Treatment of non dedicated room with big window

[o2so]

Hi guys,

 

I am thinking of treating my room. Now, this poses at least two problems:

1. I do not have a dedicated room, this is my living room so it has to look pretty otherwise you know what wife will do (#divorce)

2. My living room/kitchen is my only option and acoustically has possibly all the problems in the world (see photo). Moving furniture around is NOT an option. Big window as side wall (as big as the whole wall), which at least does not vibrate as it is pretty heavy. Floor Boards with rug. Low gyp-rock ceiling. Massive wall-mounted TV behind speakers. Heavily Asymmetrical. 

 

I did not do any measurements and if possible I'd rather avoid doing so. I am after some advice for a first-pass acoustic treatment to get rid of echo which I can hear when I clap my hands and excessive reflections which turn music into a bit of a shouting blob at high volumes.

 

I saw this and thought it looks pretty enough:

https://www.turramusic.com.au/pages/CatalogueItem.aspx?CIID=5067

 

I could treat front wall (side of TV behind speakers) and back wall, plus keep one/two large panels under the sofa and lean it/these against the window to cover the point of first reflection when I do critical listening. If strictly necessary, I could even put a couple on the ceiling. 

 

I would not use any bass traps/corners because they are ugly and would never be approved. I would try and fix the excessive reflection first (resulting in glare, messed up sounds at higher volumes), then maybe I could throw in a DRC to control bass modes digitally.

 

My question is what do you think? Worth the cash investment? Would you suggest a different type of absorbing/diffusing panels?

 

Oh, I do have planar speakers (which I slide off the wall for critical listening) and a pair of bookshelves (just to make things easier).

 

Any word of advice that are not "buy a new house" or "move to headphones" or "divorce from your wife" would be greatly appreciated.

 

cheers

 

 

 

[PleasantSounds]

Looks like you're hoping that throwing some money at the problem will make it go away....

 

Plenty of constraints in your request! If it was my living room, I would consider one small furniture rearrangement and look at my options after that. I'm talking about moving the 2-seater that stands in the middle of the room, to the window side and that way shifting your setup away from the window and more into the middle of the room. The 2-seater would naturally act as the first reflection absorber, somewhat easing the challenge.

I realise this may require mounting the tv in a different spot, but you could give it a try and make the change only if it works.

 

[joz]

From what can see that window is one of your major culprits.

Drapes!

well it's one of your first reflection points and all that glass is a doosey!

 

then where  you are sitting, you have nothing but more reflective surfaces directly behind your  head.

Would suggest something there.

But of course there is the ceiling also.

 

like you said it's your living space, perhaps tackle one thing at a time.

Start where you think you can get away with it.

[Jventer]

I am playing around with these things at the moment and have similar issues that I cannot really move furniture and don't wish to invest in something that may not work. 

 

I would start with the window, front and back wall.  If window coverings is a possibility. Use a temporary method e.g. tape/ suction cup hooks/whatever and cover the windows with curtains/doona cover/doona etc. See if that helps.  For the front and back walls. There are certain acoustic treatments that are nice looking that can be put on the walls or you can buy stuff at Bunnings etc. & cover it with nice looking material, which may be cheaper.

 

Your solution of having extra under the couches to be taken out is a good solution.

 

AFAIU you are making the room less live, which means absorption. You could try the product you are referring to, but I would research a bit more and shop around. Plenty of info here on SNA

 

 

[Guest Peter the Greek]

We grapled with this in our last home. If we'd stayed I would have covered the entire wall behind the TV in diy 50mm panels in a mutually agreeable fabric (rim trilogy one). 

 

In cases where you have all hard surfaces and the echo is close to unbearable, imho this approach is safe and considered. It won't do any damage to the sound and will provide a massive increase in Sabine count....which will fix most of the annoyance. 

 

Behind the couch would help too. But I'd start with the big wall

 

DIY panels made like these on mass look great imo

 

Edited March 21, 2017 by Peter the Greek

[aechmea]

I would put the speakers at the window end and sit on the other 2-seater.  Leave the equipment stand where it is.    No furniture to be moved and no treatment required, perhaps.

 

Benefits would be that the rear wave from the speakers would bounce off a consistent and symmetric front wall (even if it is glass) and the direct wave would disappear past your head into the void of the kitchen.  I have never tried it, but Maggies can go very close to the side walls because there is a null at 90degrees so the side walls don't matter all that much.

[o2so]

Looks like you're hoping that throwing some money at the problem will make it go away....
 

