2nd Hand AV Receiver Thoughts

[J1N80Y]

Hey guys, been a member for a little while but looking to become more active on the forums.

 

I currently have a Denon AVR-3311 which I bought years ago and while it's working well it happens to be the device which I haven't ever thought about upgrading. Currently my Denon AVR-3311 is connected (HT Bypass) to my Parasound P5 Preamp.

 

I've noticed a couple things when reading through the forums about AVR's:

• Unless I've just plained missed them, I don't see many 2nd hand AV Receivers. Why is that? Is it because the advances in technology a minimal each year?
• AV Receivers don't seem to hold their value. Another by-product of companies flooding the market with product that has a minimal advances in technology?
• Will an AVR that supports Balance interconnects make a big difference?

 

Thanks all.

[POV]

What is that you are looking to achieve with an AV Receiver upgrade?

[powerav]

30 minutes ago, J1N80Y said:

Is it because the advances in technology a minimal each year?

This is why the AVR keeps on dropping in value, everyone wants the latest and greatest.

I don't think I would buy a brand new one again, prefer refurbs. Since you have a p5 and a power amp, you should look at the integra refurb range as just about all models come with pre outs.

[betty boop]

40 minutes ago, J1N80Y said:

Hey guys, been a member for a little while but looking to become more active on the forums.

 

I currently have a Denon AVR-3311 which I bought years ago and while it's working well it happens to be the device which I haven't ever thought about upgrading. Currently my Denon AVR-3311 is connected (HT Bypass) to my Parasound P5 Preamp.

 

I've noticed a couple things when reading through the forums about AVR's:

• Unless I've just plained missed them, I don't see many 2nd hand AV Receivers. Why is that? Is it because the advances in technology a minimal each year?
• AV Receivers don't seem to hold their value. Another by-product of companies flooding the market with product that has a minimal advances in technology?
• Will an AVR that supports Balance interconnects make a big difference?

 

Thanks all.

 

there have been considerable advances on the AVR front. from your 3311 which I think had 3D video handling, but there have been new hdmi standards since and new audio codecs including 3D audio and also up sampling ability to the new standards. similarly with streaming and media playback capability. So yeah in capability and quality of end result there are certainly gains possible if you did upgrade. and AVRSs tend to be central hubs to systems so gains there tend to go right through...

 

however as with anything in life not necessarily everyone wants to be on the upgrade band wagon. my dad for instance is quite happy with a 3808 I bought him when it was already superseded. his needs are pretty basic though he watches dvd/blu-ray a bit of tv and some stuff off the apple tv all of which the 3808 is capable off.

 

there are ways to get around not upgrading your unit...eg if wanting to upgrade to 4k and such there is no driving need to upgrade the avr.. most players come with a legacy avr hdmi out which can feed the avr for audio and video you go straight to display. yes you will miss out on 3D audio for instance however not everyone ... infact very few people want to make holes in their ceilings for height speakers so certainly if there isnt a pressing there ...no need to upgrade ....

 

however leaving aside newer capabilities ... if do want to get gains in dacs, power stages, analog capability newer processing etc by all means there can be gains going up eg in the denon range let alone just because it is a newer more capable unit you are gong to.

 

eg even if not buying a newer unit... if you looked at the model up from what you have in the 4311 it has a better power stage and more sophisticated dac, power supplies newer more upto date audyssey xt32 eq ... all of which would be of benefit 

 

so just comes down to what you are chasing...

 

not many about ? well this is predominately a hifi forum, they do come up now and there. am pretty sure a newer denon is going for sale and quite cheaply... like with anything a timing thing... things just never seem to come up for sale when you happen to be looking  

[firefly0071]

One way of saving is to purchase the previous year model when the model is discounted as I did (also second hand from a SNA member).

[WhakPak]

Just go and buy a Trinnov Altitude then you won't need to worry about upgrading again 

[Bunno77]

@marinemania2002 AVR and P5 HT bypass pairing in opening comment.

[J1N80Y]

15 hours ago, Drew said:

What is that you are looking to achieve with an AV Receiver upgrade?

To be honest, I think it's the upgraditis and being surounded by too many SNA members hahaha. If I really take the time to think about it then given my current setup I don't really need to upgrade. The Denon AVR-3311 is the piece of equipment that I haven't ever thought about upgrading so maybe I feel it's being left behind while my other components are always changing..

