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My Opinionated Proac D38 Review (long!)


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A fantastic review amfibius..........exceptionally well written, and I think you've hit the nail on the head....excitement and dynamics....like you're there.

I loved Norus' 802D's, but they just sounded a tad too 'polite' to me...Kasey was not quite as nassaly and grating as she should be.

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Well done on the review and the journey Amfibius.

It is pleasing to see you have analysed each for its merits, then justified your decisions based on your own needs and not what they'ought' to sound like. Very refreshing

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Guest alebonau

excellent read amfibius. Nice to follow the story and the decision process that brought you to the speakers you have.

Havign heard norpus' 802D and your proac's would love one day to hear the other excellent speakers you mention as having only heard soem of their poorer cousins. Looks like you had some hard choices there ! but glad you found the speaker in the end right for you.

Must have been great fun in the demoing ! :rolleyes:

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Thanks for your feedback guys.

I think I should mention that none of these speakers are truly bad. The cheapest speaker I listened to was the VAF DC-X ($2000) and stretched up to the Tannoy Kensington's, which were the most expensive ($18,000). All the others were between $9000 and $12,000.

The only speaker that stands out for "not deserving to belong in this company" is the Sonus Faber. You know how hi-fi reviewers love to say that "this $1000 speaker sounds as good as a $12,000 speaker!"? The speaker they are talking about must be the Sonus Faber. But what it lacks in sound, it makes up for in looks. These $12,000 speakers look better than some $50,000 speakers I have seen :rolleyes:

I forgot to add my thanks for the patient dealers who put up with me (and did not end up with a sale). Tivoli Audio for the Sonus Faber and B&W's, Caxton Audio for the Quads, Carlton A/V for the Dynaudio's and the PMC's, VAF for the VAF's, Audiophile for the Tannoy's, and Livingstone for the ProAc's.

Mondie, the Cary CAD-805AE is a single ended triode design. One of the more powerful ones for your money (50W per monoblock). These things easily sound more powerful than either of my other amps (Yamaha RX-V1600 and Pioneer A-400) both of which are rated to deliver more power. I did not go amplifier shopping at all. I knew what I wanted (from previous listening) and went straight for it without any shopping. So unfortunately there is no review to be written there. Unless you want to hear me compare the Cary against the Yamaha or the Pioneer which is completely unfair.

The other thing to remember with SET's is that they produce a very distinctive sound which is suitable for only certain types of music. I am anticipating that Rick S will jump in and say that they are hopelessly coloured. Truth be told, the SET design should be even more hopelessly coloured than most valve designs. But it is colouration which I happen to like.

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thankyou amfibious,

that is PRECISELY the sort of post I love to read when I can't get to sleep, erudite, interesting and informative. Sometimes a quick check of 'view new posts' just ends up with a wink or a one word comment, it was lovely to have something to 'sink our teeth into'.

Read the review you posted on them ( soundstage) and noted the reviewers comments about the power of the amps he used with them. Have you yet felt that, especially with say Wagner, Mahler or Bruckner that you'd like just a tad more power than the Cary's give?

By the way, when did you get these speakers? Are they still improving?

lots of love

terry

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G'day,

Very informative and entertaining review, Amfibius.

I myself went through a very long auditioning process. The speakers I listened to were not in the same league financially (although I did demo the B&W 802), and in the end I decided that a neutral, detailed, and dynamic sound is what I was after. Hence the Equinox Apogees, and even with these speakers there are some compromises I had to make (and there were a lot of speakers that I wanted to listen to but did not get a chance: Osborn, Whatmough, Legend, Elac, etc).

Then came the agonizing choice of amplification -- how do you best drive speakers that are efficient, yet present a very unfriendly 2.5 ohm load? In the end I opted for the ME850HC, based on my experiences with the ME550-II, and of course the designer's recommendation. But there's still lots of amps I haven't listened to -- the Elektras, valve monoblocks, etc -- some of which may not be suitable for the Apogees anyway.

And I have even less experience with pre-amps!

So as the hour of delivery draws nigh, I trust (fingers crossed) that I've made the right decision, and can be as happy with my system as you appear to be with yours.

--Geoff

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Great review Amfibius.

As my next major upgrade will be speakers, this made for some great reading.

Can't wait to try a heap of different speakers next time round, even though i am fairly sure of what i want funds permiting

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Great review Amfibius.

As my next major upgrade will be speakers, this made for some great reading.

Can't wait to try a heap of different speakers next time round, even though i am fairly sure of what i want funds permiting [/b]

Its definately what the review section is good for. Its good for people who will be looking at items in the future, as it can give them an idea of what they can expect from those goods.

Just curious as to what price range and what items you will be looking at in the future JohnA? Are any of the above on your list?

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Its definately what the review section is good for. Its good for people who will be looking at items in the future, as it can give them an idea of what they can expect from those goods.

Just curious as to what price range and what items you will be looking at in the future JohnA? Are any of the above on your list?