Precisely. Thanks but cannot put anything in front of window which is in fact that also sliding door to access balcony.


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[o2so]

We grapled with this in our last home. If we'd stayed I would have covered the entire wall behind the TV in diy 50mm panels in a mutually agreeable fabric (rim trilogy one). 
 
In cases where you have all hard surfaces and the echo is close to unbearable, imho this approach is safe and considered. It won't do any damage to the sound and will provide a massive increase in Sabine count....which will fix most of the annoyance. 
 
Behind the couch would help too. But I'd start with the big wall
 
DIY panels made like these on mass look great imo
 

Thanks but have no time or skills to do a good DIY job

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[o2so]

I would put the speakers at the window end and sit on the other 2-seater.  Leave the equipment stand where it is.    No furniture to be moved and no treatment required, perhaps.
 
Benefits would be that the rear wave from the speakers would bounce off a consistent and symmetric front wall (even if it is glass) and the direct wave would disappear past your head into the void of the kitchen.  I have never tried it, but Maggies can go very close to the side walls because there is a null at 90degrees so the side walls don't matter all that much.

Good idea but cannot put things in front of window because I would block access to balcony

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[Darren69]

Filippo, chat to Wavetrain, one of our SNA sponsors. They'll give you some basic no-obligation advice and opinion of costs and go from there.

 

They were a great help to me some years back before they joined the crew here.

[Guest Peter the Greek]

3 hours ago, o2so said:

Thanks but have no time or skills to do a good DIY job

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Getting a nice clean look then will be either impossible, or very expensive. Another option is Acoustic Art Panels (conveniently I have some for sale) or speak with Acoustic Vision...but in my experience with rooms like yours, you need a whole heap and a few pictures hung here and there wont have a enough of an impact IMO.

 

OR ty to find someone that does a 600x600 panel and buy a heap of them. Surround your TV and the wall behind the sofa.

[Jventer]

I agree with Peter.

[o2so]

Filippo, chat to Wavetrain, one of our SNA sponsors. They'll give you some basic no-obligation advice and opinion of costs and go from there.
 
They were a great help to me some years back before they joined the crew here.

I certainly will. Where do I find the contact details?

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[Darren69]

@Wavetrain

 

I have no financial interest with Wavetrain.

Edited March 21, 2017 by Darren69

[Blk plastic]

You can still access the balcony through drapes fitted to a rod across the top of the doors.Spotlight are the kings of that sort of stuff.A cheap and easy fix in my opinion, and they have a large range to choose from. Go on take the little lady curtain shopping.

[Guest Eggcup The Daft]

Looks like yet another case of floorstander in the corner, on top of everything else. If you can't move out of the corner and well away from the side wall into the room, use the standmounts and get a sub for low frequencies. Front or no ports help in these cases as well.

It's definitely curtains over that glass,  and I'd suggest lined ones. Curtains generally don't damp bass and so won't help with the floorstander in the corner. If that rug is to scale, get a bigger one (closer to the speakers, not so far to be under them).

Do those first, and consider treatment behind the seat once you know how those changes sound. In a living room, do the things that look "normal" first.

[Tweaky]

I have/had the same problem with one large 'Wall Width' window.

My problem also included that my room needed to be light controlled, as the only suitable wall which I could project onto and have some sort of a symmetrical surround system was the wall with the window.

 

The solution was curtains on a track system, but these curtains also have 3 pass rubber / latex 'Blockout' material linen loosely from the top [not lining the curtain by having the blockout stitched all the way around the curtain edges ]

The reason I left it loose between the blockout and the curtain is that the gap in between the Blockout and curtain, despite being small, works better as a sound absorber, than if the two materials were stitched together.

 

Simple basics of sound proofing really, although more for noise reduction/absorption both from outside, and from me to neighbors, rather than actual sound proofing, with the added benefit of making the room light tight when a pelmet was added along the top of the curtain to the ceiling.

The other beauty of doing it this way is that you can leave it to any house proud wife to do, let them choose the curtain material, just make sure it has 3 pass blockout lined all the way down, but only stitched to the curtain at the top, where the pleats / curtain railing connectors go.

 

I just went to Spotlight with my curtain width and drop requirement, told them how I wanted them lined and with 3 pass [there are 1 and 2 pass blockouts as well, you don't want them] chose the material, and the woman at the counter did all the calculations on how much material was needed, how much it would cost, and when they would be ready.....easy peasy as they say.

