do Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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