Bilbo Posted February 24, 2017 Share Posted February 24, 2017 Having spent quite a bit of time and money rolling valves in my Supratek preamp I can assure you they do sound different. It is also very easy to demonstrate and you don't need "golden ears". 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest scumbag Posted February 25, 2017 Share Posted February 25, 2017 21 hours ago, Lloyd said: I didn't think of that aspect, space travel - of course they must have. I'll ponder on that for a while. I don't know if this is true, but valves were preferred as they could withstand nuclear radiation and extreme heat - unlike SS. Not the physical force, of course, as they can be delicate flowers.. Apparently the tubes could withstand an emr pulse but everything else around them burnt to a crisp. The Russians no longer use tubes in planes as they are too large and consume too much power. And they didn't offer any overall advantage in the event of a nuclear strike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest scumbag Posted February 25, 2017 Share Posted February 25, 2017 11 hours ago, Bilbo said: Having spent quite a bit of time and money rolling valves in my Supratek preamp I can assure you they do sound different. It is also very easy to demonstrate and you don't need "golden ears". A preamp is a perfect vehicle to demonstrate and amplify (literally) any minor differences. I have heard many comments that tube amps can have their power stage tubes changed to lesser effects and that the preamp section of a tube amp is where the big changes occur when tube rolling. And hence where the most money is wisely spent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lloyd Posted February 25, 2017 Share Posted February 25, 2017 40 minutes ago, scumbag said: A preamp is a perfect vehicle to demonstrate and amplify (literally) any minor differences. I have heard many comments that tube amps can have their power stage tubes changed to lesser effects and that the preamp section of a tube amp is where the big changes occur when tube rolling. And hence where the most money is wisely spent. Without consulting guru Earle, I think that the single 6SL7 is the preamp in my Trinity. I agree - hence my previous comment about getting the best - in my case, 6SU7. Deadly smooth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob181 Posted February 25, 2017 Author Share Posted February 25, 2017 13 hours ago, Bilbo said: Having spent quite a bit of time and money rolling valves in my Supratek preamp I can assure you they do sound different. It is also very easy to demonstrate and you don't need "golden ears". Arhhh...but can it be measured...if not...then the naysayers will say it isn't real & is the result of psycho-acoustics... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lloyd Posted February 25, 2017 Share Posted February 25, 2017 (edited) 8 minutes ago, Rob181 said: Arhhh...but can it be measured...if not...then the naysayers will say it isn't real & is the result of psycho-acoustics... Indeed. I can plonk highly regarded valves into my amp and they sound like a bad porno movie. Why? Coz they test below specs. Used, have massive spots on top, whatever. So it is real. Edited February 25, 2017 by Lloyd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest scumbag Posted February 25, 2017 Share Posted February 25, 2017 Actually, who cares what the nay-sayers, say? And if someone really thinks that I am hearing something that's not real, why can't they just leave me alone to my delusions? Why do people feel it is their prerogative to route out any semblance of subjective evaluation of gear? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob181 Posted February 25, 2017 Author Share Posted February 25, 2017 41 minutes ago, Lloyd said: Indeed. I can plonk highly regarded valves into my amp and they sound like a bad porno movie. Why? Coz they test below specs. Used, have massive spots on top, whatever. So it is real. OK I'll bite...thanks for stating the obvious... Please explain the difference sound between a Siemens Cca Gray Shield 63 E88CC & a JJ E88CC tubes when both measure at new spec or better (as most NOS tubes do) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest scumbag Posted February 25, 2017 Share Posted February 25, 2017 55 minutes ago, Lloyd said: Indeed. I can plonk highly regarded valves into my amp and they sound like a bad porno movie. Why? Coz they test below specs. Used, have massive spots on top, whatever. So it is real. And here we go. Assuming this is going the way I think it is, I'm outta here now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lloyd Posted February 25, 2017 Share Posted February 25, 2017 3 minutes ago, Rob181 said: OK I'll bite...thanks for stating the obvious... Please explain the difference sound between a Siemens Cca Gray Shield 63 E88CC & a JJ E88CC tubes when both measure at new spec or better (as most NOS tubes do) I have no freaking idea about those little valves. I do have a SET amp in storage which uses about 6 of them - I haven't flicked it on in maybe 10 years. Needs either selling for a couple hundred bucks or landfill. Big mistake of mine - we live and learn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob181 Posted February 26, 2017 Author Share Posted February 26, 2017 22 hours ago, Lloyd said: I have no freaking idea about those little valves. I do have a SET amp in storage which uses about 6 of them - I haven't flicked it on in maybe 10 years. Needs either selling for a couple hundred bucks or landfill. Big mistake of mine - we live and learn. The tubes were used as an example...apply the analogy to any NOS tube Vs current production...another I know is EL 34's for example... I bought from Russia some NOS Tesla EL 34's & they sound significantly better than ANY other EL 34 that I have heard... Yet that should not be the case... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Qwertyqaz Posted February 26, 2017 Share Posted February 26, 2017 14 minutes ago, Rob181 said: The tubes were used as an example...apply the analogy to any NOS tube Vs current production...another I know is EL 34's for example... I bought from Russia some NOS Tesla EL 34's & they sound significantly better than ANY other EL 34 that I have heard... Yet that should not be the case... Where can I get those from. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soundwise Posted February 26, 2017 Share Posted February 26, 2017 +1 for the bad boys. I love this tube.. Only ever measure them for gain matching .. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zaphod Beeblebrox Posted February 26, 2017 Share Posted February 26, 2017 On 2/25/2017 at 2:18 PM, Rob181 said: Arhhh...but can it be measured...if not...then the naysayers will say it isn't real & is the result of psycho-acoustics... I don't think ANYONE has disputed that valves sound different to each other. Such differences are readily measurable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zaphod Beeblebrox Posted February 26, 2017 Share Posted February 26, 2017 On 2/25/2017 at 3:16 PM, Rob181 said: OK I'll bite...thanks for stating the obvious... Please explain the difference sound between a Siemens Cca Gray Shield 63 E88CC & a JJ E88CC tubes when both measure at new spec or better (as most NOS tubes do) No problems. Present the measurements of the two different valves and I will explain why they sound different. Measurements should include: * A complete set of amplification curves, over the expected operating range. * Noise figures. * Microphonic figures. * Distortion curves and the spectral distribution of that distortion, over the expected range of operation. Those data will tell us a great deal about how valves sound different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soundwise Posted February 26, 2017 Share Posted February 26, 2017 (edited) @Zaphod Beeblebrox when it comes to the bad boys I have to draw the line here. Any measurements relating to this tube are irrelevant and unnecessary. They are for pure enjoyment and if anyone can't hear differences then they need to get their ears measured. Edited February 26, 2017 by Soundwise 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zaphod Beeblebrox Posted February 26, 2017 Share Posted February 26, 2017 1 minute ago, Soundwise said: @Zaphod Beeblebrox when it comes to the bad boys I have to draw the line here. Any measurements relating to this tube are irrelevant and unnecessary. They are for pure enjoyment and if anyone can't hear differences then they need to get their ears measured. That would be what is termed: 'a strawman'. The question was posed about what measurements could predict the sound of a particular valve. I responded accordingly. These things are entirely predictable and measurable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lloyd Posted February 26, 2017 Share Posted February 26, 2017 1 hour ago, Rob181 said: The tubes were used as an example...apply the analogy to any NOS tube Vs current production...another I know is EL 34's for example... I bought from Russia some NOS Tesla EL 34's & they sound significantly better than ANY other EL 34 that I have heard... Yet that should not be the case... I can suggest new production Electro Harmonix big bottle EL34s. They are awesome. Must be matched and high ip for home hi fi. They are new production of the old Sylvania big bottles - Eddie Van Halen's choice - see link below. I have a bunch of them, but they are not matched. While suggested, this is not a recommendation, as reliability is an issue with the new EHs - in a quad, after less than a year, 3 were fine but one went snuff. http://www.cathedralstone.net/Pages/Syl6CA7.htm I have mentioned kt77 as I have had them for years with no issues. Maybe I got a good quad. This is an example, but would not touch, as specs are not included, and sounds dodgy.http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Matched-Quads-Genalex-Gold-Lion-KT77-tubes-Reissue-NEW-/162354955005?hash=item25cd1c02fd:m:mqmpjm22ieAlkuG87iREG4Q Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Volunteer sir sanders zingmore Posted February 26, 2017 Volunteer Share Posted February 26, 2017 34 minutes ago, Soundwise said: @Zaphod Beeblebrox when it comes to the bad boys I have to draw the line here. Any measurements relating to this tube are irrelevant and unnecessary. They are for pure enjoyment and if anyone can't hear differences then they need to get their ears measured. I don't get the angst here. This seems to be one of the few areas where the objectivists and subjectivist s are in heated agreement. You can hear differences and zaphod says they are measurable. It's good to agree for once, no? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwhouston Posted February 26, 2017 Share Posted February 26, 2017 I haven't read al the posts to this point but being a long time tube amp builder (45 years) I would say they all sound different. By that I mean a Electro-Hamonics 300B will sound diffent form JT Full Music SE 300B with a price difference of $1100! If heard and owned both. Each tube, by each manufacturer is made "thier" way. But cheap tubes may sound similar as do highend expensive tubes may sound similar. Think what you want to pay and look for well respected tubes in that price range. Don't be fooled that old or NOS tubes are always better than modern day tubes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob181 Posted February 26, 2017 Author Share Posted February 26, 2017 1 hour ago, mwhouston said: I haven't read al the posts to this point but being a long time tube amp builder (45 years) I would say they all sound different. By that I mean a Electro-Hamonics 300B will sound diffent form JT Full Music SE 300B with a price difference of $1100! If heard and owned both. Each tube, by each manufacturer is made "thier" way. But cheap tubes may sound similar as do highend expensive tubes may sound similar. Think what you want to pay and look for well respected tubes in that price range. Don't be fooled that old or NOS tubes are always better than modern day tubes. I guess the point I have been trying to make (quite unsuccessfully to date) is that all EL 34 tubes (for example...the tube type is NOT relevant) are made to a known set of specifications...every tube that meets/surpasses these specs then becomes available for sale...to operate within that specification to perform a determined function... The engineer types will then say these tubes will sound the same...the point I have been trying to make is that they don't...using the EL 34's as my example...the NOS Russian Tesla's I bought sound significantly better than those they replaced...all tubes met or surpassed all specs on a quality tube tester... Aha...some will say...psycho-acoustics at work...I can assure you that was not the case...I was sent 4 & if they measured at spec or better...