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Power Cables a "blind" test


steve u

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3 hours ago, scumbag said:

I hope this offer is only for the assistance during the test? I mean, she's probably a good old bean and just cause she doesn't want to do the test, there's no need to get rid of her? :hijacked:

 

HiFi related assistance only 

But when I visit Steve I am also the chief photographer and fly in fly out Barista in the coffee making duties 

 

But Steve has the best and yumiest Pizza 

 

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Wow this is exciting. I am so looking forward to the results of your test and the great service you are doing for the audiophile community not only those who are SNA members but also to anyone out in the great big world. And hopefully a much more 'reliable' and 'true' result when compared to magazines whose tests often have a direct relationship with advertising revenue.

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@Steve U, this sounds like a great fun idea... I agree with initially just comparing bog standard to one other.
Having spent a fair bit of time mucking around with cables over the years, I belief that you will statistically be able to pick up some difference, let's see how it goes [emoji3]
Personally I have found the greatest difference starting at source (power cables on dac or phono pre-amp) then interconnects from source to pre-amp. Least difference (but still a difference) is speaker cables. YMMV.
Looking forward to what your ears tell you.

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33 minutes ago, rantan said:

 

Well it certainly is a long ( and very civilised ) lead in. Hopefully that will continue and I think many of us ( myself definitely included ) may have learnt from the last thread as to what can happen:)

 

A very long lead-in indeed !!!

When is this test happening? I can't stand the wait :)

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Some results.

 

Cables that were tested in a side by side comparison were.

RK Cable lorad $175- new price

r.k. cablr supra lorad cable

 

Nordost Odin series 1 $12000- second hand price.

th?id=OIP.Mc334fa1a93509626bfc461109f09f

How I evaluated was I took notes and scored cables out of 10 on these listening features.

Resolution, Clarity, Glare, Distortion, Attack, Decay, Sound stage, or a total score out of 70.

 

A CD was played for each trial, test time approx. 40 minutes per cable.

 

There were 3 changes that took place.

And I scored them as

Change 1 -cable scored well, good resolution, large stage, 53/70

Change 2 -not as good as the first one less resolved, bit more glare, smaller stage 43/70

Change 3 -a little harsh at first, but after 30 minutes attack and decay was improved, almost seemed to be playing louder than other cables, soundstage large 51/70

 

My guess was that it was Nordost Odin first and third change, lorad cable was the second change.

 

The actual reveal by faithful lab assistant was...

 

Damn, I have to go on a job, back a bit later.....:unsure:

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Can you replace your wall to power strip/ board cable with Odin so it feeds everything. That's what we did years ago with a mates Odin into my CJ CA200 and B&W 804s. Non blind test, 3 punters in the room and i was a cable skeptic running lamp cord. A month later I had the worst spend ratio ( system vs cables) in the country.

 

Does that old story serve as a suitable appetite whetter?

 

 

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1 hour ago, steve u said:

My guess was that it was Nordost Odin first and third change, lorad cable was the second change.

 

You might be just warming up.... but this is significantly different to the test that was suggested.

 

  • You rate the "change".   So for 3 listens, you will have 2 ratings
  • The rating is either "same", or "different"
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Guest scumbag

Of course, we could always measure frequency response, clipping power, peak current and noise in the amplifier with each power cord in place. I am not on either side of the fence.. Call me a true agnostic. But surely there must be some measurements that show some change in the amplifier as a result of the different cords.

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36 minutes ago, davewantsmoore said:

You might be just warming up.... but this is significantly different to the test that was suggested.

You may not yet be finished testing.

But   and I am not a Statistician, I would think  three changes involving two cable is not enough to draw any conclusions that would be statistically valid.

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Just now, EV Cali said:

You may not yet be finished testing.

But   and I am not a Statistician, I would think  three changes involving two cable is not enough to draw any conclusions that would be statistically valid.

 

And that is an issue why...it is not a scientific journal that is to be published...

It is one man's evaluation doin' it his way...

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4 minutes ago, Rob181 said:

 

And that is an issue why...it is not a scientific journal that is to be published...

It is one man's evaluation doin' it his way...

I realise the limitations of this test but it is being done in the full view of a Hi Fi forum with comments requested by the original poster

 

However I would love to hear any constructive suggestions that could be made to "easily" improve the process". 

 

 

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Guest scumbag

Let's just take it on face value. It is never going to comply with everyone's idea of what a genuine test should be. People on this and other forums even manage to argue about how DBT tests should be done. Then, if a test somehow is done properly, they argue about how statistically correct the results are from the test. It makes my small brain hurt. And it really makes me just want to go back to listening to my music through a stereo that was cobbled together using NO scientific methodology but which I find mostly very satisfying.

