MM vs. MC?

[blakey72]

I've always had MM carts but have been looking at MC's lately, particularly the Hana range. 

 

What is the difference sound wise? The MC's seem to be a lot more expensive on average. Are they really a better sounding cart? 

 

Blake.

[rockpig]

Just depends on which MC and MM you are comparing.

 

I started with a Garrott Brothers P77i MM ($500) cart then went to an Ortofon Rondo Bronze ($1,200) which was better.

But then went back to a MM with a Garrott Brothers Optim Ruby FGS ($1,200 on special) and it to me sounds better than the MC Ortofon.

 

So while it is generally considered/assumed MC is better than MC there are exceptions to the rule.

[arthur63]

I've also wondered about the sound of MC cartridges.

At the moment I'm using an Ortofon 2M Bronze and have the Black stylus. Very happy with the sound of the Ortofon but thought about the alternatives.

Don't forget you'll need a phono stage that can accommodate the lower output of a MC cartridge.

 

[Guest]

I think as a general rule, a better cartridge is better than one that is not better. But that's not hard and fast.

[mloutfie]

Plus depend how good your phono on the MC part

[andyr]

3 hours ago, blakey72 said:

I've always had MM carts but have been looking at MC's lately, particularly the Hana range. 

 

What is the difference sound wise? The MC's seem to be a lot more expensive on average. Are they really a better sounding cart? 

 

Blake.

 

Reading the specs on your Plinius 9200, it seems it can accommodate typical LOMCs of 0.3 - 0.5mV output.  So you can choose either MM/MI or LOMC.

 

"On average" yes, LOMCs cost more than MMs - but 'expensive' MMs can certainly sound better than a lot of LOMCs.  For instance, my Stanton WOS CS100 (very difficult to find but only, AIUI, a bit above the more readily available 980/981HZS in SQ) I find almost as good as my Benz LP.  Which was a USD5000 cart when I bought it 10 years ago.

 

Then there is also the Grado Statement Statement1 - a USD2500 (MI) cartridge - which will kill many LOMCs which cost a lot more.

 

So I would say a LOMC is not automatically better than an MM.

 

Andy

 

[SAVI Systems]

There is no fixed rules for which is better. Matching cartridge to arm is the most important (actual cartridge weight + compliance).
As a very very general rule (assuming both carts are similar in quality) it could be said that MC is a little more airy and detailed in the treble... And a good MM is little better bass->mid integration and boogie factor.... Many exceptions to this.

Perhaps it is also good to know that MM carts you can replace the stylus when it is worn (and even get a better stylus profile in some cases), whereas MC you need to send the whole cartridge off for a re tip.

Some of the high end older MM carts are excellent (Technics 205 series, Shure V15mk3 and later are some I have managed to grab and they are stunning with a Jico SAS stylus replacement)

[catman]

G'day all, I realise that this general subject is frequently discussed with often very polarised opinions, but my opinion is relatively simple and straightforward.  Having heard a few high quality MC cartridges over the years, I honestly don't think that they are inherently sonically superior to typical MM's. 

 

The big 'problem' with MM's as I see it anyway, stems from their generally inherent high inductance coil construction, and as such are subject to the effects of 'loading' (mainly load capacitance) on the overall frequency response, especially in the treble range.  

 

This has become a bit of a specialty of mine and increasingly I am sure that many otherwise worthwhile reviews do not take into account the importance of optimised load capacitance with 'typical' MM cartridges.  

 

My at times, tortuous work with several popular MM cartridges has left me in no doubt of this.  I am also of the opinion that MM's 'tend' to be better 'trackers' than MC's in general terms.  Regards, Felix.    

Edited December 30, 2016 by catman

[aussievintage]

13 hours ago, catman said:

 Having heard a few high quality MC cartridges over the years, I honestly don't think that they are inherently sonically superior to typical MM's. 

 

 

I agree.  Do not "upgrade" to moving coil because of the perception that it's what is required to have a "high-end" system. There was, maybe still is, a 'cult' thing that happens in hifi circles, and many see MC as the holy-grail.  It isn't.   One of the reasons this happens is that MC carts tend to be better made and so perform very well, and they can do this because they can ask a higher price.  However, there is no reason the same careful design, directed at a MM cartridge,  might not result in just as good quality and performance.

 

Change to MC if you hear one that has the sound you want, but also, alternatively change to a different MM for the same reasons.

[krebetman]

18 hours ago, andyr said:

 
Reading the specs on your Plinius 9200, it seems it can accommodate typical LOMCs of 0.3 - 0.5mV output.  So you can choose either MM/MI or LOMC.
 

 

Note that the 9200 doesn't have adjustments for resistive or capacitive loading, only gain.

So if you want to go LOMC you can either ignore loading, go for an external step up, or fashion some external loading plugs.