& sounded better...then I would purchase the other 46...trust me when I tell you the last thing I wanted to do was purchase 46 tubes from an unknown Russian...though to give credit where it is due...he did everything he said he would... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zaphod Beeblebrox Posted February 26, 2017 Share Posted February 26, 2017 (edited) 55 minutes ago, Rob181 said: I guess the point I have been trying to make (quite unsuccessfully to date) is that all EL 34 tubes (for example...the tube type is NOT relevant) are made to a known set of specifications...every tube that meets/surpasses these specs then becomes available for sale...to operate within that specification to perform a determined function... Not quite. An EL34 is designed to operate WITHIN a band of parameters (for instance: the transconductance is specc'd within the range of 9000 ~ 11000umhos) . However, there is no law that prevents a manufacturer from departing from those parameters. Additionally, some manufacturers may decide (or have decided) to exceed the unwritten parameters (and there are many unwritten ones), to ensure his/her EL34 is superior to others. Quote The engineer types will then say these tubes will sound the same...the point I have been trying to make is that they don't...using the EL 34's as my example...the NOS Russian Tesla's I bought sound significantly better than those they replaced...all tubes met or surpassed all specs on a quality tube tester... I know of NO engineer who has ever made such a claim. Not one. And that includes one of my electronics instructors, who was on the design team that made the original GE-MOV KT88. He carefully explained how and why the KT88 was a superior valve back in the day. Manufacturing tolerances and material selection was the best available. As a consequence, the KT88 SOUNDED better, because it MEASURED better. Quote Aha...some will say...psycho-acoustics at work...I can assure you that was not the case...I was sent 4 & if they measured at spec or better...& sounded better...then I would purchase the other 46...trust me when I tell you the last thing I wanted to do was purchase 46 tubes from an unknown Russian...though to give credit where it is due...he did everything he said he would... And again: Psycho-acoustics has NOTHING to do with it. Valves sound different due to the reasons I previously elucidated.Those differences are measurable and quantifiable. Listeners know it and engineers know it. NO ONE has ever claimed that two valves, from different manufacturers cannot sound different in a low NFB environment. It has been well known for decades. Edited February 26, 2017 by Zaphod Beeblebrox Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davewantsmoore Posted February 26, 2017 Share Posted February 26, 2017 On 25/02/2017 at 2:18 PM, Rob181 said: Arhhh...but can it be measured...if not...then the naysayers will say it isn't real & is the result of psycho-acoustics... You keep bringing this up like there is some sort of controversy about it. It's just a plain and boring fact. Differences in an electronic circuits (ie. a different tube) which are audible can be measured, and they are millions of times bigger than the smallest things which could be measured. Simple eh?!. No. There are lots of different things which could be measured in an amplifier .... and compounding this exponentially, is the notion that most things which are important, aren't "static". You're interested in how something varies, when something else varies.... and how that changes, with respect to something else. A simplistic example = change in "distortion", with frequency, with drive level. Which "distortion"? You might be interested in whole list of them. On 25/02/2017 at 3:16 PM, Rob181 said: Please explain the difference sound between a Siemens Cca Gray Shield 63 E88CC & a JJ E88CC tubes when both measure at new spec or better (as most NOS tubes do) That simple. They don't measure identically. The change of the valve causes the signal which is coming out of the amplifier to be different (to the other valve). Sorry - I hope I'm not "stating the obvious". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davewantsmoore Posted February 26, 2017 Share Posted February 26, 2017 5 hours ago, Rob181 said: I bought from Russia some NOS Tesla EL 34's & they sound significantly better than ANY other EL 34 that I have heard... Yet that should not be the case... You'll find lots of tubes sound very different. Whether tube X sounds "good" or "bad" will depend on the design of the circuit (and how that fits with the specific difference in the valve) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lloyd Posted February 26, 2017 Share Posted February 26, 2017 (edited) This is kinda an old link (over 10 years), but for those pedants amongst us who are not engineers it makes for a jolly good read if you have a spare hour or so. 6SN7 only.http://www.head-fi.org/t/117677/the-reference-6sn7-thread Edit - outside of Australia those glass things are called tubes. Americans must love their tubes. Edited February 26, 2017 by Lloyd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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