[/b]

like i said, depends on funds, will most likely be purchasing them from the states, as i currently have friends living there, who will be coming back to Australia is 2-3years time.

So shipping nor duties will be an issue.

$20k would be the maximum on a pair of fronts though

I am a huge B&W fan, love the sound so realy no need to tell yo which ones i want, but i would still like to listen to others in that price range

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Great review Amfibius.

As my next major upgrade will be speakers, this made for some great reading.

Can't wait to try a heap of different speakers next time round, even though i am fairly sure of what i want funds permiting

[/b]

Oh oh

.. but will they be B&W's again I wonder, or will you be strong and break with tradition? :biggrin:

And will you get a third identical for the centre?? :ohmy:

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Oh oh

.. but will they be B&W's again I wonder, or will you be strong and break with tradition? :biggrin:

And will you get a third identical for the centre?? :ohmy:

[/b]

hmmm 3 snails sitting in a row :ohmy:

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Thanks for your responses everyone.

Norpus sent me a PM asking me if I listened to the 802D's or the N802's. I have mentioned elsewhere that these speakers were $15,000 at Tivoli Hi-Fi, and Norpus pointed out that at the price these are more likely N802's. To be honest I really do not remember ... I just remember that they were B&W 802's! I wasn't aware that there was a difference. I do remember that they had the diamond dome tweeter though. So yeah, they might be the N802's.

terry I have never tried the ProAc's with anything other than the Cary's and my Yamaha receiver which I hooked up out of curiosity. I think that the Yamaha RX-V1600 is capable of 120W / channel output in Class AB. So easily double the rated power of the Cary. The Cary's still sounded more powerful with much better bass than the Yamaha. If someone is willing to bring over a power amplifier we could experiment to see what happens with powerful solid state amplification.

I think my review should be taken with a pinch of salt. I did not try ANY other music apart from the type of music I listen to. As we all know, speakers are very music dependent and my opinions only reflect my particular biases and preferences in music. I suspect that many of you are already thinking this but are too polite to say it :rolleyes:

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Thanks Amfibius

I believe these N802 were the ones you auditioned - still for sale at Tivoli at $15995 ($3K off rrp for N802)

They look similar but do not have the diamond tweeter (they have the older metal dome tweeter) and a few other minor upgrades I understand.

http://www.bwspeakers.com/downloadFile/spe...0802%20specs%22

http://www.tivolihifi.com.au/specials.htm

I see there are some Wilson Audio Sophias at same price. Would love to hear them, as I was mighty impressed with the larger Wilsons - best I have ever experienced (even if rather ugly)

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Thanks Amfibius

I believe these N802 were the ones you auditioned - still for sale at Tivoli at $15995 ($3K off rrp for N802)

They look similar but do not have the diamond tweeter and a few other minor upgrades I understand.

http://www.bwspeakers.com/downloadFile/spe...0802%20specs%22

http://www.tivolihifi.com.au/specials.htm

I see there are some Wilson Audio Sophias at same price. Would love to hear them, as I was mighty impressed with the larger Wilsons - best I have ever experienced (even if rather ugly)

[/b]

spot on, for $15000 they would be the N802's as the 802D (diamond) are $22000

i believe it was mainly the tweeter and x-over changes between the 2, i could be wrong however

I think my review should be taken with a pinch of salt. I did not try ANY other music apart from the type of music I listen to. As we all know, speakers are very music dependent and my opinions only reflect my particular biases and preferences in music. I suspect that many of you are already thinking this but are too polite to say it :rolleyes:

[/b]

and thats the whole point in auditioning speakers, to hear them with the music you enjoy, not the cd's the salesmen have on hand to make them sound great.

As you said at the start of your review, this is based on your experiance and listening tests.

Its got nothing to do with us been polite, and i'm sure no one here will run out and purchase the same equipment based on your review alone, well if they did then maybe you could ask for a comission :biggrin:

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Thanks for your responses everyone.

Norpus sent me a PM asking me if I listened to the 802D's or the N802's. I have mentioned elsewhere that these speakers were $15,000 at Tivoli Hi-Fi, and Norpus pointed out that at the price these are more likely N802's. To be honest I really do not remember ... I just remember that they were B&W 802's! I wasn't aware that there was a difference. I do remember that they had the diamond dome tweeter though. So yeah, they might be the N802's.

terry I have never tried the ProAc's with anything other than the Cary's and my Yamaha receiver which I hooked up out of curiosity. I think that the Yamaha RX-V1600 is capable of 120W / channel output in Class AB. So easily double the rated power of the Cary. The Cary's still sounded more powerful with much better bass than the Yamaha. If someone is willing to bring over a power amplifier we could experiment to see what happens with powerful solid state amplification.

I think my review should be taken with a pinch of salt. I did not try ANY other music apart from the type of music I listen to. As we all know, speakers are very music dependent and my opinions only reflect my particular biases and preferences in music. I suspect that many of you are already thinking this but are too polite to say it :rolleyes:

[/b]

Well done Amfibius, great analysis. Entertaining too.