I made some external resistive plugs to play with and have left it at that for now because i am pretty happy with the sound (or have cloth ears). [emoji6]



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Edited December 31, 2016 by krebetman

[SAVI Systems]

G'day all, I realise that this general subject is frequently discussed with often very polarised opinions, but my opinion is relatively simple and straightforward.  Having heard a few high quality MC cartridges over the years, I honestly don't think that they are inherently sonically superior to typical MM's. 
 
The big 'problem' with MM's as I see it anyway, stems from their generally inherent high inductance coil construction, and as such are subject to the effects of 'loading' (mainly load capacitance) on the overall frequency response, especially in the treble range.  
 
This has become a bit of a specialty of mine and increasingly I am sure that many otherwise worthwhile reviews do not take into account the importance of optimised load capacitance with 'typical' MM cartridges.  
 
My at times, tortuous work with several popular MM cartridges has left me in no doubt of this.  I am also of the opinion that MM's 'tend' to be better 'trackers' than MC's in general terms.  Regards, Felix.    

Yes, well said. [emoji2]

[Tasebass]

18 hours ago, catman said:

  Having heard a few high quality MC cartridges over the years, I honestly don't think that they are inherently sonically superior to typical MM's. 

 

 

having lived with a few High Quality MC's now, I know of no MM that comes close to a top flight MC

 

An Ortofon 2M Black will not match a DV XV1s for example.....Yes MM's can sound great but they are sonically inferior to Top flight MC's

 

Tase.

[Tasebass]

On 30/12/2016 at 3:19 PM, blakey72 said:

I've always had MM carts but have been looking at MC's lately, particularly the Hana range. 

 

What is the difference sound wise? The MC's seem to be a lot more expensive on average. Are they really a better sounding cart? 

 

Blake.

 

Short answer...Yes.

Tase.

[catman]

G'day mate, well....no.  Actually that Dynavector cartridge you mentioned 'is' superb, I'll concede that and in a way the recent DV's do show how good MC's can be.  Interestingly enough earlier MC's tended to exhibit a rising high frequency response curve which was often remarked as the MC cartridge 'sound'.  One clear advantage of MC's with low inductance coils are an ultra wide bandwidth, essentially unaffected by the effects of capacitance loading. 

 

Yes MC's do have these 'advantages', but I stand by my earlier comments that MM's can sound equally wonderful 'if' set up optimally, and that cannot be assumed and/or presumed.  Regards, Felix. 

[evil c]

Have only used MC carts since 1980 - big fan and been very happy with different models from Dynavector mainly.
Seem to have better soundstage and articulation - overall more refined to my ears.
Did recently hear a MM Shure V15 mk3 with a Jiko stylus on a members deck and was highly impressed.
Might get one if I can at the right price just for comparison purposes.

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[Guest Hensa]

I think if you're playing in the sub $1k arena with a system befitting that level of cartridge, the gap between MM and MC is negligible. My Stanton 980LZS competes very well with MCs from Zyx, Benz and Hana at sub-$1k price points.

I think if you move up the scale to MCs at $2k and above, usually found on a pretty serious front end, there aren't going to be many MMs that are going to compete in terms of that final few percent of inner detail and resolution.

It's always important to have some context when talking cartridges. Putting a $4k or $5k MC on a $500 to $1k deck is simply not going to allow the MC to perform much better than a $500 to $1k MM. If you've got a state of the art front end, then it probably warrants investment in a state of the art MC. If you're running a $1k deck, try MM and MC and go with what floats your boat. As long as you enjoy what you hear, who can argue?


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[MattyW]

I think if you're playing in the sub $1k arena with a system befitting that level of cartridge, the gap between MM and MC is negligible. My Stanton 980LZS competes very well with MCs from Zyx, Benz and Hana at sub-$1k price points.

I think if you move up the scale to MCs at $2k and above, usually found on a pretty serious front end, there aren't going to be many MMs that are going to compete in terms of that final few percent of inner detail and resolution.

It's always important to have some context when talking cartridges. Putting a $4k or $5k MC on a $500 to $1k deck is simply not going to allow the MC to perform much better than a $500 to $1k MM. If you've got a state of the art front end, then it probably warrants investment in a state of the art MC. If you're running a $1k deck, try MM and MC and go with what floats your boat. As long as you enjoy what you hear, who can argue?


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Mmmm, I've a Stanton 785LZE on the way + a LPGear shibata stylus. I'm keen to hear it vs my Hana. I think you're spot on with your suggestion there. I found that the Empire 4000 D/I with Jico shibata stylus is very close indeed to my Hana EL in performance. It has made me interested in trying MM carts again.... As well as refreshed my interest in MC. The Hana was the beginning of an addiction I think ?

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[caminperth]

On 03/01/2017 at 8:16 PM, MattyW said:

 

Mmmm, I've a Stanton 785LZE on the way + a LPGear shibata stylus. I'm keen to hear it vs my Hana. I think you're spot on with your suggestion there. I found that the Empire 4000 D/I with Jico shibata stylus is very close indeed to my Hana EL in performance. It has made me interested in trying MM carts again.... As well as refreshed my interest in MC. The Hana was the beginning of an addiction I think 

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Digging up an old thread here - how did the Hana hold up?