 

As for the rest of your audio playback requirements, I think the next problem you will have after the window will more than likely be the reflections from the coffee table sitting directly in front of you, I don't have a lounge, but several recliners with coffee tables between them, so I don't get that problem of reflections off the coffee table from the main speakers, screwing up the high frequencies bouncing off it.

Push yours out of the way next time you fire up your system and notice the difference in 'Staging' and 'Air around player', you lose all that with early reflections off a coffee table, or they can be severely hampered at least

Edited March 25, 2017 by Tweaky

[Blk plastic]

The coffee  table (as stated above) AND the unit in between the Maggies will be causing reflections. We've been through all this before. If your partner won't let you make a permanent change, that's fair enough, AT LEAST try it one afternoon to see the difference it WILL make.

Having done this myself I found a huge difference in the cohesion, depth,width and clarity it bought to my sound stage.

You can swap out as many components and spend as much money upgrading as you like,it'll all be for nothing if your speakers do not play well with your room.

We all have our limitations within which we function,sometimes tough decisions have to be made.There is no perfect system, there is no perfect room,unless your name is (insert filthy stinking rich person's name here), therefore there will be compromise. What are you prepared to do ,and sound wise, what are you prepared to live with? Simple really.

[o2so]

I have/had the same problem with one large 'Wall Width' window.
My problem also included that my room needed to be light controlled, as the only suitable wall which I could project onto and have some sort of a symmetrical surround system was the wall with the window.
 
The solution was curtains on a track system, but these curtains also have 3 pass rubber / latex 'Blockout' material linen loosely from the top [not lining the curtain by having the blockout stitched all the way around the curtain edges ]
The reason I left it loose between the blockout and the curtain is that the gap in between the Blockout and curtain, despite being small, works better as a sound absorber, than if the two materials were stitched together.
 
Simple basics of sound proofing really, although more for noise reduction/absorption both from outside, and from me to neighbors, rather than actual sound proofing, with the added benefit of making the room light tight when a pelmet was added along the top of the curtain to the ceiling.
The other beauty of doing it this way is that you can leave it to any house proud wife to do, let them choose the curtain material, just make sure it has 3 pass blockout lined all the way down, but only stitched to the curtain at the top, where the pleats / curtain railing connectors go.
 
I just went to Spotlight with my curtain width and drop requirement, told them how I wanted them lined and with 3 pass [there are 1 and 2 pass blockouts as well, you don't want them] chose the material, and the woman at the counter did all the calculations on how much material was needed, how much it would cost, and when they would be ready.....easy peasy as they say.
 
As for the rest of your audio playback requirements, I think the next problem you will have after the window will more than likely be the reflections from the coffee table sitting directly in front of you, I don't have a lounge, but several recliners with coffee tables between them, so I don't get that problem of reflections off the coffee table from the main speakers, screwing up the high frequencies bouncing off it.
Push yours out of the way next time you fire up your system and notice the difference in 'Staging' and 'Air around player', you lose all that with early reflections off a coffee table, or they can be severely hampered at least

Thank you mate, this is very interesting and probably achievable. Would you mind posting a picture of your curtain showing how it looks in reality, so I can submit to the boss?

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[o2so]

I have some paintings on canvas on the back wwall which was thinking to fill with absorbing material. Do you think this would help? Iam now controlling the ass via DSP, and results are ok bass-wise. Iwas hoping Icould reduce a bit the echo though.

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[Happy]

1 minute ago, o2so said:

I have some paintings on canvas on the back wwall which was thinking to fill with absorbing material. Do you think this would help? Iam now controlling the ass via DSP, and results are ok bass-wise. Iwas hoping Icould reduce a bit the echo though.

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The painting is not acoustically transparent. Wouldn't help. And the thickness would be pretty minimal I'd have thought anyway.

[Tweaky]

2 hours ago, o2so said:

 

Thank you mate, this is very interesting and probably achievable. Would you mind posting a picture of your curtain showing how it looks in reality, so I can submit to the boss?

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I loaned my Camera out ATM, so I can't take any new shots, but here are a few I took to show a mate how I got around running one long HDMI cable and speaker cable to 4 rear speakers via some conduit attached to concrete walls

 

You can see the curtains with the window open 1st shot, then again from another angle with them closed and the PJ screen lowed in front of it in the 2nd shot.

 

I had the curtains made with a shorter drop than would normally be the case, as I had ones prior to this that went closer to the floor, and I found they wouldn't close properly due to catching on all the different cables coming from the TV Ariel / surround amp.