I have done some speaker evaluationsi the near and recent past (with different musical preferences to yours) and interestingly came up with the same impressions as you for the speakers that I listened to (the Dynaudios, ProAcs, B&W 802 plus the Wilson Audio Sophia (Mk 1)).

I haven't bought anything yet and have started the rounds again listening to local manufacturers, starting with the Big Reds from Legend Acoustics. During that demo and subsequent emails with the designer (Dr Rob Crawford) it struck me that I wasn't after accuracy or true hi fidelity, I was after my definition of what music sounds like to my ears and in my head.

A nice touch to mention the good work the dealers did assisting with your purchase. Gives us buyers confidence to work with them all going forward.

Thanks again and happy listening!

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Well done Amfibius, great analysis. Entertaining too.

I have done some speaker evaluationsi the near and recent past (with different musical preferences to yours) and interestingly came up with the same impressions as you for the speakers that I listened to (the Dynaudios, ProAcs, B&W 802 plus the Wilson Audio Sophia (Mk 1)).

I haven't bought anything yet and have started the rounds again listening to local manufacturers, starting with the Big Reds from Legend Acoustics. During that demo and subsequent emails with the designer (Dr Rob Crawford) it struck me that I wasn't after accuracy or true hi fidelity, I was after my definition of what music sounds like to my ears and in my head.

A nice touch to mention the good work the dealers did assisting with your purchase. Gives us buyers confidence to work with them all going forward.

Thanks again and happy listening!

[/b]

Interesting to read that some people are after a little coloration. I guess all speakers have some coloration or they would all sound the same.

Wadiaman, do you intend on listening to any other aussie speakers? Pehaps Osborn Grand Monuments, Aslan Austals or the Equinox Galaxy's when they are completed?

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hi wadia man

don't the big reds run the deqx? If so dial in exactly as much inaccuracy as you want when you want!! Then go back to accurate. Wonder in the long run what the preference will be.

Plus what drizt said

lots of love

terry

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Interesting to read that some people are after a little coloration. I guess all speakers have some coloration or they would all sound the same.

Wadiaman, do you intend on listening to any other aussie speakers? Pehaps Osborn Grand Monuments, Aslan Austals or the Equinox Galaxy's when they are completed?

[/b]

Apart from the price of those mentioned, I am somewhat restricted by the physical placement optins in my (albeit) large room and would be worried that the Grand Monument or Galaxy would be just too physically imposing. I do want to keep the cost under $20K, but would at least like to listen to the Whatmough Paragons as well.

Having never heard of Aslan Acoustics until finding Mondie's review yesterday, I must admit to being very tempted by the description of the Australis. The concept of powered stereo subs overcomes the weakness of my tube amp in bass depth and speed, retain the warm mid range, I get to keep the ribbon tweeter smoothess that I am used to and overall get a fuller sound for some of the cues and atmosphere you give up with bookshelf speakers in a large open space. And they look stunning!

hi wadia man

don't the big reds run the deqx? If so dial in exactly as much inaccuracy as you want when you want!! Then go back to accurate. Wonder in the long run what the preference will be.

Plus what drizt said

lots of love

terry

[/b]

Hi Terry,

Yep, the Big Reds did run through the DEQX. For a simple fellow like myself, talk about complicated! I would probably prefer to buy something straight out that I like, then after getting used to the sound and nuances, add on the DEQX for room equalisation rather than tonal colorations.

While I like the concept of the Big Reds, the sound (perhaps it was the Chord solid state electronics) just didn't make my feet tap. Wasn't as involving as I prefer my 'house sound' to be.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Good review Amfibius :wink: Could you tell me what you reckon about the B&W 701 ?[/b]

701's? Don't know ... I think I was listening to the 703's. But having said that, I have already been caught out by Norpus for reviewing the wrong speaker so I won't make the same mistake again! The "other" B&W's I listened to were much of the same, but with poorer imaging, a less substantial speaker cabinet, and less bass.

If you like the B&W house sound the 703's were pretty good. But I never quite got into that kind of sound, so YMMV.

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Good review Amfibius :wink: Could you tell me what you reckon about the B&W 701 ?

Thanks

[/b]

you might have meant 703 as there is no 701.

They are nowere in he same league as the 802D's but if i were to chose between the 703 or the 804 i would take the 703 which i did.

The only similarities between the 703 and 802 is the FST driver, but then thats different as well. The 802 and above use the marlin head to mount the fst midrange, which supposidly makes it even better.

the difference between the 703 and 804 is the cabinet, different woofers (same size) and x-over design, sound wise though i couldn't tell them apart so chose the 703.

The other problem with the 703 is if you are also going to use them for HT, is to find a matching centre. in the 700 series the is no centre speaker with the fst driver, so you need to move up to the 800 series centre or fight like a dog to get a 3rd 703 to use as centre, which is what i did.

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