 

On 30/12/2016 at 2:44 PM, arthur63 said:

I've also wondered about the sound of MC cartridges.

At the moment I'm using an Ortofon 2M Bronze and have the Black stylus. Very happy with the sound of the Ortofon but thought about the alternatives.

Don't forget you'll need a phono stage that can accommodate the lower output of a MC cartridge.

 

 

Did you end up trying out an MC to compare against the Ortofon combo? 

 

I'm currently using a Ortofon 2M Black and am looking to try out the Hana Shibata MC.

[MattyW]

I'm currently in the process of figuring out the resale value of my carts.... The Hana EL remains a favourite cart and won't be sold, really only bettered my my Koetsu Rosewood, Supex SD900 Rosewood and Supex SD900 Super.

Really depends on what sound you enjoy though. The Grace F9E Ruby, Stanton 785LZE and Empire 4000 D/I are amazing carts. The Empire is the only MM/MI that I've ever heard can give the three dimensional sound of an MC though it lacks in body and bass, also loses on micro detail to the other two carts mentioned.

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[caminperth]

16 minutes ago, MattyW said:

I'm currently in the process of figuring out the resale value of my carts.... The Hana EL remains a favourite cart and won't be sold, really only bettered my my Koetsu Rosewood, Supex SD900 Rosewood and Supex SD900 Super.

Really depends on what sound you enjoy though. The Grace F9E Ruby, Stanton 785LZE and Empire 4000 D/I are amazing carts. The Empire is the only MM/MI that I've ever heard can give the three dimensional sound of an MC though it lacks in body and bass, also loses on micro detail to the other two carts mentioned.

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Thanks for the quick reply. The fact that you're not selling it speaks volumes - think I'll give it a whirl.

[arthur63]

21 minutes ago, caminperth said:

 

Digging up an old thread here - how did the Hana hold up?

 

 

Did you end up trying out an MC to compare against the Ortofon combo? 

 

I'm currently using a Ortofon 2M Black and am looking to try out the Hana Shibata MC.

No, haven't done anything about this.  My main hurdle is not having a SUT or MC phono input on my pre amp.

 Are you looking at the Hana SL (low output) or SH (high output)?  Let us know how you go.

[drdarkfish]

An MC which is corretly setup, matched and loaded should sound better than a MM of comparable price and testing conditions.

 

Im highly bias, being a strong MC convert, however I'll never forget the first time I heard the magic of what a good moving coil can do.

 

There is plenty of science to argue why its better, but all I need is my ears in this regard.

[caminperth]

9 minutes ago, arthur63 said:

No, haven't done anything about this.  My main hurdle is not having a SUT or MC phono input on my pre amp.

 Are you looking at the Hana SL (low output) or SH (high output)?  Let us know how you go.

 

Not sure - my phono stage can deal with either. Which is supposed to be better?

 

7 minutes ago, drdarkfish said:

An MC which is corretly setup, matched and loaded should sound better than a MM of comparable price and testing conditions.

 

Im highly bias, being a strong MC convert, however I'll never forget the first time I heard the magic of what a good moving coil can do.

 

There is plenty of science to argue why its better, but all I need is my ears in this regard.

 

The only experience I have to date with MC is with a Denon 103R which gets a lot of love. It didn't come close to touching the 2M black in my system.

 

My current choice isn't between MM/MC as a mechanism, however I'm either going to try a Nagaoka MP500 or Hana SH/SL - which happens to be either an MM or MC...

Edited April 6, 2017 by caminperth

[MattyW]

I think its fair to say that you can get way more for your money with a MM than MC..... On the other hand once you get either a SUT or Headamp (headamp is more flexible though I still against adding solid state to my sound chain) you get better performance for the money at around the $600 with certain moving coils. Especially if you're willing to look at used carts. If you can get a Supex SD900 Super with broken cantilever for around $300 or so, snap it up. You can get a new aluminium cantilever and shibata line contact tip done by Garrot Bros for $400. This is an extremely hard cart to beat and I think the price difference between it and my Koetsu is probably not really worth it, although I'm still glad I bought it (used).

 

Here's some comparisons between my Supex SD900 Super and Koetsu Rosewood if you can stand the big download:

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/nxiyi179f46a3ij/AAC-rJ1rpSoVadlfMJy2UR1Oa?dl=0

 

Nah, the DL103R won't touch a 2M Black without extensive mods by which time it will cost more anyway. Not worth it unless you simply enjoy modding. The Hana is better.

 

 

 

Edited April 6, 2017 by MattyW

[arthur63]

1 minute ago, caminperth said:

 

Not sure - my phono stage can deal with either. Which is supposed to be better?

 

 

I've no idea, I guess if you have a MC phono input then the Hana SL would be good.

I've read that high output MC into MM phono doesn't provide the same volume as a MM cartridge would ie you need to turn the volume control higher.