 

The third photo shows the screen with a projected image on it during the day [the Sun would have been shining directly into the lounge room when I took the photo], you can see the Black pelmet at the top stopping light leaking between the ceiling and the top of the curtains, that Black pelmet usually runs a bit further on either side and would normally cover the whole of the PJ screens white casing, and usually blocks out all light at the top, I had knocked it slightly downwards when I removed the side masking.

 

It does usually have further black masking running down the sides of the screen that would have normally blocked out what light you do see leaking at the sides, but I had removed at the time of the photograph, as I was altering it for a new design, that will allow the side masking to be both removed entirely when not required, and also allow masking of the screen for different aspect ratios.

As for the wall colour [not to everyone's taste, but great for HT use to stop reflected light from the walls], I can get away with a matt purple / dark plum, as during the day I get a lot of light coming through the window, and through the balcony door, but at night, if you want to read something, you need a bright lamp, as it soaks up the light from the ceiling.

[o2so]

I loaned my Camera out ATM, so I can't take any new shots, but here are a few I took to show a mate how I got around running one long HDMI cable and speaker cable to 4 rear speakers via some conduit attached to concrete walls
 
You can see the curtains with the window open 1st shot, then again from another angle with them closed and the PJ screen lowed in front of it in the 2nd shot.
 
I had the curtains made with a shorter drop than would normally be the case, as I had ones prior to this that went closer to the floor, and I found they wouldn't close properly due to catching on all the different cables coming from the TV Ariel / surround amp.
 
The third photo shows the screen with a projected image on it during the day [the Sun would have been shining directly into the lounge room when I took the photo], you can see the Black pelmet at the top stopping light leaking between the ceiling and the top of the curtains, that Black pelmet usually runs a bit further on either side and would normally cover the whole of the PJ screens white casing, and usually blocks out all light at the top, I had knocked it slightly downwards when I removed the side masking.
 
It does usually have further black masking running down the sides of the screen that would have normally blocked out what light you do see leaking at the sides, but I had removed at the time of the photograph, as I was altering it for a new design, that will allow the side masking to be both removed entirely when not required, and also allow masking of the screen for different aspect ratios.
As for the wall colour [not to everyone's taste, but great for HT use to stop reflected light from the walls], I can get away with a matt purple / dark plum, as during the day I get a lot of light coming through the window, and through the balcony door, but at night, if you want to read something, you need a bright lamp, as it soaks up the light from the ceiling.

Thank you, very helpful. Nice room!

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[Tweaky]

Thanks, by the way, the projected image was a low lamp level [Cinema mode] so you can see that even if you did have some light leaks, the image is still as good as your average Hoyts [well from my last visits at least].

Get it totally light tight, and have your PJ calibrated [A HUGE difference] and it's magical ......I started out with several old 3 lens CRT PJ's before going digital, so I know what is easily screwed up in building  a HT.

 

You want to hit it in this order.

1] Light tigtness

2] Ventilation with above - most people forget this, big mistake, very hard to enjoy a movie when you are drowning in your own sweat.

3] Masking around your projected image.....your getting 70% of the impact that is possible if you don't account for it... Grey around a image looks like somebody cut corners, and you will never be happy with it, it will eat away at you till you do it right....so do it right from the start.

4] PJ calibration....HUGE difference.....for the price less than a new replacement PJ lamp, you could purchase Calibration software and a suitable meter to measure with, that not only help keep your PJ looking good as the Lamp wears, but can also be used to calibrate your TV's and PC monitors...... a bit of a 'No Brainer' to factor into the cost IMHO....there is no logical reason NOT to do so if getting a HT.

It's a one off purchase that will last.

5] Your surround sound.....TBH it depends on your room size, and Main stereo pair.

I run Harbeth SHL5's as my main speakers, and have B&W surround set.....after various configurations, I put away the Subwoofer and Center speakers......in MY room, having them active made things worse.

Unless you have a room where you sit around 2.5m/3m from the screen, I doubt running a Center speaker is really worth your while [That's unless you are running small stand mounts ] as your main L+R should do the job perfectly well.

6] Coffee tables at side, and no Glass tops.....even in your peripheral vision [if reflective], they can be a deal breaker and ruin all the effort you put into the rest of the build.

[o2so]

Hi guys. So I purchased 3 broadband absorbing panels for the back wall. The idea is to eliminate reflections because my listening couch) sit right against the wall.

First impression with three panels covering most of the wall is that the sound closed-up a little and bass has become a bit more prominent.
Does this make sense or am I imagining it?
What is the cause? Did I overdo it?

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