Peter_F Posted February 16, 2020 Share Posted February 16, 2020 16 minutes ago, Silver Audiophile said: Calvin is the Hong Kong/China/Taiwan distributor for Duntech and made the statement that the new Princess beats the Sovereign on all aspect. No offence intended, but I'd have to hear that for myself. With exemplary amplifiers driving the Sovereigns I can't see how the Princess could outperform them in every aspect, particularly the LF. In comparison the Princess is a bookshelf speaker standing next the Sovereigns. But, happy to be proven wrong if I ever had the opportunity to compare the pair! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silver Audiophile Posted February 16, 2020 Share Posted February 16, 2020 51 minutes ago, Peter_F said: No offence intended, but I'd have to hear that for myself. With exemplary amplifiers driving the Sovereigns I can't see how the Princess could outperform them in every aspect, particularly the LF. In comparison the Princess is a bookshelf speaker standing next the Sovereigns. But, happy to be proven wrong if I ever had the opportunity to compare the pair! None taken. Other way round, Princess is heavier, taller, wider. Sovereign just longer depth (by 162mm). BTW, Calvin did own and display his heavily modified and improved late series Sovereign for a long while. Had them side by side, didn't take long to conclude. Pics below.. Calvin's listening room. Out with the old, in with the new. But, nothing beats hearing for yourself. I've heard them both. I agree with Calvin wholeheartedly. Sovereign's dimensions and weight: Size Height Width Depth 1875mm (74") 360mm (14") 862mm (34") Weight Per cabinet 125Kg (275lbs) Princess' dimensions and weight: Size Height Width Depth 1900mm 475mm 700mm Weight Per cabinet 140Kg 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guzzista Posted February 16, 2020 Share Posted February 16, 2020 1 hour ago, Silver Audiophile said: Recently, I spoke with Calvin regarding his thoughts on Princess, whilst inquiring about his line of Cable FM speaker cables. Calvin is the Hong Kong/China/Taiwan distributor for Duntech and made the statement that the new Princess beats the Sovereign on all aspect. For that reason the new Princess is now their new Reference. The new Duntech Princess is definitely a masterpiece, having been one of Calvin's guests at last years HK show I spent many hours over the three days listening to them powered by a pair of Audia Flight mono block amplifiers. I have also spent some time listening to them at the Duntech audition room powered by a pair of Pass Labs amps and even as a very happy owner of the Signature Series Senators I aspire to one day own the Princess'. There is no doubt in my mind that Duntech have come a very long way in speaker design and quality since I first listened to the Sovereign's powered by an ME1500 amp 30 years ago at Pirami Hi-Fi in Burwood, Sydney. If anyone reading this is planning on attending this years HK show then I encourage them to take some time to visit the Duntech/Halcro/CFM room and be prepared to be very surprised and extremely impressed. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vinilink Posted February 16, 2020 Share Posted February 16, 2020 2 hours ago, Guzzista said: The new Duntech Princess is definitely a masterpiece, having been one of Calvin's guests at last years HK show I spent many hours over the three days listening to them powered by a pair of Audia Flight mono block amplifiers. I have also spent some time listening to them at the Duntech audition room powered by a pair of Pass Labs amps and even as a very happy owner of the Signature Series Senators I aspire to one day own the Princess'. There is no doubt in my mind that Duntech have come a very long way in speaker design and quality since I first listened to the Sovereign's powered by an ME1500 amp 30 years ago at Pirami Hi-Fi in Burwood, Sydney. If anyone reading this is planning on attending this years HK show then I encourage them to take some time to visit the Duntech/Halcro/CFM room and be prepared to be very surprised and extremely impressed. Wow, I used to hang around this shop quite often in 90s, talking to Phil, and the owner (can't remember their names). I didn't know they were retailer for Duntech then? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guzzista Posted February 16, 2020 Share Posted February 16, 2020 1 minute ago, vinilink said: Wow, I used to hang around this shop quite often in 90s, talking to Phil, and the owner (can't remember their names). I didn't know they were retailer for Duntech then? Yes, they had a listening room at the rear left corner of the shop, away from the one with the speaker selector module. The owners name was Gordon, bought my ME750 and ME25 there in 1989. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joz Posted February 16, 2020 Share Posted February 16, 2020 17 hours ago, Silver Audiophile said: None taken. Other way round, Princess is heavier, taller, wider. Sovereign just longer depth (by 162mm). BTW, Calvin did own and display his heavily modified and improved late series Sovereign for a long while. Had them side by side, didn't take long to conclude. Pics below.. Calvin's listening room. Out with the old, in with the new. But, nothing beats hearing for yourself. I've heard them both. I agree with Calvin wholeheartedly. Sovereign's dimensions and weight: Size Height Width Depth 1875mm (74") 360mm (14") 862mm (34") Weight Per cabinet 125Kg (275lbs) Princess' dimensions and weight: Size Height Width Depth 1900mm 475mm 700mm Weight Per cabinet 140Kg I thought they'd be bigger and heavier actually. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jakeyb77 Posted February 17, 2020 Share Posted February 17, 2020 26 minutes ago, joz said: I thought they'd be bigger and heavier actually. If they are too high in price I’d rather have your SGR. At least they are modular and can move the bloody things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uncle Seth Posted February 21, 2020 Share Posted February 21, 2020 On 16/02/2020 at 5:30 PM, Silver Audiophile said: <snipped> I'd like to make 2 points, actually ask two questions (not specifically directed to Silver Audiophile): Does this room appear to be heavily damped, with absorption on the walls and floor (probably ceiling too), and therefore heavily influencing the sound? Did we get an RRP (or SNA RP) on the Princesses, or will I need to sign a waiver first, regarding any pre-existing heart condition? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guzzista Posted February 21, 2020 Share Posted February 21, 2020 1 hour ago, Uncle Seth said: I'd like to make 2 points, actually ask two questions (not specifically directed to Silver Audiophile): Does this room appear to be heavily damped, with absorption on the walls and floor (probably ceiling too), and therefore heavily influencing the sound? Did we get an RRP (or SNA RP) on the Princesses, or will I need to sign a waiver first, regarding any pre-existing heart condition? Seth, I have visited this room, the walls have a velvet covering over panels of 10mm foam sheets, ceiling is about 3mtrs and 2/3rds of the floor is carpeted, so no serious "treatments"; It does sound very good indeed. Having listened to the new Princess a number of times during its development I have asked the question of price a number of times, more recently though Duntech have set a price with some change out of AUD$90,000.00 the pair. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frednork Posted February 21, 2020 Share Posted February 21, 2020 (edited) 6 minutes ago, Guzzista said: Seth, I have visited this room, the walls have a velvet covering over panels of 10mm foam sheets, ceiling is about 3mtrs and 2/3rds of the floor is carpeted, so no serious "treatments"; It does sound very good indeed. Having listened to the new Princess a number of times during its development I have asked the question of price a number of times, more recently though Duntech have set a price with some change out of AUD$90,000.00 the pair. Call the crash cart !! STAT! Edited February 21, 2020 by frednork 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kelossus Posted February 21, 2020 Share Posted February 21, 2020 Are the speakers still made in Australia? For whatever reason I would prefer that the current speakers aren't marketed as Duntech's as they have very little to do with the original company. That may seem naive but that's how I feel. Comparisons between the Sovereign's and the newer Princesses are somewhat redundant given one speaker is around 35 years older then the other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frednork Posted February 21, 2020 Share Posted February 21, 2020 2 minutes ago, kelossus said: Comparisons between the Sovereign's and the newer Princesses are somewhat redundant given one speaker is around 35 years older then the other. Not to mention the (ahem) small difference in price Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kelossus Posted February 21, 2020 Share Posted February 21, 2020 1 minute ago, frednork said: Not to mention the (ahem) small difference in price Do you have any idea what the original Sov's retailed for back in the day? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frednork Posted February 21, 2020 Share Posted February 21, 2020 10 minutes ago, kelossus said: Do you have any idea what the original Sov's retailed for back in the day? There is a price list earlier in this thread, around 21k in 94. I know with inflation and indexing etc the relative new price is not dissimilar but if you are comparing the 2 now the current price in today's dollars is the real comparison for me. If I spend x dollars, what level of sq can I get regardless of age. Otherwise need to compare to big Dynaudios , middle wilsons etc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guzzista Posted February 21, 2020 Share Posted February 21, 2020 7 minutes ago, kelossus said: Are the speakers still made in Australia? For whatever reason I would prefer that the current speakers aren't marketed as Duntech's as they have very little to do with the original company. That may seem naive but that's how I feel. Comparisons between the Sovereign's and the newer Princesses are somewhat redundant given one speaker is around 35 years older then the other. I guess comparing a 1978 Toyota Corolla to the current model would be redundant in that case? Of course not when you compare advancements in design and technology to two are completely different, what you can appreciate is the results in the advancement, the same with Duntech. Should the price of the new car cost the same s the 1978 one, NO! There are many design parameters used in today's Duntech designs that were an important part of the "originals" and the current manufacturers focus on the positives of the original designs . I am not trying to defend the manufacturer but simply put forward a different point of view. If one prefers to listen to a 35 year old speaker then that's fine too, there are many people out there with vintage motor vehicles that are quite happy also, but they will never perform like a new one. G Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kelossus Posted February 21, 2020 Share Posted February 21, 2020 7 minutes ago, Guzzista said: I guess comparing a 1978 Toyota Corolla to the current model would be redundant in that case? Yes, it is a redundant comparison. 