 

15 hours ago, powerav said:

This is why the AVR keeps on dropping in value, everyone wants the latest and greatest.

I don't think I would buy a brand new one again, prefer refurbs. Since you have a p5 and a power amp, you should look at the integra refurb range as just about all models come with pre outs.

At the risk of sounding ignorant, could you please tell me a bit more about Integra? I've predominantly always looked at Denon, Marantz and Yamaha. Am I right in the understanding that Integra is Onkyo's higher end electronics line and it's a case of similar specs but the use of higher quality components and longer warranty? Where would I be able look at the Integra refurb range?

 

@:) al Appreciate your detailed reply Al, absolutely right about things not coming up for sale when you are looking! And yes I do sometimes forget this is a HIFI forum 

 

9 hours ago, bunno77 said:

@marinemania2002 AVR and P5 HT bypass pairing in opening comment.

 

Interesting note on this. In the Parasound P5 Manual it says that when the P5 is turned off, the HT Bypass should automatically work however this does not work for me. When I have the P5 turned off, sound only comes out of my rear speakers. It is only when I have my P5 turned on and in the Bypass input that the system works as it should. Might be a topic for another post.

[powerav]

4 hours ago, J1N80Y said:

Where would I be able look at the Integra refurb range?

 

http://stores.ebay.com.au/Amber-Technology-Clearance-Store/Integra-AV-Recievers-/_i.html?_fsub=9099237017

They come and go on a regular basis, better than 2nd hand IMO as the warranty is excellent. Service centres all around the country.

[J1N80Y]

Thanks @powerav , really appreciate the link. Another hole in the wallet coming up!

Edited January 12, 2017 by J1N80Y

[AMCNAD]

It does appear to be the case that more AVR's come up for sale on DTVForum.info

[ALH]

On 12/01/2017 at 4:45 PM, powerav said:

http://stores.ebay.com.au/Amber-Technology-Clearance-Store/Integra-AV-Recievers-/_i.html?_fsub=9099237017

They come and go on a regular basis, better than 2nd hand IMO as the warranty is excellent. Service centres all around the country.

Actually, this might be the cheapest way to acquire an ATMOS AV receiver...

[powerav]

56 minutes ago, ALH said:

Actually, this might be the cheapest way to acquire an ATMOS AV receiver...

Sure is, I have my eye on one. The DTR x.7 series with Atmos and DTS X are starting to pop up.

[Tweaky]

Having a perfectly working Yamaha receiver at the moment, it's only a few years old, but I'm soon to upgrade my visuals to 4K, it looks like I'm going to have to bite the bullet once again........ I can work around it with one source in the manner AL mentions, which will suffice for the moment, but it is disappointing that a lot of the advances can't be applied via a simple internet update, which I'm sure some could, but just aren't so the manufacturers can keep selling new units

 

I've just been on Ebay looking to see what possible worth it my current receiver might be worth.......think I might as well keep it and try to daisy chain it somehow to the new one when I get it.....although I imagine using the remote will probably effect both amps at the same time, which would be a nightmare to work out WTF the signal had been routed to.

 

[Nobbygon]

What's the avg life of a solid AV receiver / amp these days?

[powerav]

6 hours ago, Angus R said:

What's the avg life of a solid AV receiver / amp these days?

about the same length as a piece of string

[jarrods]

I have a Yamaha RX-V3071 and would like to go up a few years to the RX-A3040 but seems impossible to find them second-hand in AU.  Maybe not many sold or as J1N80Y pointed out with minimal advances in technology each year people would just hold on to what they have.  I looked into the latest model RX-A3060 but it does not have the multi-in audio sockets that I like to use from my Oppo BDP-105.  That is a step back to me.  Maybe wait to see what the UDP-205 and RX-A3070(?) have to offer; see who has better DACs.

[betty boop]

2 hours ago, jarrods said:

I looked into the latest model RX-A3060 but it does not have the multi-in audio sockets that I like to use from my Oppo BDP-105.

 

if you mean pre ins so can feed signal off the 105 ?

 

 

then am not really surprised if yamaha have dropped this option on the 3060.

 

and since  because you would be much better off feeding in over hdmi for multichannel audio. 

 

multichannel in was really only useful on old legacy non hdmi pre amps at the dawn of blu-ray and where wanted to hook up a player that could use to decode formats convert to analog to pass to the avr. or in the very very early days of multichannel audio with sacd/dvda pre hdmi where there was no other way to feed multichannel audio than over analog.