 

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11 minutes ago, Rob181 said:

It is one man's evaluation doin' it his way...

 

Suggestions were asked on how to improve the process.

 

If a process is used, and conclusions are drawn....  and the process does not support the conclusions ..... then it is certain that there will be critical comments pointing out that this is the case.

 

I assume this is the reason why suggestions were requested.

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2 hours ago, scumbag said:

I guess that is the crux of the question. 

 

Perhaps the crux of the question is the fact that the powercords being tested are those which are actually delivering the first power that the connected equipment is seeing?

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Of course, we could always measure frequency response, clipping power, peak current and noise in the amplifier with each power cord in place. I am not on either side of the fence.. Call me a true agnostic. But surely there must be some measurements that show some change in the amplifier as a result of the different cords.


... And phase, Rf noise, im distortion.....
or - trust your ears (if your wallet can afford to trust them).
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1 hour ago, davewantsmoore said:

 

You might be just warming up.... but this is significantly different to the test that was suggested.

 

  • You rate the "change".   So for 3 listens, you will have 2 ratings
  • The rating is either "same", or "different"

I originally was going to try and evaluate 4-5 cables.

The feedback and suggestions from the start of the thread, primarily ZB was to trial "best" cable against "entry level" cable, this was basically decided on price. If I could hear any difference continue on.

The assistant was asked to start with any cable and make changes after 30-40 minutes of playing. I sat there and made notes that only I would probably understand. This was done mainly because I thought it would be difficult to have an objective reference point and that is the problem with this kind of test. My ears are going to focus on things that I might have an issue with.

 

My abbreviated results were 1 and 3 were the same cable and 2 was the other cable. 

 

This took about 2 hours of focused listening and for me, wasn't easy. I wasn't drinking, I was tired and was taking notes.

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Steve u--- good on you for sticking your head above the Parapet on this score--but it is an old hoary chestnut that can only end in tears as have all the other attempts to show cause and effect of this over many forums and too many years.

 

Get out while you still can would be my advice :thumb:

 

Other VMV

 

Willco

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1 hour ago, scumbag said:

Of course, we could always measure frequency response, clipping power, peak current and noise in the amplifier with each power cord in place. I am not on either side of the fence.. Call me a true agnostic. But surely there must be some measurements that show some change in the amplifier as a result of the different cords.

 

Indeed.  This is the reason why people who design amplifiers (who measure these and other things) say that power cables generally have zero effect.

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To expand a little on the other cabling, there is a Qrt QX2 line conditioner, going to a Nordost QB8 pin power board. The pre, amp and CD player are all fed by this 8 pin board. The idea of the multiple cable test will be the different cables will be lines up in the QB8 and then swapped in and out of the CD player. The review period for each cable will be approximately 40 minutes.

The CD player was chosen because of ease of access for the assistant and the long start time of the valve pre, but mainly ease of access.

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9 minutes ago, steve u said:

I originally was going to try and evaluate 4-5 cables.

The feedback and suggestions from the start of the thread, primarily ZB was to trial "best" cable against "entry level" cable, this was basically decided on price. If I could hear any difference continue on.

The assistant was asked to start with any cable and make changes after 30-40 minutes of playing. I sat there and made notes that only I would probably understand. This was done mainly because I thought it would be difficult to have an objective reference point and that is the problem with this kind of test. My ears are going to focus on things that I might have an issue with.

 

My abbreviated results were 1 and 3 were the same cable and 2 was the other cable. 

 

This took about 2 hours of focused listening and for me, wasn't easy. I wasn't drinking, I was tired and was taking notes.

 

I see.

 

IMO use a "standard" cord (like one which comes for free in the box)  in place of the 'entry-level' to remove additional uncertainty.

 

As you can see it's going to be a total marathon to get to 10++ trials.      FWIW - I've done lots of testing both ways.

 

Longer testing is sometimes very helpful when trying to answer the question "do I like this".

 

If I am simply trying to answer the question "can I detect difference between A and B" .... then I find that faster switching drastically improves the reliability * ... and also using test signals crafted to highlight differences (such as pink noise, or clicks, etc.) drastically improves the results

 

* = Tested using trials specifically designed to investigate this.   ie.  using tests where there's a difference purposefully added to the A or B signal, which has a known audibility.    (but I was not aware of what this difference was, or that it was being tested)

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24 minutes ago, steve u said:

My abbreviated results were 1 and 3 were the same cable and 2 was the other cable. 

I may have missed something here . 

How you scored the cables would suggest this to you but what cable was actually first ,second and third?

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3 minutes ago, EV Cali said:

I may have missed something here . 

How you scored the cables would suggest this to you but what cable was actually first ,second and third?

I think you have to send off a donation to SNA before the results can be sent to you. :) 

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