7 minutes ago, Guzzista said: If one prefers to listen to a 35 year old speaker then that's fine too, there are many people out there with vintage motor vehicles that are quite happy also, but they will never perform like a new one. I agree with you which is why earlier in the thread when someone stated the newer Princesses blows the doors off the 35 year old Sov it's not really a stretch to believe that. Are the speakers still made in Australia? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silver Audiophile Posted February 21, 2020 Share Posted February 21, 2020 (edited) 50 minutes ago, kelossus said: Are the speakers still made in Australia? For whatever reason I would prefer that the current speakers aren't marketed as Duntech's as they have very little to do with the original company. That may seem naive but that's how I feel. Comparisons between the Sovereign's and the newer Princesses are somewhat redundant given one speaker is around 35 years older then the other. Are the speakers still made in Australia? Yes, absolutely still made in Peakhurst, Sydney. Design, assembly, final tweaking and testing For whatever reason I would prefer that the current speakers aren't marketed as Duntech's as they have very little to do with the original company. That may seem naive but that's how I feel. Nothing could be further from the truth. Up until a few years ago, Duntech was still manufacturing the original Sovereigns new. As much a this satisfied customers locally and abroad, the Sovereign was significantly dated in design and engineering reflecting its multi-decade old design. The new Princess, makes it very hard to still sell a 3 decades plus old speakers, obsolete, and designed around drivers equally as a old and no longer made. Comparisons between the Sovereign's and the newer Princesses are somewhat redundant given one speaker is around 35 years older then the other. Again, I would have to disagree. It goes way beyond faithfully following the Duntech first order cross over topology design, sealed cabinet design, and time aligned driver placement philosophy. The Sovereign was Duntech's flagship speakers. Today, it is the Princess. When I heard live both speakers, I can see the inspiration of the new Princess stemming from the Sovereign. It just the Princess is better in every possible way performance wise. Edited February 21, 2020 by Silver Audiophile 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kelossus Posted February 21, 2020 Share Posted February 21, 2020 33 minutes ago, Silver Audiophile said: Yes, absolutely still made in Peakhurst, Sydney. Design, assembly, final tweaking and testing Are the cabinets made, assembled and veneered/finished here? I have heard otherwise. 33 minutes ago, Silver Audiophile said: Nothing could be further from the truth. Up until a few years ago, Duntech was still manufacturing the original Sovereigns new. As much a this satisfied customers locally and abroad, the Sovereign was significantly dated in design and engineering reflecting its multi-decade old design. The new Princess, makes it very hard to still sell a 3 decades plus old speakers, obsolete, and designed around drivers equally as a old and no longer made. Sure if you rang Kiat and he had spare drivers he would build you a pair. The brand have not had a retail presence though. To 99% of the audio community the brand has been defunct for 25 odd years. 33 minutes ago, Silver Audiophile said: Again, I would have to disagree. It goes way beyond faithfully following the Duntech first order cross over topology design, sealed cabinet design, and time aligned driver placement philosophy. The Sovereign was Duntech's flagship speakers. Today, it is the Princess. When I heard live both speakers, I can see the inspiration of the new Princess stemming from the Sovereign. It just the Princess is better in every possible way performance wise. That is not the point I was making. A pair of state of the art, large format $90k speakers should out perform the 35 year old Sovereign. It's not revolutionary to say so. If I were spending 90k on a pair of speakers I would hope to god they would outperform their 35 year old predecessor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guzzista Posted February 21, 2020 Share Posted February 21, 2020 @kelossus when was the last time you have listened to a pair of new Duntech speakers? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kelossus Posted February 21, 2020 Share Posted February 21, 2020 3 minutes ago, Guzzista said: @kelossus when was the last time you have listened to a pair of new Duntech speakers? I haven't but what does that have to do with anything? I am not saying they don't sound excellent, I bet they do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guzzista Posted February 21, 2020 Share Posted February 21, 2020 Just now, kelossus said: I haven't but what does that have to do with anything? I am not saying they don't sound excellent, I bet they do. So then your statements and personal opinions are based on "Theory"? so what is the point you are attempting to make exactly? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kelossus Posted February 21, 2020 Share Posted February 21, 2020 2 minutes ago, Guzzista said: So then your statements and personal opinions are based on "Theory"? so what is the point you are attempting to make exactly? Besides my opinion that a comparison between a 35 year old speaker and a $90k new one is redundant I haven't really put forth any. I don't have a horse in the race but you seem to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guzzista Posted February 21, 2020 Share Posted February 21, 2020 1 minute ago, kelossus said: Besides my opinion that a comparison between a 35 year old speaker and a $90k new one is redundant I haven't really put forth any. I don't have a horse in the race but you seem to. The only horse I am on is that of experience and ownership. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kelossus Posted February 21, 2020 Share Posted February 21, 2020 1 minute ago, Guzzista said: The only horse I am on is that of experience and ownership. I never questioned the new speakers being great. At the price they would want to be. Ahhhh I'm going to step away now. I don't want the back and forth and I have already embarrassed myself enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silver Audiophile Posted February 21, 2020 Share Posted February 21, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, kelossus said: Are the cabinets made, assembled and veneered/finished here? I have heard otherwise. Sure if you rang Kiat and he had spare drivers he would build you a pair. The brand have not had a retail presence though. To 99% of the audio community the brand has been defunct for 25 odd years. That is not the point I was making. A pair of state of the art, large format $90k speakers should out perform the 35 year old Sovereign. It's not revolutionary to say so. If I were spending 90k on a pair of speakers I would hope to god they would outperform their 35 year old predecessor. Are the cabinets made, assembled and veneered/finished here? I have heard otherwise. Internationally sourced. I remember asking the exact same question prior to purchasing of my new Duntech Senators in Sydney in 2018, given the very high quality of the Senator's cabinet finishes compared to my prior new speaker (the Duntech Marquis, I bought around 2008). Numerous Australian cabinet makers were approached. None made the cut. Sure if you rang Kiat and he had spare drivers he would build you a pair. The Dynaudio drivers that made the Sovereigns, had not been production for about a decade (having being made by Dynaudio for 30 years prior to that cease date). However, Duntech had a small supply still left until a few years ago when they made their last complete new Sovereign builds. Some were shipped abroad, some locally here in Australia. Duntech no longer has these drivers. The brand have not had a retail presence though. To 99% of the audio community the brand has been defunct for 25 odd years. When I sat an auditioned the new Senators in 2018, I asked a similar question. As a Duntech Marquis owner at the time, I really like the brand- the neutral uncoloured accurate musical sound signature. It became clear to me, from the answer I received, Duntech will never be a high volume, mass produced, mass marketed, paid sound journal advertisements and journal presence of larger speaker commercial operations. Quality and passion, from small production is Duntech's future. After I purchased my Senator, my friend also ordered a new pair. After the Senator speaker was completed for him, it was tested for frequency response and listen tests. Something wasn't right. The ruler flat response was amiss. The critical listen audition proved something was slightly off with the sound. Everything was dissembled. After much thought, it was the driver to blame. Same high quality Danish driver. A slight variation in the amount of glue for the cones! After communication with the Danish manufacture, the explanation, the new batch of drivers were produced in summer. The factory internal temp is slightly higher and hence more glue oozes from the glue guns. Well, Duntech spent a week to redesign the cross over, and tweak it to the new driver batch. Problem fixed. The advantages of small boutique production runs! When I asked would other European high end manufactures do the same? Answer was of course not! High production runs factories with conveyor belts can't finesse over such fine details. YouTube is filled with examples of high end European speakers retailing for over $30k in Australia being produced in this way. I live in Newcastle. It's a 2 hour drive for me to Duntech Audio in South Sydney or Lane Cove's Sydney Len Wallis. I auditioned the Duntech DSM-15s at Len Wallis Audio, and the Senators at Duntech. I agree, you don't see paid adverts for Duntech's on the back of taxi cabs as you do with some high end European speaker brands. That is not the point I was making. A pair of state of the art, large format $90k speakers should out perform the 35 year old Sovereign. It's not revolutionary to say so. If I were spending 90k on a pair of speakers I would hope to g-d they would outperform their 35 year old predecessor. Certainly, all understood. I remember, the Princess always brings a tear in my eyes in the few opportunities I had to listen to them. Edited February 21, 2020 by Silver Audiophile Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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