 

the issues with analogs are numerous. one avrs are generally not really great in that realm, the quality of analog stages power supplies pre amp stages etc not really great to do justice...then there were the limited post processing ability once in the analog domain and being limited with what the player can do and then the issues with bass management which it introduced. which involved the bass boosting and cutting that was required to not introduce distortion in signals. all really not great for end result. then there is the additional cost of multichannel analogs and opportunities of noise, hum earthing interference they also tend to bring with them.

 

hdmi at end of it for multichannel signals is really the best way to go these days. the other bonus of hdmi is player quality is no longer a huge concern and can use just about any player these days to great end result. 

 

so personally ... I would not ... limit your choices by eliminating those that dont have multi channel pre ins, as really they are no longer necessary.

 

pre outs on other hand. I would nt get an avr without them...as otherwise it limits upgrade options if ever wanting to improve on the power stage of an avr. which most can be improved upon and easily and economically.

[PositivelyMusicallyGeared]

3 hours ago, jarrods said:

I have a Yamaha RX-V3071 and would like to go up a few years to the RX-A3040 but seems impossible to find them second-hand in AU.  Maybe not many sold or as J1N80Y pointed out with minimal advances in technology each year people would just hold on to what they have.  I looked into the latest model RX-A3060 but it does not have the multi-in audio sockets that I like to use from my Oppo BDP-105.  That is a step back to me.  Maybe wait to see what the UDP-205 and RX-A3070(?) have to offer; see who has better DACs.

 

 From memory, it was dropped from 3040 on, one of the reasons some people walked away from Yamaha for other options.

 

 

[jarrods]

Can't use HDMI if you wish to use the DACs/Decoders in your player.  I have compared the DACs in my Oppo BDP-105 to those in the RX-A3071 and there is no comparison.  Using the multi-ins avoids the Burr Brown DACs but also bypasses all the other crud I don’t want like YPAO (I use dbx), Adaptive DRC and the fluffy DSP processing.  The multi's go straight into the Denon R2A15220FP (8-Channel electronic volume with 11 input selector) chips then straight to the power amps/pre-outs.

 

I don’t know who will have better sounding DAC's Oppo UDP-205 or Yammy RX-A3070 but I don’t want to risk being blocked out from accessing the analogue signal path.

[jarrods]

11 minutes ago, PositivelyMusicallyGeared said:

 

 From memory, it was dropped from 3040 on, one of the reasons some people walked away from Yamaha for other options.

 

 

Yeah I went though all models RX-A3xxx / RX-V3xxx released since my 3071 and the inputs disappeared on the 3050/3079.  Does not affect most users who just like to plug in the HDMI simple connection.  Trying to get a balance between HT and reasonable 2 ch (using Oppo for audio disks).

[betty boop]

24 minutes ago, jarrods said:

Can't use HDMI if you wish to use the DACs/Decoders in your player.  I have compared the DACs in my Oppo BDP-105 to those in the RX-A3071 and there is no comparison.  Using the multi-ins avoids the Burr Brown DACs but also bypasses all the other crud I don’t want like YPAO (I use dbx), Adaptive DRC and the fluffy DSP processing.  The multi's go straight into the Denon R2A15220FP (8-Channel electronic volume with 11 input selector) chips then straight to the power amps/pre-outs.

 

I don’t know who will have better sounding DAC's Oppo UDP-205 or Yammy RX-A3070 but I don’t want to risk being blocked out from accessing the analogue signal path.

 

hi Jarrod.... they still give you 2ch analogs in, however ... what they have eliminated is the multi channel in, and hopefully it is clear why ? theyre basically telling you it isn't worth it on this machine and you are better off using hdmi in. (for all the reasons I listed). 

 

as to dacs on the 205 and and the yammy 3070 i would suggest aim a lot lot higher on yammies as its not just about dacs as I mentioned it is the quality of the analog stages, power supplies etc. that will end up compromising things on the analog side if feeding off the oppo. the oppo 205 I have no doubt like the 105 will be a top flight machine. but you need to then do its output justice to get best from it.

 

if analog and 2ch is your goal, note terryO's journey below where with a 2ch pure analog integrated he " noticed a big improvement in SQ from the Yamaha RXA3060" which is saying something given its yamahas top of the line

AVRs just cant be everything to all people unfortunately. but it doesnt mean you cant progress further with things